| 29 APR 2009 at 3:11pm |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 2:35pm)
However, this is just an impression gleaned from a short exposure, and primed by all the criticism leveled at the voice acting. English is my native language as well, and I did not notice the flaws in translation. Obvious sloppiness on my part, I know.
Well it's not flawed in the sense that, say, Ghost in the Sheet was flawed. I mean it all makes sense. But most of it you could never imagine anyone actually saying in English.
To take some examples from the youtube clip, the steward's first line is:
"I wish you a wonderful day, my good lady. How may I be of service?"
If someone said that to you in real life you'd assume they were being condescending. It makes technical sense, and the actor delivers it as best he can but if you want to be formal why not have him say simply "Good day. How may I be of service?" Even that would probably sound too stuffy to be plausible, nowadays. But at least it wouldn't sound mad.
Later when Nina's talking to the man who was eavesdropping she says. "A tragic story. Did you know the man?" No-one would enter a conversation by responding like that. You'd say "Yes, tragic wasn't it?" or "Yes... Oh god, you didn't know him did you?"
It's nitpicking, yes. But when almost every single line is off kilter like that all the nitpicks add up to an actual problem.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 3:50pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Speaking of nitpicking, a female friend of mine that saw the video, had some very unflattering comments to make about Nina's derriere :...
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| 29 APR 2009 at 3:52pm |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | lol. Even I wouldn't stop playing a game for that reason.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 3:59pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By richmcd (29 APR 2009 3:10pm)
Well it's not flawed in the sense that, say, Ghost in the Sheet was flawed. I mean it all makes sense. But most of it you could never imagine anyone actually saying in English.
To take some examples from the youtube clip, the steward's first line is:
"I wish you a wonderful day, my good lady. How may I be of service?" .
Hey, the guy heard late last night that he had won the Lotto, so he's feeling top of the world this morning, resulting in flowery speech....
Later when Nina's talking to the man who was eavesdropping she says. "A tragic story. Did you know the man?" No-one would enter a conversation by responding like that. You'd say "Yes, tragic wasn't it?" or "Yes... Oh god, you didn't know him did you?"
Well, I've listened to that one again now, specially for you, richmcd, and ...hmmmmm... well, if you hadn't pointed it out, I wouldn't really have found it all that unnatural. She had just heard the whole story about the accident, and the other character adresses her and says: " Excuse me for overhearing and barging in, but you were talking about the accident at the harbour just now" ; and she replies: "A tragic story. Did you know the man?" Hmmmm - it might depend on my character's personality how he/she responds. A non-commital type of person, might quite possibly respond in such a fashion. It sounds more hard-assed and less friendly, than replying with a positive "yes".
I suppose it depends on the tone you want to achieve.
EDIT: Yes, I had also noticed the new Nina's VERY broad behind... She has grown older, see? [smiley=angel_smiley.gif]
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| 29 APR 2009 at 4:08pm |
karlaAdministrator
Posts : 2593
Joined: 27 JUL 2003
Location: US, Close to the Edge
Status : Offline | Thanks for posting the links, Jenny100. I've just watched both videos, and I think Nina's voice has definitely improved in the second game. She no longer sounds like a pre-pubescent Valley Girl to me.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 4:38pm |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | I agree that very defensive or incredibly aloof is the best way to try and deliver that line but I don't think adding a "Yes" would ever make a reading by an average voice talent less natural, so why not put it in to be safe? Or a "That's" - "That's tragic, did you know the man?" Anyway, cautious/defensive wasn't the delivery here, and I don't think it's my job as a player to reimagine the delivery so that it makes sense.
As the translator, why make it difficult by trying to preserve pronouns/articles from the original? (Nina, like many other AG characters I've noticed, uses the "a certain [name]" construction - "...there's a suitcase belonging to a certain William Patterson..." which is surely very rare in casual English, especially for young people. Just drop "certain" or replace it with "Mr." or "Mrs" or even nothing and it sounds much better in 99% of cases. Again, it's never going to sound worse) It would be hard to screw up the readings of my alternatives, but to make the originals make sense is going to take some very good acting which game designers can't count on. Seems better to play it safe.
Anyway, the point seems to be that I notice these sorts of stupid things more than others. Which clearly isn't a good thing as I'd definitely enjoy games a whole lot more if I wasn't constantly flung from immersion by all the dialogue I imagine to be jarring.
And it seems like maybe developers, after getting a translation done, should give it to someone as hypercritical as me to check it over because it's unlikely to hurt and it may just make things a whole lot better (and really, by editors' standards, I'm pretty lax!). I'd do the first game for free
The next adventure game I play that I enjoy I'm going to post all the things I loved about it here to try and compensate for all my grouchiness. I really do enjoy some. Honest. :
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| 29 APR 2009 at 5:27pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By richmcd (29 APR 2009 4:38pm)
Anyway, the point seems to be that I notice these sorts of stupid things more than others. Which clearly isn't a good thing as I'd definitely enjoy games a whole lot more if I wasn't constantly flung from immersion by all the dialogue I imagine to be jarring.
Perhaps this is what they refer to as "Writer's Cramp"?? :
Just teasing! Sorry.
Well, yes, I do think you are probably more "nitpicky" than the average gamer, richmcd, as you obviously dissect every line of dialogue from a writer's point of view.
Unfortunately I have to grudgingly agree with you, though, that the language used does seem to be a bit "stilted". It's as if it was translated by a German person (the game's language of origin, IIRC), whose staple source of "practise" in English, was Victorian novels and/or early 20th century literature...
This would have been perfect in a game that was actually set in that era, but if spoken by modern young people, I suppose it can... mumble mumble
*cough* ..but er.. well- it will be all your fault if that realisation ruins the game for me... [smiley=whistle.gif]
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| 29 APR 2009 at 5:33pm |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | Hehe. Sorry. It didn't occur to me that my hypercritical disease could possibly be infectious. If only I could catch me some of that "Easy-to-Pleaseness" you mentioned before
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| 29 APR 2009 at 7:40pm |
| Deleted User | ~~ Richmcd ~~
I haven't got the time &/or energy to refute all your various criticisms --- I am at present beta testing 2 games and expecting another.
Apart from a couple of extremely questionable nitpicks, your severe attacks on the demo are all subjective opinions and not facts.
Being new here, you may or may not know that I have beta tested and written walkthroughs for dozens of games !
But I have no idea who you are, what your background is, either in your expertise of English or deep knowledge &/or love of Quest Adventures.
As a newbie to this Forum, I do not know whether you have been here before or are possibly somebody from another Forum. Nor do I know whether you have any special agenda or axe to grind, or whether you prefer FPS’s or RPG’s or whatever rather than Adventures --- which very many people do and with perfect right !
Please excuse my skepticism, but these sort of things have happened both here and elsewhere.
I would hopefully suggest that you desist from trashing in advance a game which is at the least very well above average, and attempting to instill a negative impression into people who have not yet played it.
This has happened before and I hope it is not the case here.
I may be wrong, but you sound to me like one or two reviewers and critics who have tried to run down some other games --- for various motives !
As mentioned above, I am too tied up to continue this debate.
Whilst you are correct that to develop games which are rubbish greatly harms the genre, please do not go to the opposite extreme ! [size=14]Constructive criticism of Adventures, is helpful… providing that it is factual and not purely subjective.
But there isn’t a game which has appeared during the last few years which can’t be torn to shreds over some real or imaginary shortcomings or personal dislike(s) or other.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 8:25pm |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | I accept that you're busy so I don't expect a response, but I will respond to that last post, because I think it's grossly unfair.
Firstly, I fail to see what your background in beta-testing has to do with anything. And I fail to see why my points need to be judged based on my background, which is basically non-existent. They're very specific, especially the ones about the translation. I'd have hoped they spoke for themselves.
As it is Adventures are my favourite genre and I have no particular axe to grind except that I think that by rights there ought to be a lot more great adventures then there are and I can't for the life of me understand why there aren't.
I accept that a lot of my points are subjective but I really don't think my criticism of the translation is. I think the translation's as close to objectively awkward as you can get without getting philosophical about objective/subjective divides. And I thought my criticism was constructive - I pointed out lines which are clearly non-idiomatic English and suggested reasonable and more naturalistic alternatives; what could be more constructive than that?
You, on the other hand, have done nothing to support your points. You've reiterated that the game is "above average" without particularly explaining how the game achieves this. I'm sorry, but simply asserting that a game is "entertaining and absorbing" isn't a very compelling argument. And why am I not allowed to make subjective criticisms but you insist on mounting a purely subjective defence? Your only other defences have been personal attacks - you implied that my opinion was less worthy because of my age and questioned my motivations.
I sincerely hope that no-one is put off trying the game as a result of my comments, but I very much doubt that anyone would be. Even if people accept my points about the translation it's abundantly clear that this doesn't make that much difference to a lot of players.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 8:38pm |
| Deleted User | Len, I was just lightly teasing a young gentleman who is obviously being a bit too critical, but surely does not desreve such a harsh personal attack! Don't you think it's better to err on the side of caution if you don't know a person, than to immediately assume the worst about him, and accuse him of all kinds of things that you are not even sure of?
I fully understand why you feel protective of the game, and yes- it's true that people should not base conclusions purely on the demo; and I for one am certainly not convinced that the dialogue is bad enough to make any significant difference in my experience of the game.
Admit that at least the stewards dialogue does sound slightly unnatural, and I was just smiling a bit at that - but that does not have to detract hugely from the game at all!
Perhaps I should not have reluctantly acceded some points to richmcd, but he was putting his point across so eloquently, that I didn't think much harm done to accede his minor point or two, in a not-too-serious manner.
Personally, I am not that easily swayed, and will definitely still be purchasing this game, which does, by all accounts seem like one of the better offerings coming our way.
But Len, I really think you have acted too abrasively to a complete stranger, with nothing to bolster your accusations.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 8:49pm |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | Oh dear. I've caused a ruckus.
See the problem is my only experience of non-fiction writing is from my essay writing days at Uni. So I've get this crazy professorial tone of voice going on that's extra precise and humourless. But if I don't do that none of my points come out clearly and I get a rambling mess. And I'd hope it was clear that I'm passionate about Adventure Games, or why would I bother writing so much about them? I never mean anything personally and I always try and back up what I say if it's not entirely subjective or silly and I'm perfectly prepared to take as good as I give. Still, I'll try and tone it down.
Thank you for coming to my aid, TheTraveler. Any and all teasing is welcomed
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| 29 APR 2009 at 9:00pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By richmcd (29 APR 2009 8:49pm)
Oh dear. I've caused a ruckus.
Nah, relax about that.
Debate is always a good thing, but one can always endeavour to keep it polite, can one not? Well, you certainly seemed to remain polite enough, richmcd, so that was not the problem, if you know what I mean.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 9:19pm |
SteveSpace Cadet
Posts : 112
Joined: 3 DEC 2003
Status : Offline | After completing the fairly long demo, I was wondering if I would be able to use my save files for when I get the full version. I will assume the answer is yes unless somebody here knows otherwise?
Don't really want to redo everything from the start again, although I did enjoy it all
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| 29 APR 2009 at 9:23pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | In my posts I didn't comment on Rich's "attack" on SF: PC, since I myself have not even played the demo. However, none of his criticisms concerning the translation are "subjective", he had perfectly valid examples. I did agree that many adventure games developed by non-native English speaking studios have translations that often feel forced and/or awkward without being actually wrong, and I can offer examples of that. The one that springs to mind is a line in Art of Murder FBI Confidential, where Nicole comments upon seeing the photos of some crooks "I'm investigating these dark characters". Dark characters? Surely "shady" is a much better translation? I also agree (or think, I can't remember if Rich made this point) that it shouldn't be hard for a company to hire a competent translator rather than someone who can simply understand English to handle the translation.
Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 8:37pm)
it's true that people should not base conclusions purely on the demo;
Why? What is a demo for, if not to entice a potential customer? Reason dictates that to this end, a demo showcases the game's most appealing features, so if it is underwhelming, why would anyone conclude that the actual game will be better?
As for criticism based on subjective criteria, it can be, and often is, taken to ridiculous extremes, but games are entertainment products (or art pieces), not mathematical principles. Consequently, the reactions to them can be nothing but subjective, and a lot depends on how well one presents one's point of view. I'm sorry Len, but I think Rich has managed far better than you in that regard.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 9:25pm |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | It looks like the game will install to a different folder, but as long as you copy the .sav file across I imagine it should work.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 9:52pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (29 APR 2009 9:23pm)
Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 8:37pm)
it's true that people should not base conclusions purely on the demo;
Why? What is a demo for, if not to entice a potential customer? Reason dictates that to this end, a demo showcases the game's most appealing features, so if it is underwhelming, why would anyone conclude that the actual game will be better?
True, -it stands to reason, but reason unfortunately does not always prevail. ..and what is appealing to one person might be poison to another, as this whole "Nina's voice" debacle clearly illustrates. Some people hated the first voice and love the second, or vice versa, or hates both, or loves both, (or are reasonably indifferent, like me..) :
I have often recieved the wrong impression (either to the positive or to the negative side) of a game from a demo. It is for this reason that I regard a demo merely as an additional tool, in addition to the even more flawed tools such as reviews and previews, and the slightly better sources such as other gamer's opinions to help me form a preconception of a game.
Certainly it can give you a general idea, and can tell you if if there are going to be aspects so jarring that you know you will end up hating the game.
Yet, I stand by my opinion that it is just as unfair to diss a game as a whole, purely based on the demo, as to diss a game (as a whole) that you have started and only played half-way. In such cases, I will perhaps comment on the parts that irritated me, or the parts that I liked, but I don't feel qualified to comment on a game as a whole until I have played the entire thing.
That is what I had meant. I might have elucidated that better, -but there I have hopefully explained myself a bit more... -extensively now.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 10:09pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 9:52pm)
I have often recieved the wrong impression (either to the positive or to the negative side) of a game from a demo.
It depends on what you mean by wrong impression. If you thought the demo sucked but the game rocked, then the demo clearly failed. If on the other hand, you found the demo exciting but the game boring, then the demo did exactly what it is supposed to do.
So, how many times have you liked a game, when the demo bored you?
Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 9:52pm)
I have hopefully explained myself a bit more... -extensively now.
You, extensively? Madam, you are the soul of brevity .
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| 29 APR 2009 at 10:30pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (29 APR 2009 10:09pm)
So, how many times have you liked a game, when the demo bored you?
At least 3 times, that I can remember did I not buy a game based on the demo, only to find when I actually played the game that I preferred the aspects not available in the demo. I have even ended up loving at least 2 games that I had originally rejected because of the demo. Has this seriously NEVER happened to you?
Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 9:52pm)
I have hopefully explained myself a bit more... -extensively now.
You, extensively? Madam, you are the soul of brevity .
Of course.
[smiley=angel.gif] I appreciate the acknowledgement, since I try....
If on the other hand, you found the demo exciting but the game boring, then the demo did exactly what it is supposed to do.
Ah, Nik, that infectious black humour of yours.... you have stated very effectively exactly my feelings about the intended function of demos..
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| 29 APR 2009 at 11:03pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 10:30pm)
Has this seriously NEVER happened to you?
Only once, and interestingly enough it had to do with the game's voice work . Or has everyone but me forgot the Vampyre Story demo debacle? It was a clear screw up from Autumn Moon, and kudos to them for not paying a heavy price for it, but I wouldn't have shed any tears if they had.
On the other hand, there have been a few demos that made me believe the finished game will be outstanding but wasn't. Dracula Origin comes to mind, not that I didn't like it, but the demo featured the best section of the game IMHO, just as a demo should. It would interest me a great deal which games you rejected due to their demos, but turned out to love them once you got the full versions.
Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 APR 2009 9:52pm)
Ah, Nik, that infectious black humour of yours....
The only people laughing in such situations are the publishers... all the way to the bank.
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| 29 APR 2009 at 11:35pm |
mclaugbIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 56
Joined: 10 DEC 2005
Status : Online | I wish I was as eloquent at 24, although I do hope LenG is proved right when I finally get my hands on the game the week after next...
Originally Posted By richmcd (29 APR 2009 8:25pm)
I accept that you're busy so I don't expect a response, but I will respond to that last post, because I think it's grossly unfair.
Firstly, I fail to see what your background in beta-testing has to do with anything. And I fail to see why my points need to be judged based on my background, which is basically non-existent. They're very specific, especially the ones about the translation. I'd have hoped they spoke for themselves.
As it is Adventures are my favourite genre and I have no particular axe to grind except that I think that by rights there ought to be a lot more great adventures then there are and I can't for the life of me understand why there aren't.
I accept that a lot of my points are subjective but I really don't think my criticism of the translation is. I think the translation's as close to objectively awkward as you can get without getting philosophical about objective/subjective divides. And I thought my criticism was constructive - I pointed out lines which are clearly non-idiomatic English and suggested reasonable and more naturalistic alternatives; what could be more constructive than that?
You, on the other hand, have done nothing to support your points. You've reiterated that the game is "above average" without particularly explaining how the game achieves this. I'm sorry, but simply asserting that a game is "entertaining and absorbing" isn't a very compelling argument. And why am I not allowed to make subjective criticisms but you insist on mounting a purely subjective defence? Your only other defences have been personal attacks - you implied that my opinion was less worthy because of my age and questioned my motivations.
I sincerely hope that no-one is put off trying the game as a result of my comments, but I very much doubt that anyone would be. Even if people accept my points about the translation it's abundantly clear that this doesn't make that much difference to a lot of players.
"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." L.P. Hartley
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| 30 APR 2009 at 1:19am |
| Deleted User | (1) Only to clarify a point --- I have just now downloaded the demo, made a couple of saves and transferred to my copy of the full game.
They work excellently there ! The saves are of a more complex form than usual including date, time, and a code (e.g., my first one is 2009-04-30_01-12_MMBQW.sav). Nevertheless they transferred perfectly well !
Please do not take this as a 100% certain, however.
The first retail samples of the finished game were received at Kochmedia from the plant (whatever that means exactly ) on 21st April and I received one by airmail from Europe 6 days later..
I think that this is the version which will be on sale everywhere and if so the demo saves will be transferable, but I cannot positively guarantee that.
(2) To those who accuse me of also answering merely subjectively :-
This can develop into a general debate as to whether ANYTHING connected with Computer games is TOTALLY objective.
But in my case, it’s a fact that I spent MANY dozens of hours beta testing the game. My testing is always slow and over perfectionist (--- 'references' supplied if necessary). Hence I DO know the game well --- its strengths & weaknesses !
Many alterations and improvements were submitted and, as always, the vast majority were implemented… although not all !
(3) I do not imply that the above (2) makes SF-2 a good game… and as I said, I am not going to argue the toss.
On the other hand, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION it IS a good game --- warts and all !
I do NOT imply that it is a FABULOUS or FANTASTIC game or one of the best ever, etc.
It is just a darned good enjoyable relaxing romp of a third person sort of thriller, with little bits of good humour thrown in here & there --- it flows and is absorbing.
IMHO it is very well worth playing... and that is good enough for me !
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| 30 APR 2009 at 2:36am |
richmcdIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 64
Joined: 17 APR 2009
Status : Online | You don't seem to be talking about subjectivity. Rather you seem to be talking about superficiality.
I'll cheerfully accept that my experience of the game was extremely superficial. I played it for an hour, didn't much like it and then spent four times as long on here bitching about it. Your experience, on the other hand, was obviously extremely in-depth. The superficiality of my experience is a perfectly good reason to take it with a pinch of salt. If you [were to suggest] the plot gets better after I stopped playing then I [wouldn't be able to] argue with you.
But that has nothing to do with subjectivity/objectivity. You simply didn't provide any concrete examples to back up your points, that's why they were subjective. Unless your undoubted expertise as a beta-tester is supposed to be evidence in and of itself? But if that's the case then I must be under a serious misapprehension of the role of beta-testers. Surely you'd have to spend just as long on the game if you didn't much like it? It sounds like a rewarding job, though. My envy is unbounded.
**Edit - I edited the sentence with the square brackets because originally it seemed like a misquote of LenG, rather than something hypothetical (as discussed a few posts down).**
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| 30 APR 2009 at 6:15am |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | I haven't played the demo yet, actually, I haven't been able to find the technical specs to see if I have a computer it will run on, so I'll limit myself to comments based on what little I've been shown. Some of the phrases used in the trailer aren't ones that I would expect to hear often, although that one about "A certain [name]" is one that is just about plausible in the context I've seen it used.
Some of the other lines presented here, admittedly, are not ones I would ever expect to hear spoken. At least, not in the country I'm in, and I very much suspect not in the US either. As for if this is important, well, I tend to ignore that kind of thing.
Having compared the voice acting between Nina in the first game and in the trailer, I have to admit that I prefer the latter.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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