Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (1 APR 2009 10:34pm)

Look at RPGs.  1-2 blockbusters a year and 1-2 indies a year.  

Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (1 APR 2009 10:34pm)

Look at RPGs.  1-2 blockbusters a year and 1-2 indies a year.  

Currently, the Xbox 360 has a total of 18 RPGs released. Now, let's take a look at the upcoming releases from now until the end of the year:

Operation Darkness: June
Spectral Force 3: July
Tales of Vesperia: August
Infinite Undiscovery: September
Fallout 3: October
Fable 2: October
Two Worlds: The Temptation : November
Rise of the Argonauts: Fall 2008

That is 8 RPGs to be released in the next 7 months, an average of about 1 per month. This is not a bad ratio at all. Now, those 8 RPGs will bring the total number of RPGs on 360 to 26. 26 for Xbox 360 versus 9 for PlayStation 3. Now, obviously it's not fair to compare it like that since the Xbox 360 was released a year earlier. Instead, let's count the number of RPGs that were released on the 360 within the first 2 years of its release. That gives a total of 13 RPGs, still more than the PS3's "tentative" 9. We also can't forget that to "catch up" to the Xbox 360's total number of RPGs after 3 years (26), the PS3 will need to have 17 RPGs released in 2009. It's possible that this could happen but it is highly unlikely.

Originally Posted By loobiloo (1 APR 2009 10:07pm)


As far as core gameplay issues & replayability/extensibility - these are all issues I would associate with other genres where there is lack of content & repetitiveness where variants & add ons have to be considered to prolong their playing life.

So comparing CRPGs to AGs is like comparing a single egg to an entire menu of egg recipes. In some cases those menus are nearly infinite and you can keep enjoying them for many years without paying another dime.

Sorry, -can't agree with you there. I want all my gaming elements AS WELL AS  a strong story.  Can't see why it can't be done.  People who want only puzzles can use software like Braintrainer and the like.  There is already a huge market for casual games. Don't water down our traditional AG's; the casual market already fills the gap that you describe as: "AGs marketed as such would have not to have hard puzzles, especially slider and such, or stealth/action elements. "

Originally Posted By loobiloo (2 APR 2009 7:59pm)

Originally Posted By loobiloo (1 APR 2009 10:07pm)


As far as core gameplay issues & replayability/extensibility - these are all issues I would associate with other genres where there is lack of content & repetitiveness where variants & add ons have to be considered to prolong their playing life.

I have to apologise here as when posting that comment I didn't have RPGs in mind. I have tried playing a few  & so far my impression  is that: there is a problem/quest, I travel from A - B, have to fight things that suddenly appear, get to where I was headed, talk to lots of people & buy things from the shop. My abilities improve the more I 'exercise'  them & I have the choice of playing other characters with different skills to achieve the goal - usually fighting. I have been informed that there is a lot more to RPGs & I have bought a couple on recommendations to try out - the trouble is I don't have 120 hours!    

So comparing CRPGs to AGs is like comparing a single egg to an entire menu of egg recipes. In some cases those menus are nearly infinite and you can keep enjoying them for many years without paying another dime.

I can see what you are saying in context to RPGs but I don't agree with them being compared to AGs. I can also now see where all the criticism of AGs is coming from! They can't be judged in comparison to each other - they fall into completely different genres & it's not fair to criticise a game in one that fails in an element that is part of another if that makes sense!  

Originally Posted By colpet (2 APR 2009 9:27pm)
I can envision myself savoring the odd 1st person puzzlers that some indy developer puts out (a-hem....Ivinia  

),

Originally Posted By TheTraveler (2 APR 2009 12:36pm)

Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (1 APR 2009 10:34pm)

Look at RPGs.  1-2 blockbusters a year and 1-2 indies a year.  

Just to elaborate on what Arkadia said about this...

I quote from an article on RPG Fan:

Currently, the Xbox 360 has a total of 18 RPGs released. Now, let's take a look at the upcoming releases from now until the end of the year:

Operation Darkness: June
Spectral Force 3: July
Tales of Vesperia: August
Infinite Undiscovery: September
Fallout 3: October
Fable 2: October
Two Worlds: The Temptation : November
Rise of the Argonauts: Fall 2008

That is 8 RPGs to be released in the next 7 months, an average of about 1 per month. This is not a bad ratio at all. Now, those 8 RPGs will bring the total number of RPGs on 360 to 26. 26 for Xbox 360 versus 9 for PlayStation 3. Now, obviously it's not fair to compare it like that since the Xbox 360 was released a year earlier. Instead, let's count the number of RPGs that were released on the 360 within the first 2 years of its release. That gives a total of 13 RPGs, still more than the PS3's "tentative" 9. We also can't forget that to "catch up" to the Xbox 360's total number of RPGs after 3 years (26), the PS3 will need to have 17 RPGs released in 2009. It's possible that this could happen but it is highly unlikely.

Ok, now, that is on one single platform alone.  Since it's release, the 360 has received 26 RPG's - that is roughly over 3 years, giving us roughly 9 RPG's a year. Quite a bit more than 1-2, I would say.

Now, let's look at PC.  The strategy/RPG scene is a little different to the AG scene, because essentially for most expansions, you pay the price of a full game, and it basically is like a game on it's own.

Neverwinter Nights 2 has had 2-3 full expansions equivalent to a full AG (well, just as you would view Syberia 1 & 2; and Still Life 1 & 2; and Vampyre Story 1,2 & 3 as seperate games) in the last year or so.
Warhammer: Dawn of War, has had 2-3 expansions, Gothic Forsaken Gods is a stand-alone expansion, Galactic Civilizations has had another full expansion out, etc, etc, etc, to name only a few of the expansions released.

Roughly what was released as new mainstream RPG's in the past 12-15 months: Fallout 3, Sacred 2, The Last Remnant, Rise of the Argonauts (I don't really agree that this is an RPG - but anyway, it's officialy classed as one), Drakensang, King's Bounty, Mass Effect, Space Siege, Hard to be a God, Dragon Age would have been out already, if it had not been delayed "for marketing reasons" to co-incide with the Xbox release; and I could name about 5 or 6 mainstream RPG's being anticipated for PC in the next few months. This list does not even include indie efforts or MMO's; which would swell it a lot bigger even, [plus I just grabbed some names off the top of my head here, as I don't have an encyclopedic memory of what was released when.]

Now I have not even touched on strategy games either, save for 1 or 2 expansions above. But I'll stop, because hopefully you get the idea.

Originally Posted By ILoveYou (2 APR 2009 7:52am)
There's tens and tens of FPS games out and more being released all the time. I honestly don't like the genre though so I'm not interested either. It's hard to lower your expectations, mainly because every now and then we do get a decent, professional adventure, one of those we're used to *points to House of Tales, Microids and Revolution Games*.

You automatically compare those to the tens of low-budget ag's and end up disappointed, even bitter.  My principle is to forgive the game's midcore graphics but never on voice acting or story, and if the game environment is depressing and "stuffy" you can count me out.  

The new trend of giving an low-budget AG the professional game release and treatment however irks me a lot. Some of the games have been released professionally (boxed, promoted, looking great) but the game itself has been something we wouldn't  had even bother rating back in the 90's. I don't care how bad the state of ags is, just because you release a game that is slightly better than an amateur game doesn't mean it should be treated like a professional game.

To me, something like Moment Of Silence or Still Life will always be up there, the royalty of Adventure Games; instant classics if you will and for example, Penumbra will never be in the same level. Even Overclocked.. The story might've been disappointing but at least the game was well-made and overshadowed 80% of any adventure game releases in the past two years (at the time).. Yes, I'm a game-nazi.

Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (2 APR 2009 10:34pm)
Those are jrpgs, not PC rpgs...

I was referring to PC rpgs, as this(to me) is a pc discussion.

Name more than 2 good rpgs that have come out each year for the last few years...Oblivion, Fallout, Mass Effect, and what else? The genre is dead.

No responses of course on the 4x genre, which besides for 2 recent games, has been extinct for almost a decade.

And fps?  I was referring to multiplayer, as I wouldn't touch single player FPSs.. and again, on PC...

COD 1-17 are pretty much clones in multiplayer... name more than 1-2 good multiplayer FPS released each year for the last few years...

TF2, BF2, COD 1-35, quake wars, and maybe a rainbow six that has been dumbed down for consoles over the last 5 years...

Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (2 APR 2009 11:09pm)
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Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (2 APR 2009 10:34pm)
Those are jrpgs, not PC rpgs...

I was referring to PC rpgs, as this(to me) is a pc discussion.

Name more than 2 good rpgs that have come out each year for the last few years...Oblivion, Fallout, Mass Effect, and what else? The genre is dead.

No responses of course on the 4x genre, which besides for 2 recent games, has been extinct for almost a decade.

And fps?  I was referring to multiplayer, as I wouldn't touch single player FPSs.. and again, on PC...

COD 1-17 are pretty much clones in multiplayer... name more than 1-2 good multiplayer FPS released each year for the last few years...

TF2, BF2, COD 1-35, quake wars, and maybe a rainbow six that has been dumbed down for consoles over the last 5 years...

That depends on whether or not you include action-RPGs and semi-action-RPGs like Diablo 2, Divine Divinity, Beyond Divinity, Dungeon Seige 1 and 2, and Sacred along with full-featured titles like Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Arx Fatalis, Greyhawk: The Temple of Elemental Evil, Lionheart, Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption and Bloodlines, Pool of Radiance 2, KOTOR 1 and 2, Morrowind, Jade Empire, Oblivion, Mass Effect and Fallout 3 - all of which have come out since 2000 as well as many EPs.  

Hey, not every one of the above was great, but I enjoyed them all and there have also been numerous popular MMORPGs released since 2000 as well as a few hybrids like Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War plus that oddball The Bard's Tale. Then there are all the big selling console RPGs.

So no, the genre is far from "dead".

Cheers, Terry

P.S.  

Like most people, I can't handle more than two good CRPGs per year - especially now that some of them are modable with optional MP modes. Heck, I'm still finding new random ecounters in Fallout 1 and 2 more than a decade after they were released and I've replayed both at least a dozen times.

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Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (3 APR 2009 12:07am)

Some of those were complete failures:  Pool 2, lionheart, toee, and beyond divinity.  All painful and critically annihilated.  Action "rpgs" are just clickfests... a different genre imo by far.

What is left is bioware and morrowind and their sameness.  Plus Divine divinity which was great, Vampire(which was released unplayable and wasn't playable until fanmade patches), and Arcanum(completely unbalanced against magic).

All that in 8.5 years.... How many Bioware(same gameplay) or morrowind(same gameplay) clones can you play before it feels EXACTLY the same!?

My opinion stands.

Do you want me to list the amazing adventures in the last 8.5 years?  It is WAYYYY more...  

Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (3 APR 2009 1:04am)
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Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (3 APR 2009 12:07am)

Some of those were complete failures:  Pool 2, lionheart, toee, and beyond divinity.  All painful and critically annihilated.  Action "rpgs" are just clickfests... a different genre imo by far.

What is left is bioware and morrowind and their sameness.  Plus Divine divinity which was great, Vampire(which was released unplayable and wasn't playable until fanmade patches), and Arcanum(completely unbalanced against magic).

All that in 8.5 years.... How many Bioware(same gameplay) or morrowind(same gameplay) clones can you play before it feels EXACTLY the same!?

My opinion stands.

Do you want me to list the amazing adventures in the last 8.5 years?  It is WAYYYY more...  

Not trying to change your opinion - especially when it seems to be based mostly on your personal tastes, Shadow.

I happen to enjoy action-RPGs as well as official D&

titles and most everything in between. I loved Arcanum (although I agree that it completely favors magick users) and have replayed it twice. I also spent many happy hours playing all the top-rated, free NWN mods and evidently liked Beyond Divinity a great deal more than you did.

Otherwise, I had a blast playing the Dungeon Seige games and thought Lionheart was actually pretty cool. Same goes for most of the RPGs I listed above and in terms of total sales for all styles on RPGs on all systems, well there's really no comparison to traditional PC AGs.  

Look, just because you personally don't like action-RPGs, FPS hybrids or consoles RPGs doesn't make them bad. I have no idea if you play any MMORPGs or not, but the same goes for them too. Fact is, as a total genre, RPGs are very much alive and kicking in the mass market.

Cheers, Terry

I think something like this exists in adventure genre - people who might enjoy adventure game as a medium of story may not always like solving puzzles, these are two different things and there is little reason to imply that they have to be combined, except for tradition. The number of such people could not be known - many (of course not all) of them does not play adventure games probably.

in 2007 Adventure Games comprised 4.3% of Video Game Super Genres by units sold in the US[5] (up from 3.4% in 2006[6]) and 5% of best-selling Computer Game Super Genres[5] (down from 5.7% in 2006[6]), although it is not clear how the Super Genre was defined.

Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (2 APR 2009 10:52pm)
Tons and tons of FPS... I asked for solid great games, and I was referring to multiplayer.

See, I thought The Moment of Silence was one of the worst AGs I'd ever played.  Static and lifeless environments, forced to wait for an elevator to go up and down a building over and over again.  

readfuldialogue and not many puzzles.  I had to give up.

I think people that like certain game types think the genre is dead.  Those that want big budget feel.  These same seem to be willing to overlook problems within the genre that continue to go on, imo.  Making me sit in an elevator over and over is unacceptable nowadays.  

Why is low budget bad?  Barrow Hill, Dark Fall, Lost Crown, Diamonds in the Rough, RHEM(most seem to love em if they like those kinds of games, though i haven't played it yet), are all good.

What does budget have to do with anything?  You seem to want style over substance... no wonder you think there are tons and tons of great fpss out there.   I've played Avernum 1-4, Geneforge 1-4, and playing Avernum 5 now... doesn't get lower budget than them.