| 15 MAR 2009 at 11:08pm |
| Deleted User | As Gonchi wrote --- some people are trying to paper over a whole list of difficulties/restrictions/limitations/problems instead of simply facing the fact that VERY MANY players (including myself) just refuse to buy a single DL which has restrictive DRMs which turn my good cash from what I want i.e. a purchase, into a rental and a terrible rental at that !!. (e.g. I think of renting a film for a period of time, a couple of days or more, and am traveling around to visit relatives. I can't play it on their setups, or my daughter's, or she hasn't got a good or any Net connection etc., etc. --- No such lousy rental for me ... I pass !!!).
The whole concept is out of the question for me and many other players.
Why do we have to wait until a very large number of Adventure Game distributors run the genre, and quite likely themselves, into the ground due to stubbornness & apparent blindness to facts --- aided and abetted by a minority (I believe) of players --- some apparently on this Forum.
The Quest/Adventure genre is not the most robust one at present --- why add another nail into a premature coffin and completely UNNECESSARILY so IMO (Not particularly humble !)
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 11:59pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 9:07pm)
Originally Posted By Steve_V (15 MAR 2009 8:00pm)
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 7:25pm)
There is nothing stopping you from uninstalling and reinstalling the game as many times as you like.
If thats the case, then what are people complaining about? If the only problem is that you have to have the original disk in the drive any time you want to play, whats the big deal?
Are you sure thats right Lucien?
http://www.gamersgate.com/?page=page&what=faq&faqcat=7
This is the response I got on their personal forum:
http://www.cateia.com/games/forum_smf/index.php?topic=135.0
Their response is disturbing to say the least for the future of the genre.
I actually did email gamersgate because their policies were a bit vague. No response yet.
My OP was made using the response given from the developer's forum, not gamersgate itself. I also looked at adventuregameshop's policies, and it is drm based.
The problem with the casual outlet form of DRM is that they may not be around in 5-10 years so your download will be unable to be activated then... This is the problem. I buy games to support them but may not get around to playing them for years, and I'd like to save the good adventure games for my son to play when he gets old enough.
All this does is encourage the use of a pirated version so people could have a backup.
Here I am wanting to buy a game to support a small INDEPENDENT croatian company, and I am unable to(I won't pay to rent or have strings attached)... yet I WAS able to support Diamonds in the Rough, a one man job, because it was non DRM based.
About 3-4 years ago I rediscovered the adventure genre and found it to be alive and flourishing through indie developers. Dark Fall, Barrow Hill, and tons of others. All of a sudden there is this new thing about releasing the game solely to casual outlets or other DRM downloads and I just don't get it...
If you want to ruin the genre, this is the way to do it. With low sales, even cutting out 15-20% will ruin any incentives for publishers/indies in the future and drive it even more underground... and the sad thing will be that they will think there isn't anyone interested, when that isn't the case at all.
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 1:48am |
| Deleted User | Again I agree with you completely, shadow !
I would like to add that NONE of the 5 Carol Reed Mystery CDs caries either a DRM or any sort of copy protection, nor do you need to have the CD in the drive either to start or continue playing.
I hope I am not misquoting Mikael Nyqvist the Swedish MDNA Developer.
But AFAIK from him, although there is file-sharing piracy on all of his games just as with all others I think it is no more (and maybe even less) than the vast majority of games which employ the most drastic copy protections, CD in drive, etc. to say nothing of the diabolic DRMs all of which do absolutely nothing to eliminate file-sharing piracy, or even reduce it somewhat --- and IMO even increase it since many 'honest' people feel "What the hell --- if they put those disgusting hurdles on the game I'm "justified" in file-copying it since that's the only way I'll get to play the game" !
or ssimilar 'justifications ------ human nature !!!'.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 2:57am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (15 MAR 2009 11:59pm)
About 3-4 years ago I rediscovered the adventure genre and found it to be alive and flourishing through indie developers. Dark Fall, Barrow Hill, and tons of others. All of a sudden there is this new thing about releasing the game solely to casual outlets or other DRM downloads and I just don't get it...
What part are you not getting about the releasing on casual outlets or going with publishers who use DRM?
If you want to ruin the genre, this is the way to do it. With low sales, even cutting out 15-20% will ruin any incentives for publishers/indies in the future and drive it even more underground...
Think about it. Why? Why would so many indies be jumping on the casual games outlets (...and spending significantly less time on these forums)?
and the sad thing will be that they will think there isn't anyone interested, when that isn't the case at all.
Let's cut to the chase here. Just how many AG fans do you think are there out there that buy games straight from the developer? Keep in mind that Jonathan Boakes probably has the record with Darkfall before it got picked up by TAC. Look through his interviews and you might just find the max number. From there, work down...
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 7:27am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (15 MAR 2009 11:08pm)
As Gonchi wrote --- some people are trying to paper over a whole list of difficulties/restrictions/limitations/problems instead of simply facing the fact that VERY MANY players (including myself) just refuse to buy a single DL which has restrictive DRMs which turn my good cash from what I want i.e. a purchase, into a rental and a terrible rental at that !!. (e.g. I think of renting a film for a period of time, a couple of days or more, and am traveling around to visit relatives. I can't play it on their setups, or my daughter's, or she hasn't got a good or any Net connection etc., etc. --- No such lousy rental for me ... I pass !!!).
The whole concept is out of the question for me and many other players.
And some how you can't see how the attitude in paragraph 1 above is leading to the reality of paragraph 2 below. LOL
Why do we have to wait until a very large number of Adventure Game distributors run the genre, and quite likely themselves, into the ground due to stubbornness & apparent blindness to facts --- aided and abetted by a minority (I believe) of players --- some apparently on this Forum.
The Quest/Adventure genre is not the most robust one at present --- why add another nail into a premature coffin and completely UNNECESSARILY so IMO (Not particularly humble !)
Stubbornness & apparently blinded by the flaws/limitations of DRM that you are driving that nail into the coffin yourselves.
The majority of people never have problems with DRM (They purchase it install it and play it without any problems - I've downloaded and played all the Telltale Games and various other DRM based games - I've played them multiple times, burned then to DVD etc etc all without any hassle) it's the vocal minority who focus on the flaws of the DRM idea and demonise it.
Sure i'd love to get the games without DRM and would happily sign a petition etc to stop DRM in the future, but it's not the bogeyman people make it out to be. It's an attempt by developers to protect their creative endevours from theft so that they can survive and make more games in the future.
If the game is good enough buy it, but keep up the protest in an organised manner.
Don't cut off you nose to spite your face.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 8:02am |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | I agree with a lot of what you say Lucien and it is a matter of personal choice in what each of us decides. However, the publishers cannot in any context support the contention you make in this quote.
" Stubbornness & apparently blinded by the flaws/limitations of DRM that you are driving that nail into the coffin yourselves."
To me that comment suggest by consumers not buying into bad and sometimes security risk DRM schemes it is the consumer who is bringing out the demise of games. This is flatly untrue. It is the industry that is causing their own demise. It is the industry that is pushing the DRM upon the customers.
They do not inform you by labeling the packaging or in download instructions what specific drm scheme they are using. More often than not they do not say if DRMs are even present. To add insult to injury you must open the package or pay and download. Only then you may discover which form of spyware or rootkit is included. At that point you cannot return it. I say may discover because often you must install it to identify the added malware. This does not even discuss the EULA which is also buried inside the package. Where else do they offer a contract only after you sign it?
You cannot claim that customers who refuse to allow companies to secretly install files on your computer are the cause of declining sales. It is this take it or leave it attitude causing declining sales. The fault is squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrators of this bad business practice.
I agree that creators of intellectual properties have a right to protect what they have created. The onus is on them to protect their creation. It is not on the customer. Placing reckless protection schemes inside games to be installed on personal property without informing the customer is a dangerous way to conduct business. If at the checkout counter the cashier slapped you or called you names would you go back? This business plan amounts to the same thing.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 8:19am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I do agree that the publishers are also at fault for putting the DRM there in the first place, in response to certain consumers obtaining games for free and screwing it up for the rest of us.
However, It's the developer who is caught in the middle and the developer who will go under without sales.
Barring a viable alternative that consumers can show with spending power they prefer the non-drm version, out and out boycotts are just going to force developers out of business.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 8:26am |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | I understand your point but we cannot let publishers bully us into accepting their terms. We don't have to, they need us. We can live without games they can't remain in business without us. Yes the developers may suffer but they too have a voice. Public pressure forced UBIsoft to drop Starforce. Amazon dropped drm from music downloads, Apple is considering the same if they have not already done it. So publishers will get the message if the public refuses to buy into their heavy handed tactics.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 11:04am |
| Deleted User | VERY good for you antler !
N.B. I was going to mention the absolute scandal over StarForce (but couldn't remember the name) and how public pressure forced the removal of an iniquitous practice.
Sorry Lucien, I disagree with almost everything you've said. I do NOT think that Developers would suffer at all if ALL DRM were removed from downloads.
As a matter of fact I think that they would considerably benefit from it and so would even the publishers themselves who inflict it upon players --- often players who don't even realize in advance how they've been taken for quite a ride!
Who suffered when the shocking so called copy-protection Starforce scheme was stopped. Developers? Publishers?
NO!! they all benefited !!
~~ Lucien ~~ ... The majority of people never have problems with DRM (They purchase it install it and play it without any problems. - I've downloaded and played all the Telltale Games and various other DRM based games - I've played them multiple times, burned then to DVD etc etc all without any hassle) it's the vocal minority who focus on the flaws of the DRM idea and demonise it.
Do you have solid statistics to back these statements up or are they just your own personal subjective feelings ??
I'm far from certain that this is true ESPECIALLY for the bulk of 'experienced' quest-adventure player enthusiasts !
I'm surprised at you Lucien, and am afraid that it's you not me who is "cut(ting) off your nose to spite your face".
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 11:58am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (16 MAR 2009 11:04am)
Sorry Lucien, I disagree with almost everything you've said. I do NOT think that Developers would suffer at all if ALL DRM were removed from downloads.
As a matter of fact I think that they would considerably benefit from it and so would even the publishers themselves who inflict it upon players --- often players who don't even realize in advance how they've been taken for quite a ride!
Well you might disagree, but you certainly didn't understand. I never once said that developers would suffer by removing DRM. I said Developers would suffer by consumers NOT downloading the game just because it has DRM.
~~ Lucien ~~ ... The majority of people never have problems with DRM (They purchase it install it and play it without any problems. - I've downloaded and played all the Telltale Games and various other DRM based games - I've played them multiple times, burned then to DVD etc etc all without any hassle) it's the vocal minority who focus on the flaws of the DRM idea and demonise it.
Do you have solid statistics to back these statements up or are they just your own personal subjective feelings ??
I'm far from certain that this is true ESPECIALLY for the bulk of 'experienced' quest-adventure player enthusiasts !
Well you don't speak for this 'experienced' quest-adventure player. Of course there isn't really stats on this apart from the obvious fact that there are millions of people who have played Securom games or other DRM games without problem and there are not millions of people screaming about the DRM. It might be a high vocal minority, but it is a minority. How many games have Telltale sold compared to how many DRM complaints they get...
I'm surprised at you Lucien, and am afraid that it's you not me who is "cut(ting) off your nose to spite your face".
And how exactly am I cutting my nose off by telling people to support the developer and organise protests against DRM as a seperate and organised event. :
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 12:26pm |
| Deleted User | Ther is a similar thread on the normally 'conservative' GameBoomers on the same subject (so it's not confined only to JA+ "vocal minorities".
The posts at the end re GoG are particularly interesting --- of course I can't vouch for their veracity !!
http://www.gameboomers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=474676&fpart=3
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 12:39pm |
| Deleted User | I have no stats either Lucien to refute your contentions.
Incidentally I was not talking about the apparently vast number of people who download casual games of very many types including the extremely popular hidden-object games.
These seem to be 'play it fairly quickly, get it over with without very much effort, and on to the next' which is different from fully fledged quest-adventure games to which I was referring exclusively and which seem to be migrating to the Download+DRM outlets !!
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 1:16pm |
| Deleted User | Any further concrete info &/or opinions pro/con on "GoG" would be appreciated.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 1:21pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
They are certainly DRM free.
3. You buy it, you keep it.
Don't let your DRMs turn into nightmares (clever, no?). You won't find any intrusive copy protection in our games; we hate draconian DRM schemes just as much as you do, so at GOG.com you don't just buy the game, you actually own it. Once you download a game, you can install it on any PC and re-download it whenever you want, as many times as you need, and you can play it without an internet connection.
There list of adventures is very small though.
http://www.gog.com/en/search/sort/genre/adventure
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 1:40pm |
An_InklingSpace Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Here are some comments from a Stardock (a company that develops and publishes games without copy protection, and recently have had great success with Sins of a Solar Empire) employee that some may find interesting:
The reason why we don't put CD copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count. We know our customers could pirate our games if they want but choose to support our efforts. So we return the favor - we make the games they want and deliver them how they want it. This is also known as operating like every other industry outside the PC game industry.
Blaming piracy is easy. But it hides other underlying causes. When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue.
In the end, the pirates hurt themselves. PC game developers will either slowly migrate to making games that cater to the people who buy PC games or they'll move to platforms where people are more inclined to buy games.
In the meantime, if you want to make profitable PC games, I'd recommend focusing more effort on satisfying the people willing to spend money on your product and less effort on making what others perceive as hot. But then again, I don't romanticize PC game development. I just want to play cool games and make a profit on games that I work on.
So, what's more important? Making genuine customers happy, or making a game slightly less piratable?
Does the success of Sins of a Solar Empire, a game without copy protection, eliminate piracy as the main cause of poor sales?
Well, no. But, in my view, particularly for small developers, producing quality games and actually engaging with the community is far more important than tackling piracy. Customers can be very loyal to companies they feel treat them well. No matter what you do, your game will be pirated. Focusing on treating genuine customers with respect could have better results than treating all players as potential pirates. This works particularly well when most of the "big boys" go the DRM, or at least copy protection of some kind, route.
Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i])
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 5:50pm |
| Deleted User | [size=14]HALLELUIAH !
So some enlightened publishers (and Developers) have seen the light.
Maybe us "high vocal minority" on different threads on different Forums is slowly causing the pig-headed cartel of download-severe-DRM disseminators of adventure games to think again ....... and hopefully get rid of their stubborn prejudices ?!?
Nil desperandum --- Let's remain at the barricades folk !
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| 16 MAR 2009 at 10:45pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | I received a response from gamersgate-
"There is no protection, and you can burn the installation files to a disc.
However, you still need to have an internet connection to be able to play.
It is the downloadable version of the game. Other than the fact that you
need an internet connection to play its just like the retail version."
So essentially, if they go under, or you do not have an internet connection on the computer you want to play on, you are SOL.
Unacceptable.
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 24 MAR 2009 at 10:41am |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | I've just seen this in a customer review of a game on Amazon, and sadly, it kind of makes sense..
'It seems to be a trend for the latest games to be released half-finished.
At first I attributed to the usual gaming industry sloppiness (does anyone remember DUNGEON LORDS?). However, after STALKER: CLEAR SKY it occurred to me that this may be actually a form of unorthodox anti-piracy scheme. Since the crucial period for both sales and piracy are the first weeks of a game's release, by selling an incomplete product the publisher "cancels out" any cracking attempts by requiring constant and repeated patching.
Of course, the obvious fact that remains unsaid is that, once more, legitimate customers get to pay the bill of the industry's greed and incompetency to fight piracy: whoever buys such an intentionally incomplete game cannot play it properly for months!
Not to mention that, usually, save-games are not compatible with later patches... '
The one obvious counter argument to that is that people generally just give up on a game that is unplayable out of the box and make a note to be wary of purchasing anything else from that company..
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