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| 15 MAR 2009 at 5:06pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Do we really need another "RM has ruined gaming" thread it seriously getting old.
I'm not pro DRM as I think it's the equivalent of that little Dutch boy with his finger in the dam. It only slows the ineviable burst.
However the constant whinging about it is pointless.
Beat Piracy by offering something the public want at a reasonable price or provide it on a medium that can't be copied. (The PS3 is the least pirated system atm due to the blu-ray and the massive size of the files)
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 5:30pm |
KoriSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 399
Joined: 27 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | (The PS3 is the least pirated system atm due to the blu-ray and the massive size of the files)
This is new to me. Explain.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 5:46pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
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Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Kori (15 MAR 2009 5:30pm)
(The PS3 is the least pirated system atm due to the blu-ray and the massive size of the files)
This is new to me. Explain.
Standard game on PC and Xbox 360 = 6gb
Standard game on PS3 = 50gb
Noboby wants to download 50gb of info plus the cost of Blu-ray dual layer writers are still quite high compared to DVD.
That and other technical reasons make the PS3 less piracy inflicted (Not piracy free, but certainly way less than the 360/PC/Wii or the handheld systems)
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 5:47pm |
| Deleted User | I agree 100% shadow9d9 !!
~~ Lucien ~~... However the constant whinging about it is pointless.
I don't agree !.
If enough people on enough game forums whinge about the Draconian DRMs, then maybe the Developers/Publishers/Portals will finally wake up to the fact that they are not only hurting themselves severely but also the Adventure game genre in general.
And if they don't switch to downloads with NO idiotic & useless DRM limitations, and allow this insidious system to grow even larger (as it has been doing lately) they may find the Adventure genre really in danger of collapsing and their businesses together with it !!!
Once again I repeat & stress ---
I'm not against download itself --- exactly the opposite actually.
But I strongly oppose the concomitant deadly DRM's which the above seem to feel, totally incorrectly IMHO, that they have toaccompany the downloads !
Maybe a petition would help ???
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 5:53pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (15 MAR 2009 5:30pm)
Some stuff.....
Well maybe we can keep it all in the one DRM thread in the hot zone instead of turning every thread into a DRM discussion.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 6:05pm |
| Deleted User | Sorry --- but I only access the Adventure Forum and the Off-Topic Forum. So didn't know anything about other departments.
I thinK the more the subject is belaboured the more chances of influencing a change for the better.
------ !instead of turning every thread into a DRM discussion.
This thread has not been 'turned', but started as a legitimate attack on the present very harmful practice of severe "ownload-DRMs".
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 6:19pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
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Status : Offline | Semantics.
It's still pointless and there is already a thread for this purpose.
It's simple..don't like the drm ---> DON'T BUY IT.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 6:24pm |
GonchiSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 337
Joined: 24 SEP 2007
Status : Online | Pointless is hardly the word I'd use. If anything, at least, it informs people who do not like DRM of games that utilize it.
I'd support making a sort of "mega thread" for the subject, but it doesn't bother me in the least to continue with separate threads.
But I'm not so complicated as to flee, &&or stand here in silence. &&But I'm not so simple as to not caution, &&that there aren't three minutes, or a hundred words, that could define me.&&&&[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlR-6Tw-5bE]Brief description of my person[/url] - Cuarteto de Nos
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 6:28pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 5:05pm)
Do we really need another "RM has ruined gaming" thread it seriously getting old.
I'm not pro DRM as I think it's the equivalent of that little Dutch boy with his finger in the dam. It only slows the ineviable burst.
However the constant whinging about it is pointless.
I disagree that 'whinging' about it is pointless. What do you want - for every potential buyer of that game that wants it either with no DRM on the download or as a boxed copy to 'lay down & die'? I think in the current situation where more & more new games are being offered as downloads only, the more threads like this the better to try & get across that there are a lot of gamers that just won't buy them!
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 6:35pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
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Location: 0
Status : Offline | Ehh no you don't you just need one thread that people go to so see which games have DRM (I.e All of them in one form or another).
I've never had any problems with DRM. I mean so what it has an activation limit that means you can't install it on more than 2 or 3 computers simultaneously, but why the hell would you need to do that.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 6:37pm |
CulturaJourneyman
Posts : 1337
Joined: 1 SEP 2004
Location: NL, Amersfoort
Status : Offline | yawn.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 6:52pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 6:35pm)
Ehh no you don't you just need one thread that people go to so see which games have DRM (I.e All of them in one form or another).
I've never had any problems with DRM. I mean so what it has an activation limit that means you can't install it on more than 2 or 3 computers simultaneously, but why the hell would you need to do that.
I think downloading suits a lot of players & I don't think the real issue for many others is how many computers they can download a game onto simultaneously - that seems to have cropped up as an example of the restrictions imposed. The real issue is that many players want to buy a game that's theirs to play in the future like buying a book & keeping it on a shelf - that's a personal preference - some players like to play a game once & that's it!
As for just having one thread - I think new threads relevant to new releases as this one is are more useful & as the subject is clearly defined in the heading no-one who is totally bored with the subject had to read it let alone post on the subject!
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 7:25pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
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Status : Offline | There is nothing stopping you from uninstalling and reinstalling the game as many times as you like.
I just thought, and I know it's a radical idea, but we could actually talk about the game itself in the adventure game forum and not the DRM. By all means point to the seperate thread where the DRM is highlighted, but leave it to the seperate thread to whing about it.
The DRM isn't the only thing harming the genre, thread like this will do nothing but harm the sales. If people don't buy the game just because of the DRM issue then the developers and the genre as a whole will bear the brunt of the hit as publishers see no profit in it. Developers will go bust and no new games will be made.
The best way to combat DRM is an organised protest or where there is options of lesser/non-drm version then vote with your wallet. Either option shouldn't stop you from purchasing the game (If it's actually any good).
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 7:51pm |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | The problem with remaining silent and voting with your wallet is publishers will only notice sales are down. You should complain often and loud about DRMs. It is obvious the publishers don't give a hoot about the end user. Why do I propose it is obvious? Because they keep pushing root kits et al at us without at hint of concern. So this is yet another game I won't rent. Sooner or later with diminished sales and constant complaining about DRMs they may get the message. If they don't that is their problem.
EDIT Lucien quote " I've never had any problems with DRM. I mean so what it has an activation limit that means you can't install it on more than 2 or 3 computers simultaneously, but why the hell would you need to do that."
It is not installing it on two or more computers that is the issue though perhaps somebody may want a game on both their laptop and desktop computers. The point is with many download games you have to be connected to install the thing. So next year when the server is gone you are not installing the game you legally bought. That effectively reduces your purchase to a rental. If you want to put up with draconian terms like that so be it, but many of us won't put up with it.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 8:00pm |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 7:25pm)
There is nothing stopping you from uninstalling and reinstalling the game as many times as you like.
If thats the case, then what are people complaining about? If the only problem is that you have to have the original disk in the drive any time you want to play, whats the big deal?
Are you sure thats right Lucien?
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 8:14pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | You may be able to install a game as many times as you want, but the question is will the game work without needing to be "activated" online every single time? Will you have to get a new activation key for each activation? and will the company that sold you the download still be there to activate it in the future?
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 8:16pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
I have no idea what the actual EULA terms are for this specific game. But I do have an opinion about the merits of starting a single, continuous thread for discussion of all games with restrictive DRM.
First and foremost, casual forum users will find it much easier to find related DRM info on all such games. To make it even easier for them to reference, we should include and update an alphabetical list in the initial post of all the individual games added to the thread over time.
And second, it would encourage us to discuss the positive aspects of these same titles in separate threads without them degrading into heated arguments about DRM.
Cheers, Terry
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 8:18pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Lucien! gamers who like to keep their game do not want to hear the 'old' propoganda of you can install & uninstall your games as many times as you like - they want a hard copy either by a non DRM protected download that they can make themselves or more popularly from a legitmate disc release!
I don't agree that threads like this harm the release of a download unless it's putting off gamers that would otherwise go ahead blindly without understanding the full implications, & they are entitled to be enlightened before making their choice otherwise they are buying under false pretences!
Downloads with DRM are being offered at the same price as a disc version, it's quick & convenient for many & they seem to be selling so there is no problem there!
What needs to happen is for collectors of games to be catered for also either by the release of a disc version, which I think would be the more popular, or a DRM free download perhaps sometime after the initial release of the game?
I think gamers will vote with their wallet & DRM games will do okay because many gamers are quite happy to download & play once but there are many others that aren't & won't but will support the genre if they are offered different alternatives to buying games. Reportedly good games are always going to get better sales regardless of whether they're disc versions or downloads but gamers are still going to go for their preferred option.
Terry, the thread title focused on the DRM aspect of the game so naturally that is going to provoke responses on the same subject. I'm sure that you don't need lots of 'organised' ways to distinguish between whether you are going to focus on a game's qualities or the fact that it's a download with DRM! All it needs is someone to start the thread initiating aspects of the actual game - its obvious & hardly rocket science! [smiley=laughing.gif]
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 9:07pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Steve_V (15 MAR 2009 8:00pm)
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 7:25pm)
There is nothing stopping you from uninstalling and reinstalling the game as many times as you like.
If thats the case, then what are people complaining about? If the only problem is that you have to have the original disk in the drive any time you want to play, whats the big deal?
Are you sure thats right Lucien?
http://www.gamersgate.com/?page=page&what=faq&faqcat=7
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 9:11pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (15 MAR 2009 8:14pm)
You may be able to install a game as many times as you want, but the question is will the game work without needing to be "activated" online every single time? Will you have to get a new activation key for each activation? and will the company that sold you the download still be there to activate it in the future?
When you bought King's Quest or any other game in the 90's did you expect that DOS would be around forever and that the Sierra would be around to support you running the software today?
Why is this any different?
People got around the DOS problem with installers and DOSbox programs etc that are not sanctioned by the original developers. What's to say that patches etc won't be available for these DRM games (if they are not already)
Very few products get a lifetime guarantee that they will always work in the future.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 9:11pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (15 MAR 2009 8:16pm)
.
I have no idea what the actual EULA terms are for this specific game. But I do have an opinion about the merits of starting a single, continuous thread for discussion of all games with restrictive DRM.
First and foremost, casual forum users will find it much easier to find related DRM info on all such games. To make it even easier for them to reference, we should include and update an alphabetical list in the initial post of all the individual games added to the thread over time.
And second, it would encourage us to discuss the positive aspects of these same titles in separate threads without them degrading into heated arguments about DRM.
Cheers, Terry
Exactly.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 9:21pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (15 MAR 2009 8:16pm)
And second, it would encourage us to discuss the positive aspects of these same titles in separate threads without them degrading into heated arguments about DRM.
I agree. I'm curious about what constitutes overly restrictive DRM. I think those that only allow X amount of installs on a single purchase are BS.
I can't tell you how many times I've had to reinstall everything over here. In some instances I had to reinstall everything 2-3 times in a single day because something got hosed up. If I were installing a game with each on those rebuilds that had a restrictive DRM...well, you get the picture.
I'm also not a fan of 1 installation on a single machine. It's a mobile world. What if I played at home on my PC, then wanted to play it on the road on my laptop? Dev tools are usually that anal about things.
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 9:53pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Absolutely right Ivinia.
I've had to reinstall the same game on the same PC numerous times just to get it to work once. I've also had to reinstall the same game numerous times on the same PC due to unrelated problems that required wiping the hard drive and other times simply because I wanted to replay a title within a year or two of its release.
Then there are times when several versions of Windows overlap and people might want to keep a back-up system with older games installed. At one point I had Fallout 1 and 2 installed on a Win98SE box, a WinXP system and my new Vista PC. If I had also had a laptop at that time, I would have wanted to install them on it too.
As it is, I have installed those two games dozens of times on numerous PCs over the course of a decade and never once had a problem with activation keys, online activation codes or disc swapping / degradation. You know why? It's because the developers (who made a ton of money on those games) had zero DRM, no ridiculous EULA install restrictions and gave you the option of a full install so the CDs are not required in order to play them.
I can name dozens of other highly successful PC titles that gave legal users the same generous options over the same ten-year span during which CD writers and fast web connections have been commonplace.
The fact is that excessively restrictive DRM and EULA's would have hurt the sales of all those games badly and in reality, not having those annoying obstacles for legal users actually helped sustained healthy sales and popularity for many years. In many cases, multiple EPs were also sold as were whole new generations of those game series.
Cheers, Terry
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| 15 MAR 2009 at 10:08pm |
GonchiSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 337
Joined: 24 SEP 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 9:07pm)
Originally Posted By Steve_V (15 MAR 2009 8:00pm)
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 7:25pm)
There is nothing stopping you from uninstalling and reinstalling the game as many times as you like.
If thats the case, then what are people complaining about? If the only problem is that you have to have the original disk in the drive any time you want to play, whats the big deal?
Are you sure thats right Lucien?
http://www.gamersgate.com/?page=page&what=faq&faqcat=7
"Some games are protected with an activation limit but that limit is easily reset with an email to support@gamersgate.com"
No thanks.
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 9:10pm)
Originally Posted By Jenny100 (15 MAR 2009 8:14pm)
You may be able to install a game as many times as you want, but the question is will the game work without needing to be "activated" online every single time? Will you have to get a new activation key for each activation? and will the company that sold you the download still be there to activate it in the future?
When you bought King's Quest or any other game in the 90's did you expect that DOS would be around forever and that the Sierra would be around to support you running the software today?
Why is this any different?
People got around the DOS problem with installers and DOSbox programs etc that are not sanctioned by the original developers.
It's different in that even if people hadn't come up with installers and DOSbox, DOS itself can still be used to play the games (hey, if you didn't keep it around that's your problem). It's different in that I don't need Sierra to still be here today to play King's Quest, I can play it just as well today without needing to call or e-mail them, or get online to have them verify the copy. My copy runs just fine from the original media, but in the event that it didn't I have two sets of back-ups, which I can not have with DRM games...
You really see no difference between one and the other?
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 9:07pm)
What's to say that patches etc won't be available for these DRM games (if they are not already)
In that case, I suppose one could call hacked pirated versions patches...
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 MAR 2009 9:07pm)
Very few products get a lifetime guarantee that they will always work in the future.
True, but I played Future Wars the other day. The game is 20 years old and it ran without a hitch.
Will I be able to play The Legend of Crystal Valley 20 years from now? I don't see that question in their FAQ.
Originally Posted By Ivinia (15 MAR 2009 9:21pm)
I'm curious about what constitutes overly restrictive DRM.
As far as I'm concerned any form of DRM is overly restrictive. I won't touch anything that limits how, when and where I play my games.
But I'm not so complicated as to flee, &&or stand here in silence. &&But I'm not so simple as to not caution, &&that there aren't three minutes, or a hundred words, that could define me.&&&&[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlR-6Tw-5bE]Brief description of my person[/url] - Cuarteto de Nos
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