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Topic: Dave Gilbert’s latest, Emerald City Confidential,

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All Forums : [Adventure Games Forum] : Adventure Game Discussion > Dave Gilbert’s latest, Emerald City Confidential,

#76 4 MAR 2009 at 9:17pm
Deleted User	That's right, Terry. But now I think we are approaching a grey area. Is it then, not legal to put a copy of a game I purchased, one on my PC and one on my child's PC, and one on my husband's PC, and let each of us play the same game intermittently? You say this is legal, in spite of that the EULA says I cannot "lend out" the game? So me taking the game with, when visiting my cousin, and me putting the game on his PC, is also strictly speaking legal. Where is the line, though? If I had left my original legal copy lying at my cousin's house, that would surely become illegal? The EULA does say that you are not allowed to lend out the game.

#77 4 MAR 2009 at 9:37pm
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. *Originally Posted By TheTraveler (4 MAR 2009 9:17pm)* That's right, Terry. But now I think we are approaching a grey area. Is it then, not legal to put a copy of a game I purchased, one on my PC and one on my child's PC, and one on my husband's PC, and let each of us play the same game intermittently? You say this is legal, in spite of that the EULA says I cannot "lend out" the game? So me taking the game with, when visiting my cousin, and me putting the game on his PC, is also strictly speaking legal. Where is the line, though? If I had left my original legal copy lying at my cousin's house, that would surely become illegal? The EULA does say that you are not allowed to lend out the game. No I never said that Traveler. Installing a game on someone else's computer is in effect making an illegal digital copy. You can not do that. But you most certainly are allowed to bring your system to a LAN party to play games with others. You may also invite people over to play games on your system or install a game on your laptop and go anywhere you want to play it - with or without friends, online or off. Most EULA's also allow you to make a limited number of legal back-up copies on disc. You just can't distribute them - that is unless you sell, trade or give away your single-user license to that game. When you do that, the right to have a backup copy automatically transfers to them along with ownership of that one original copy. In the latter case, according to law, you can not keep any copies for yourself. If you sell / giveaway / trade a game, you lose all rights to keep backups. Cheers, Terry
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#78 4 MAR 2009 at 9:56pm
Deleted User	Yes, of course, the last point you made is obvious, as you are actually purchasing the intellectual property rights that reside in that original copy. Well, I suppose temporarily installing the game on my cousin's PC could very strictly speaking be considered illegal, but as it was mainly I who was playing the game, I don't see much difference between that situation, and him visiting my house and having a look at the game while it is on my PC. It's not quite the same as a case when I would have left the game on his PC and left him with a playable copy, - which would clearly then be a situation of "lend out"; which is why I use this as an example of a 'gray area'. Consider also, if I put a game on my young child's computer (which is my computer that I am letting him use), and I let my child play a game that I had bought (usually specifically for him) then if my other child also plays the game, we are getting another gray area here, with a : "My 4 year old sister is playing my game that I am playing on my mother's computer..." situation. What I am trying to get at, is that there are certain gray areas ,where you would perhaps want to install your game on another PC; - be it that you are on holiday, or a spouse/child want's to try the game, etc. where if publishers are trying to restrict users from doing it, it becomes so odious and restrictive, that you would rather do without that form of entertainment. After all, as has also been pointed out, it is quite legal and acceptable for your family and even your guests, to view a video you own on any of your television sets that you may have in your posession. Yet certain DRM's would not allow a person to put a game on another PC in his posession, which in the end just amounts to a hassle for the user; but it does not stop or restrict piracy in any big way. Seriously, in cases where parent/child, siblings, husband/wife, each have their own PC or laptop, and someone else in the nuclear family than the primary owner also wants to try out the game, do the publishers seriously expect me to buy a seperate copy for each member of the family? I'm sorry, at the price of new games these days, and especially if you have more than one child, this is just not viable. I mean, you are not expecting me to buy 3 copies of the same video, one for each member of the family, are you? Or 3 copies of the same music album? Or even 3 copies of the same console game? So why does this apply to PC games only? Why must PC game lovers always be at the short end of the stick? No wonder PC as a platform is going under. We get the worst deal on all sides; we have to cope with bad ports, we have to wait sometimes up to 2 years (and sometimes forever) for the PC version of a game to appear after it has been released to consoles, and if all of that is not bad enough, we are the ones who now have to try and cope with crappy DRM as well. I am just trying to point out, that there is a point beyond which DRM restrictions simply become petty more than practical or useful towards any goal that would financially impact on the publisher. I am trying to say: please, keep the DRM simple and non-restrictive. If, for instance, I buy my little boy a game, I am forced to avoid those with online activation, as the PC he uses, is not connected to the internet, and it will not be, for a good 8-10 years to come. And there is no ways in a month of Sundays, that he is going to get to use my PC, so in the end, that is a potential sale lost. The multiple system issue is not even my personal biggest gripe against the limited/single activation issue. Consider, in my case, the very first games that I started to play seriously and which drew me in to become more seriously involved with gaming: Morrowind and the Heroes of Might and Magic series. Even after more than 4 years with it, I still play a bit of Morrowind now and then, and I still play some of the earlier versions of HOMM. Heh, not to mention that I still have not completed Riven, after first installing it many, many moons ago.... I know a person, who, after something like 7 or 8 years, at times still obsessively plays Wing Commander: Privateer and Halo 1. Many people like to replay their early gaming loves on a periodic basis, and why should they not be allowed to? How many times does the average PC gamer upgrade his system? I do every 2-3 years, or less. That doesn't leave me a lot of time to play a game limited to 3 activations.

#79 12 MAR 2009 at 2:01pm
Akhilles Private Detective Posts : 581 Joined: 21 JUL 2003 Location: US Status : Offline	In the earliest days of PC software, it was always said "software is like a book, only one person at a time can be reading a book". Thus, if you are done with a game, you uninstall it and install it on a friends computer and then they play it, it's fine. The problem with the large companies at this point in time, they're greedy (or maybe they think they are making up for piracy) and they will tell you flat out that after you play a game, that game is still your copy and if your family wants to play it, they have to buy their own copy. The rare exceptions being a few companies that will give a nod for you to share the game after playing it (or even share it while playing it). It would be nice if the general consensus was that you could install a piece of software as many times as you like within the household (of course there would be the people that would abuse this but that's another story). You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.
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#80 12 MAR 2009 at 3:49pm
Jenny100 Guild Master Posts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By Akhilles (12 MAR 2009 2:01pm)* In the earliest days of PC software, it was always said "software is like a book, only one person at a time can be reading a book". That's not exactly true though. Think of someone reading aloud to their kids -- or a teacher reading aloud to a classroom full of students.
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#81 12 MAR 2009 at 4:23pm
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. Economically viable, practical, desirable, enforceable or not, most EULAs from game publishers are highly restrictive. These "contracts" are even called single-user licenses. While related, EULAs however are a separate issue from DRM software. The latter can not be interpreted and it can not be legally avoided. People that buy legal copies of games literally have to break the law to get around DRM in some cases. To make matters worse, there is no protection for consumers when a DRM program renders a game unplayable or severely interferes with their systems. Retailers also have very strict return policies that IMO border on unfair practices. So yes, we game buyers are indeed getting screwed. My solution is simple. Like some others here, I will not buy any game that has certain types of DRM and/or unreasonable terms in the EULA. I do not care who made the game, what genre it represents or how good the reviews are, they will never get one single penny from me. Cheers, Terry
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#82 12 MAR 2009 at 6:43pm
Deleted User	My solution is simple. Like some others here, *I will not buy any game that has certain types of DRM and/or unreasonable terms in the EULA*. I do not care who made the game, what genre it represents or how good the reviews are, they will never get one single penny from me. Cheers, Terry My solution is even simpler I think --- no disrespect intended !! I have not and will not buy any downloadable game which has ANY EULA RESTRICTIONS over & above those of 'ordinary "boxed" games. Nor do I see the tiniest justifications for introducing any such restrictions. In fact they do not reduce piracy of any sort by any single percentage point; they severely punish honest purchasers; and they leave the pirates laughing up their sleeves since they both get their game for free AND benefit from no-hassles whatsoever that the honest folk suffer. It's more than time that developers &/or publishers finally wake up to the fact that they are just shooting themselves in the foot with these IMMORAL EULA restrictions. In other words :- I see not one single reason in the world why downloadable games should not be identical to “boxed” games. Sure, the developer &/or publisher is entitled to use any cryptographic or other safe method to ensure that after the purchasers’ cash has been received, the game is uploaded in such a way that only the buyer can download it without anybody else being able to copy it in transit After that, the purchaser is entitled to copy the downloaded game.onto a CD (or two) or DVD or whatever. After that the purchaser is COMPLETELY free to do whatever is acceptable to do with the disk(s) as is allowed and practiced everyday with “boxed” discs e.g. let their children play the game, take it to a friend’s computer, use it on both their PC’s & mobile & portable computers, play the game when & where they like (including after any Company’s go belly up or whatever --- e.g. how come I can still play my Tex Murphy, Sierra, LucasArts games despite the fact that the Company’s exist or support no more --- which I can’t do with EULA restricted downloadable games ??), etc., etc.

#83 12 MAR 2009 at 7:04pm
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. When it comes to fair use, I don't make any distinction between a retail boxed game on CD or DVD and the same title in a downloadable digital format either Len. Like you, I will never accept stricter terms and conditions or less value just because a game is downloaded. In all cases, I refuse to accept severe user restrictions or overly intrusive DRM. Cheers, Terry
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#84 12 MAR 2009 at 9:22pm
Jelena Private Detective Posts : 587 Joined: 30 SEP 2007 Status : Offline	I feel compelled to tell you (since at least the thread title is about the game) that ECC is a great game with beautiful graphics. The story was interesting and had some nice turns, and even though the puzzles were on the easy side they were very enjoyable. I wasn't familiar with the Oz characters before. I believe I saw the movie when I was a child, but I haven't got almost any memories from it, so getting to know them was a pleasure. Most of all I liked the Scarecrow because of how his voice matched his philosophical nature so very well. Hopefully there will be other ways of distributing this gem of a game except for the Play First download. It deserved an audience and I'd love to hear your opinions on it. Temporary guest in your life.
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#85 12 MAR 2009 at 10:36pm
Deleted User	Hopefully there will be other ways of distributing this gem of a game except for the Play First download. It deserved an audience and I'd love to hear your opinions on it. Most unfortunately you will NOT be getting my opinion or apparently that of many others --- unless and until certain publishers & developers cease the idiotic, senseles, and suicidal policy of differentiating between download & retail boxed games (to the enormous detriment of the former). When, if ever, will they learn that inserting totally ridiculous, useless & harmful codititions does not decrease pirating but probably increases it, and that consequently they are losing sales instead of blindly imagining that they are increasing them !

#86 13 MAR 2009 at 3:32am
Akhilles Private Detective Posts : 581 Joined: 21 JUL 2003 Location: US Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By Jenny100 (12 MAR 2009 3:48pm)* *Originally Posted By Akhilles (12 MAR 2009 2:01pm)* In the earliest days of PC software, it was always said "software is like a book, only one person at a time can be reading a book". That's not exactly true though. Think of someone reading aloud to their kids -- or a teacher reading aloud to a classroom full of students. What I indicated was the ownership, not the dissemination of the material. A book (so long as someone doesn't painstakingly uses a photo-copier and gives away copies) is only owned by a single person. You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.
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#87 13 MAR 2009 at 12:37pm
ags-ssh Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 16 Joined: 20 MAY 2008 Status : Online	*Originally Posted By TheTraveler (4 MAR 2009 9:55pm)* I mean, you are not expecting me to buy 3 copies of the same video, one for each member of the family, are you? Or 3 copies of the same music album? Or even 3 copies of the same console game? So why does this apply to PC games only? Why must PC game lovers always be at the short end of the stick? No wonder PC as a platform is going under. We get the worst deal on all sides; we have to cope with bad ports, we have to wait sometimes up to 2 years (and sometimes forever) for the PC version of a game to appear after it has been released to consoles, and if all of that is not bad enough, we are the ones who now have to try and cope with crappy DRM as well. Well, of course, if you own a Wii you don't copy the games on to a hard disk, and there's no easy way to do so. That's why they don't need to worry so much about DRM. For the latest on all things about Adventure Game Studio, [url=http://ags-ssh.blogspot.com]read my blog![/url]
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#88 13 MAR 2009 at 12:39pm
ags-ssh Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 16 Joined: 20 MAY 2008 Status : Online	*Originally Posted By LenG (12 MAR 2009 6:43pm)* It's more than time that developers &/or publishers finally wake up to the fact that they are just shooting themselves in the foot with these IMMORAL EULA restrictions. How exactly are they immoral? Why can't publishers decide to rent out their games instead of sell them? OK, some people may not want to rent and they'll lose their custom, but how does that turn in to "immoral"? For the latest on all things about Adventure Game Studio, [url=http://ags-ssh.blogspot.com]read my blog![/url]
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#89 13 MAR 2009 at 5:00pm
Deleted User	You're right... 'immoral' was not the correct word, and I can't think of an apt word to describe what I meant which is :- Purportedly *selling* a game through DRM-limited download whereas in actual fact they are merely *renting* it out under several prohibitive conditions which not everybody is fully aware of. True, for those folk who are fully aware of the conditions, do not mind them, and still want to "purchase/rent" their game --- it is in no way "immoral".

#90 13 MAR 2009 at 6:16pm
Jelena Private Detective Posts : 587 Joined: 30 SEP 2007 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By LenG (13 MAR 2009 5:00pm)* which not everybody is fully aware of. ..which is what happened to me. I payed and downloaded the game and later learned through this thread what the deal was. I don't blame anyone though, since I feel it's my own responsibility to check out the deal before purchasing. And on the good side, I got to play a great game. I'm definitely the kind of gamer who likes a copy of the game on the shelf, preferably with a nice box with a manual inside. I don't get more enthusiastic about buying games through downloads in the future when realizing that (in this case) a purchase turned out to be a rental. Temporary guest in your life.
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#91 13 MAR 2009 at 6:43pm
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. *Originally Posted By LenG (13 MAR 2009 5:00pm)* You're right... 'immoral' was not the correct word, and I can't think of an apt word to describe what I meant which is :- Purportedly *selling* a game through DRM-limited download whereas in actual fact they are merely *renting* it out under several prohibitive conditions which not everybody is fully aware of. True, for those folk who are fully aware of the conditions, do not mind them, and still want to "purchase/rent" their game --- it is in no way "immoral". Might I suggest the phrase "self-defeatingly restrictive" to describe excessively protective EULAs and overly intrusive DRM apps, Len? Cheers, Terry
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#92 13 MAR 2009 at 7:52pm
Deleted User	*Originally Posted By ags-ssh (13 MAR 2009 12:37pm)* *Originally Posted By TheTraveler (4 MAR 2009 9:55pm)* I mean, you are not expecting me to buy 3 copies of the same video, one for each member of the family, are you? Or 3 copies of the same music album? Or even 3 copies of the same console game? So why does this apply to PC games only? Why must PC game lovers always be at the short end of the stick? No wonder PC as a platform is going under. We get the worst deal on all sides; we have to cope with bad ports, we have to wait sometimes up to 2 years (and sometimes forever) for the PC version of a game to appear after it has been released to consoles, and if all of that is not bad enough, we are the ones who now have to try and cope with crappy DRM as well. Well, of course, if you own a Wii you don't copy the games on to a hard disk, and there's no easy way to do so. That's why they don't need to worry so much about DRM. ...but I do own a PS2, and with my PS2 games I can loan them out to my auntie, my buddy at work, my grandpa, my neighbor; - nobody seems to care. I can load the disc on as many different machines as I like, and no one seems to care about that either. Jelena wrote: I payed and downloaded the game and later learned through this thread what the deal was. I'm definitely the kind of gamer who likes a copy of the game on the shelf, preferably with a nice box with a manual inside. I don't get more enthusiastic about buying games through downloads in the future when realizing that (in this case) a purchase turned out to be a rental. Sorry to hear about that, Jelena, you're certainly taking it in a good spirit. LenG wrote: You're right... 'immoral' was not the correct word, and I can't think of an apt word to describe what I meant which is :- Purportedly selling a game through DRM-limited download whereas in actual fact they are merely renting it out under several prohibitive conditions which not everybody is fully aware of. How about : "misleading?" I suppose one could have said "deceitful", but as there is a EULA that one can read, (which nobody ever does - how trusting we are... : ) , I suppose that one could be technically be shot down on that one, by being pointed to the fine print.

#93 13 MAR 2009 at 10:17pm
Deleted User	Sorry to hear about your experience Jelena. It does of course point out the very great difference between the simple term "downloadable game" per se and, to use Terry's phrase, "downloadable game with " (self-defeatingly)) restrictive and excessively protective EULAs and overly intrusive DRM apps.". I'm persoally all for simple downladable games with no "self-defeatingly restrictive or excessively protective EULAs or overly intrusive DRM apps". *I'm all against the others, and will not buy one even if I "lose" a good game here or there --- there are plenty more I haven't played, and still many others to be released, so that the loss of 1 or 2 however good doesn't worry me ! Unfortunately IMO, many publishers/developers just say "download" when they are selling "download + severe restrictions" --- in that sense they ARE IMHO somewhat "deceitful* (or certainly misleading)" to use Trav's good descriptions !!

#94 13 MAR 2009 at 11:18pm
shadow9d9 Sorcerer Apprentice Posts : 295 Joined: 17 JUN 2006 Status : Offline	I'm always very cautious about downloading games because of this. That is why I did the research and posted it here in an attempt to warn people. Could be worse. Just the other day I bought Secrets of the Da Vinci, forgetting that I bought it and beat it a year ago! Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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#95 14 MAR 2009 at 7:47am
Deleted User	*Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (13 MAR 2009 11:18pm)* Could be worse. Just the other day I bought Secrets of the Da Vinci, forgetting that I bought it and beat it a year ago! [smiley=rofl.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif] I love it! [smiley=clap.gif] Reading that certainly made me feel much, much better! I had thought that I was bad because I sometimes buy a game (hey, sometimes a game gets re-released with different box-art, as a "budget" buy), that I already have sitting in my closet. At least I've never accidentally bought a game I had already beaten! [smiley=laughing.gif] Thanks for sharing both the warning, and the bit of humor with us, Shadow!

#96 14 MAR 2009 at 3:28pm
Ivinia Guild Master Posts : 4459 Joined: 7 JUN 2003 Location: US Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (13 MAR 2009 11:18pm)* Could be worse. Just the other day I bought Secrets of the Da Vinci, forgetting that I bought it and beat it a year ago! Yeah, I've done this one too. It can be a bit annoying after installing and then when you start to play you're saying, "Hey, wait a sec...this looks familiar..."
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#97 14 MAR 2009 at 3:50pm
JKing Schattenjger Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline	Out of curiosity, what the most copies of a given game you've had? I've had three copies of Dark Forces (and two of a few games), but that's about the extent of it. You can't kill someone in a studio.
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#98 15 MAR 2009 at 12:08am
shadow9d9 Sorcerer Apprentice Posts : 295 Joined: 17 JUN 2006 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By Ivinia (14 MAR 2009 3:28pm)* *Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (13 MAR 2009 11:18pm)* Could be worse. Just the other day I bought Secrets of the Da Vinci, forgetting that I bought it and beat it a year ago! Yeah, I've done this one too. It can be a bit annoying after installing and then when you start to play you're saying, "Hey, wait a sec...this looks familiar..." I remember about 30 minutes after I ordered it online via ebay... figured it wasn't worth asking for a refund... Oh well! Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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#99 15 MAR 2009 at 5:42am
Gonchi Sorcerer Apprentice Posts : 337 Joined: 24 SEP 2007 Status : Online	*Originally Posted By JKing (14 MAR 2009 3:50pm)* Out of curiosity, what the most copies of a given game you've had? I've had three copies of Dark Forces (and two of a few games), but that's about the extent of it. I had up to 3 Leisure Suit Larry 6's at one point, if you count compilations. I had the 3.5" non-talkie version included in the "Greatest Hits and Misses", a budget ValuSoft CD-Rom talkie version, and a complete large boxed CD-Rom talkie version. I've traded out the budget ValuSoft disc (technically, sold it), so I'm down to two. I had numerous games of which I owned 2 copies, but since joining GameTZ I've traded out most of my extras. I still have several around, though. But I've never bought a second copy by mistake, for the most part it was because I bought a budget re-release first and later chanced on a first release or compilation (this was the case with most of my Sierra games). But I'm not so complicated as to flee, &&or stand here in silence. &&But I'm not so simple as to not caution, &&that there aren't three minutes, or a hundred words, that could define me.&&&&[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlR-6Tw-5bE]Brief description of my person[/url] - Cuarteto de Nos
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#100 15 MAR 2009 at 7:02am
Deleted User	Well, I've ended up many times with two or three of an original, when the expansion get's bundled for less than the expansion would be on it's own. This tends to happen a lot with strategy games, like with HOMM 5, the Silver ed. and then the Gold ed, would be cheaper than just getting the expansion itself. This also happenned with Dawn of War, with Total War (the Eras collection), Spellforce Universe had all the Spellforces with one and it expansions, plus two and it's expansions, Gothic Universe had G1-3, and same with UFO trilogy. Oh, also Tropico Gold and The Guild Gold. This kind of thing also happens a lot with the Ubisoft budget buys - such as the CSI trilogy, the Splinter Cell trilogy, and the Prince of Persia trilogy. In all those cases except perhaps with Total War, if you had even one item missing out of the collection, buying the collection would still be cheaper than buying the unbundled version of what you didn't have yet; - so yeah, it's easy to end up with duplicates if you buy the economical route.

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