| 31 MAR 2009 at 9:59pm |
SpiritogreIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 30 SEP 2008
Location: DE
Status : Offline | Oh I see. Please understand that this isn't an ordinary re-release. Someone bought the licence of re-releasing the game and put them on a collection. Usually they have to reconfigure the discs since they put the manual on them and other stuff. Like game magazines when they release games on their cover they remove the copy protection for simplicity, i.e. they print a serial code in the magazine and use this one code for all the games since a game released in a collection or on a magazine doesn't sell anymore so the publisher doesn't care anyways.
Usually games don't get a re-release. Exceptions are gold editions or similar. Most games licences are sold to budget labels after some years, they might remove the copy protection, mostly they simply use the original discs again. That's why I was a bit harsh.
Btw: The publisher won't allow you to remove the DRM just because you ask them nicely...
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| 1 APR 2009 at 7:03am |
ILoveYouIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 56
Joined: 23 MAR 2009
Status : Offline | Thanks for clearing that up. I understand now better. But I do think that when the time comes that the DRM technology used in a specific game won't be compatible with the technology used in computers, they will most likely remove the drm.
I meant that if you have problems caused by DRM, which prevent you from playing it or cause crashes, you should contact the publishers.
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| 10 AUG 2009 at 6:53pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Hello There!
I am tossing my hat into this ring of diverse ideas, and please know that my knowledge of the actual methods and systems used at DRM is rather slim and none. I just wanted to see if anyone might tell me how feasible would the following idea be. I just might be told that it would be too foolish of me to think it or too problematic to consider.
Well……
One thing that I truly look in acquiring a game is its long term use, just as well as my desire to play it or acquire it for posterity. I collect old DOS games and lately Windows games. I look for games that 20 or 30 years from now I will still play for nostalgia’s sake or just plain enjoyment. I have looked for games that have replay value and that do not use either internet verification, or any method that would prevent me from playing it in the future or selling it to someone who might want to acquire one of my games.
The current verification methods more than likely will not around 20 or more years from now. At present I have collected over 2500 games. All of them are originals; most are boxed, with their particular hint books, instructions, box papers and original disks. Whether they are 5 ½, 3 ¼, or CD-ROM’s or DVD’s. Okay, several of games which I own, have the old look up a word in a book and enter it to continue on with the game.
I find this method enabling me to play the game without having the hard drive, or registry inconvenienced with any changes or surreptitious implantations of codes or incompatibility issues. Okay, now if you were attempting to pirate the game, you would simply make a copy of the book or code words, and pirate the game over and over again.
Nowadays I find that too many players complaint about having had to do this, which in retrospect is a great deal better than having all the DRM issues plaguing many players in one form or another.
So how would this method be better?
Well, my question is this. Would a manufacturer of the game find it possible to make a large novel like book, and have every game have a particular and different set of code words, not in a dozen or so, but in hundreds of different code word check ups in a code book strictly paired to a particular game, thus every game has a different set of code words to enter, not all the books being similar but have special code words be unique to that specific game, entered into the book and only that book. The book being large enough to make it an involved affair to have someone list all the code words, and having the words listed in a very light almost invisible ink or in a special ink that would only show up under a particular wavelength of light such as a black light bulb, or whatever else someone else may think of, make it such an involved affair that people would simply not bother to try, unless you were the most ardent pirate willing to do so, and still have a limited amount of copies to sell.
Likewise, since every code book is different, would it make it easier for a seller to track down who bought the original game with its book, and try to find out what happened? You buy the game and you have to register yourself.
If I buy mine, it is my copy, and I can install it as many times as I want, and since my code words are unique, that means that to sell the game you need to buy the original code book with it, otherwise the game is useless. Just sounding off an idea.
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| 10 AUG 2009 at 7:22pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By AShadowWalker (10 AUG 2009 6:53pm)
Hello There!
[highlight]At present I have collected over 2500 games. [/highlight] All of them are originals; most are boxed, with their particular hint books, instructions, box papers and original disks. Whether they are 5 ½, 3 ¼, or CD-ROM’s or DVD’s. Okay, several of games which I own, have the old look up a word in a book and enter it to continue on with the game.
Wow! [smiley=bowdown.gif]
Interesting idea, ShadowWalker. I suppose such a book might still come out cheaper than coding the current type of DRM... I doubt they'd have to have a unique number for every single copy of the game though...
Good to see you back on the forum, btw.
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 4:05pm |
SpiritogreIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 30 SEP 2008
Location: DE
Status : Offline | Back in the 80ies I had a software called Laser Basic on tape. The manual was printed on red paper to make it copy-safe. The problem is, today people simply would scan the manual and put it as PDF.
Making a certain "watermark" for every single user would mean that the user had to register his copy of the software.
In my book the best copy protection today is still the CD/DVD check. Sure one could download a crack and actually I would prefer without that as well for example when playing on a notebook carrying the DVD is pretty uncomfortable.
However the point is, that no matter what copy protection is used the game will be pirated! A PC is not a game console (an even there many people have a built in chip).
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| 30 MAY 2010 at 11:17pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Well...anybody here being following the Ubisoft Splinter Cell Conviction DRM Fandango...aka Texas Cakewalk! :
I will wager that if Red Dead Redemption would have made it possible to import modding into the game....someone would have imported the entire board of director's of Ubisoft and given them a Full Swing Party!
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| 31 MAY 2010 at 10:22am |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2752
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Online | I know that it has been cracked a long time ago, but apart from that, I've not followed it. It really is one of those DRMs that punishes the buyer, not the pirate. While I have a very solid 100/100 line that almost never goes down, what worries me is what happens when ubisoft change copy protection/the company stops supporting their games (EA has shown how unwilling certain companies can be to support their games).
.someone would have imported the entire board of director's of Ubisoft and given them a Full Swing Party!
Might make for a good fallout 3 mod?
Almost everyone knows how to get a crack these days (google "game name"+crack), so a basic disc check is of questionable value. It might prevent a few hobby copies, but that is about it. On the other hand, most disc checks cause very little trouble (I've only had problem with securom once, and that was with my copy of Sam & max season 1, and I only had problems with the 5th episode).
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| 31 MAY 2010 at 5:52pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Fnord (31 MAY 2010 10:22am)
It really is one of those DRMs that punishes the buyer, not the pirate. While I have a very solid 100/100 line that almost never goes down, what worries me is what happens when ubisoft change copy protection/the company stops supporting their games (EA has shown how unwilling certain companies can be to support their games).
That is precisely my same thought. I collect games and then after X number of years, when the company is neither around nor wishing to support the game, all they do is.......POOF!!! No link!!!!....and your goose is cooked if you want to either play it again, or sell the original game with all the original paraphernilia to someone else to enjoy its nostalgia value or simply have it in their collection.
Gamers need to start feeling empowered by collecting their determination and letting these companies feel their discontent.
For me it would be TOTAL disregard for anything made by or from Ubisoft.........
[size=20]CARNIFICO OMNIS!!
Problem is though, console weenies (young one's....and many older one's too) are often unwilling to contribute their support to the [size=16]CAUSE!
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| 8 JUN 2010 at 6:06pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2539
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | it is improtant for them to be smart and not too draconian about protection, yes we need it, but we dont need our systems ruined by it or to have a unusable game if the company disapperas...and many if not most will or do. Sorry but that is the truth of game companies...they seem to have a limited life even the best of em.
Admin
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| 9 JUN 2010 at 3:02pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By CrisGer (8 JUN 2010 6:05pm)
it is improtant for them to be smart and not too draconian about protection, yes we need it, but we dont need our systems ruined by it or to have a unusable game if the company disapperas...and many if not most will or do. Sorry but that is the truth of game companies...they seem to have a limited life even the best of em.
[size=24]HEAR, HEAR [img]http://images.clipartof.com/thumbnails100/34153.jpg[/img]
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| 31 JUL 2010 at 1:08pm |
New WolfboySpace Cadet
Posts : 133
Joined: 27 JUL 2010
Status : Online | And the fun thing is, I'm STILL having to remove Starforce every time I install Moment of Silence.
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| 11 AUG 2010 at 6:30pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Zanafarr (31 JUL 2010 1:08pm)
And the fun thing is, I'm STILL having to remove Starforce every time I install Moment of Silence.
........................ [smiley=hair_pull.gif] [smiley=furious.gif] [smiley=eww.gif] [smiley=angry.gif] [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=shudder.gif] [smiley=shaking_head.gif] [smiley=raise_eyebrow.gif]
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| 20 APR 2011 at 12:00am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Thought I'd revive this thread to chime in with my 2-cents worth. Black markets arise for 1 of 2 reasons: (1) from offical limits placed on the acessibilty to certain goods [US Prohibition or Soviet era economy] or (2) over-priced goods. Scenario 1 certainly doesn't apply to our commercial world awash in products, so it must be that the price being asked is simply too high.
I think the main question at stake in the whole DRM discussion is what is the natural price level for gaming entertainment. My feeling is that if the producers were willing to try it, lowering their asking price 1/3 or 1/4 would kill most unsanctioned downloading and boost the number of games moved to the point they would find themselves well ahead - or at least ahead enough that they could devote more energy to making games rather than devising DRM tactics, litigating, lobbying legistatures etc.
Perhaps in the era of store shelf sales this was too risky a strategy. But with the advent of direct downloads and the Netflix business model, only hubris is holding the big companies back.
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| 20 APR 2011 at 8:38am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Good post, Tincup.
If only they'd rather use the cash they waste on DRM, to make anti-pirating propaganda, and to cut back on prices.
I think the makers of the DRM software are probably in large part to blame as well, since they market their products very aggressively to gaming publishers and devs, somehow managing to make them believe that their products can actually stem the tide of piracy.
This is a bit of a joke, I personally think, since I think the hackers who crack DRM probably do it for fun and a challenge.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 20 APR 2011 at 7:21pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | This is a bit of a joke, I personally think, since I think the hackers who crack DRM probably do it for fun and a challenge.
...without a doubt.
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| 21 APR 2011 at 1:49am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By mgonneau (20 APR 2011 12:00am)
I think the main question at stake in the whole DRM discussion is what is the natural price level for gaming entertainment. My feeling is that if the producers were willing to try it, lowering their asking price 1/3 or 1/4 would kill most unsanctioned downloading and boost the number of games moved to the point they would find themselves well ahead - or at least ahead enough that they could devote more energy to making games rather than devising DRM tactics, litigating, lobbying legistatures etc.
I don't know whether eliminating DRM would reduce downloading, but I will say that there are certain games I refuse to buy because they contain certain invasive types of copy "protection." When I first started gaming, I'd buy any adventure that came out. Not anymore. Now I have to wait until I find out what type of copy "protection" is being used so I can avoid the game if it's one of the bad ones. By that time, I may already have heard enough negative feedback about the game that I'm not interested in buying it anymore (as with 15 Days).
I don't download warez versions of games. If a game isn't sold with tolerable copy "protection," I simply don't play it at all. But I might as well be downloading the warez as far as the bottom line of the game company is concerned because either way I'm not buying it.
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| 21 APR 2011 at 2:42am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Jenny - I'm not saying eliminating DRM will eliminate piracy, but lowering the price enough will - and to their benifit!
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| 21 APR 2011 at 10:59am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By mgonneau (21 APR 2011 2:42am)
Jenny - I'm not saying eliminating DRM will eliminate piracy, but lowering the price enough will - and to their benifit!
I'm thinking both these would help, and if the publisher doesn't have to pay for the DRM software, then they will be in a better position financially, to lower the price.
Making the gamer aware that piracy hurts the industry might also help.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 APR 2011 at 5:50pm |
| Deleted User | I apologize for possibly diverting the topic but I’ve noticed that on the new Games for Windows discs the first lines that read
“Do not lend or make
illegal copies of this disc.”
As for making a duplicate copy of the game disc, the answer is no. The basic program I use to burn CDs and DVDs recognizes the copy protection on the disc and returns an error message.
I’m not really sure though about the first part as to exactly what it implies other then that it sounds like they have balls. For example, suppose I was to let the neighbor borrow it or even possibly offer it up for resale on a public forum such as Ebay. Either way I’d get the game back or receive some or most of the money back that I paid. As a violator what might I expect? Could I be fined or jailed?
Or, which to me seems the more likely scenario, it is just a polite suggestion designed purposely to initiate feelings of guilt of alleged lost sales. Go figure.
In the past many of the games that I don’t plan on re-playing on a regular basis get donated. I’ll plead the fifth on where, but I guess for now I’ll just have to think twice or else watch my back. :-X
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| 21 APR 2011 at 6:07pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | I think there is a principal called First Use which limits a vendor's claim to the intital buyer of a product. This is what makes the re-sale of used mechandise legal in most countries. But makers of digital products are now leaning heavily on the courts and enforcement agencies to change this so they have more extensive rights over the use of their products after sale. Check out this Wiki on digital copyright:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
Also wiki "first use" in this context.
General copyright duration has increased from 7 years in the initial US Constitution to over 70 now [big corporate holders like Dinsney quietly get it bumped up in Congress every few years] allowing ownership rights to extend through multiple generations, rather that simply guaranteeing the originator a fair return on his/her idea. The DRM movement is trying to make similar inroads into traditional legal ownership arrangements - not a good sign if you can't lend something you bought to your sister withought breach of contract. I'm no lawyer but this looks like it will get ugly..
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| 21 APR 2011 at 8:01pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | What really bugs me, is if you're a family of gamers and father, mother, brother and sister might all want to play the game, but the game is limited to one PC only.
I mean, what the heck - a family can watch a film together, and I can play a film or a music CD on any of the players I have in the house, and thus share it with family members, but one cannot do the same with your games? You're seriously telling me I'm breaking the law if I let my spouse or live-in partner or child play a game I bought and also played? That would fall under "lend".)
I cannot think of any other intellectual property that is so restrictive, and boy, it's definitely not the cheapest form of IP either!
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 APR 2011 at 8:42pm |
| Deleted User | I don't know honestly, but I'm glad at least that others share my resentment over something that I can't or shouldn't do. Ever since I first noticed it on The Witcher Enhanced Edition it's been an itch that I just can't scratch. [img]http://justadventure.com/yabb/Smilies/thumbsdown.gif[/img]
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| 21 APR 2011 at 8:59pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | The Witcher: Enhanced Edition is coming to GOG soon -- for $9.99.
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/the_witcher
They even have a "coming soon" page for Witcher 2, though for significantly more than $9.99. At least they say it has no DRM.
http://www.gog.com/en/page/tw2v3
I wonder if they'll offer other DRM-free new games in the future.
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| 22 APR 2011 at 12:49am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | I mean, what the heck - a family can watch a film together, and I can play a film or a music CD on any of the players I have in the house, and thus share it with family members, but one cannot do the same with your games?
Exactly
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