| 23 DEC 2008 at 4:43pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
You're right of course Avatar_58. Steam is a form of DRM and I have no big issues with that type of closed online distribution system.
However, the most common forms of DRM that everyone complains about are intrusive and problematic for legal buyers, and ineffective as a deterrent to piracy.
The publishers who use the latter kind of DRM need to take a serious reality check. They are wasting money several ways.
For every would-be pirate it might deter, there are 100 angry paying customers swearing never to buy another product from that comany or at the very least, trying to return the games at retail stores and flooding tech support with requests for help.
Meanwhile, millions of pirates the world over are laughing their butts off at these feeble attempts to thwart them. If anything, their numbers have grown higher as a result of ongoing problems with intrusive forms of DRM.
Cheers, Terry
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| 23 DEC 2008 at 4:49pm |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (23 DEC 2008 4:43pm)
.
You're right of course Avatar_58. Steam is a form of DRM and I have no big issues with that type of closed online distribution system.
However, the most common forms of DRM that everyone complains about are intrusive and problematic for legal buyers, and ineffective as a deterrent to piracy.
The publishers who use the latter kind of DRM need to take a serious reality check. They are wasting money several ways.
For every would-be pirate it might deter, there are 100 angry paying customers swearing never to buy another product from that comany or at the very least, trying to return the games at retail stores and flooding tech support with requests for help.
Meanwhile, millions of pirates the world over are laughing their butts off at these feeble attempts to thwart them. If anything, their numbers have grown higher as a result of ongoing problems with intrusive forms of DRM.
Cheers, Terry
Keep in mind they aren't trying to stop the expert pirates, just the casual "hey let me burn you a copy" pirates - which Securom is quite successful at.
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| 23 DEC 2008 at 5:16pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Evidently, casual users all over the world are finding it remarkably easy to get illegal copies. Not just for games, but for all types of software and other copyrighted content.
As for stopping expert hackers, well that's another thing altogether. The point there is that they crack the code and strip away the DRM so all those millions of little pirates can play games for free and without any of the related hassles we legal buyers are often saddled with.
They can play offline with no security checks and unlimited installs. Most importantly though, they can burn and give away hard copies to their heart's content - copies that of course also have no form of DRM.
Problem is that the real hackers are very secretive and therefore hard as hell to find. And as our global society has grown more and more tech savvy, their numbers seem to be multiplying. There's just such a large pool of raw tech talent out there (all over the place) and practically everyone has access to PCs and the web.
Cheers, Terry
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| 28 DEC 2008 at 1:12am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | It's probably impossible to distinguish an illegal download from someone who didn't buy the game from an illegal download from someone who bought the game and wasn't able to play it because of the DRM, or who had diminished performance in the game because of the DRM, or who just got fed up with the DRM's limitations for some other reason (maybe they didn't want to have to put the disc in the drive on a laptop or whatever). You can't say that people who'd bought the game would be getting a crack instead of the download because cracks often don't work on all versions of a game, even same language versions. But if you get the crack along with the download, or download a cracked version, you don't have that problem.
Originally Posted By krexfoster (17 DEC 2008 8:01pm)
I thought Ascaron did a wonderful job in "punishing" folks who were using a hacked version of Sacred:
Within the code (I don't know how, so don't ask me) if the game detected that you were using a pirated copy, or a NO CD patch, or anything along those lines, it would warp your character to this island slightly southwest of the mainland map... and there was nary a way to get off the island. You had to restart your from your last save point, and after an undetermined amount of time, it would once again warp you to the island.
So what happens if this system malfunctions, and with a legally purchased, uncracked version of the game you get left on this island because of some idiosyncracy of your computer configuration. Not only are you not able to play the game, but you are insulted by people who assume you have a cracked copy when you ask for help. If detection systems were infallible, we wouldn't have people who aren't able to play their legally purchased games because of the DRM -- and we've already seen many of those.
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| 28 DEC 2008 at 11:53pm |
XerNosamSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 339
Joined: 3 SEP 2007
Location: US, California
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (28 DEC 2008 1:12am)
So what happens if this system malfunctions, and with a legally purchased, uncracked version of the game you get left on this island because of some idiosyncracy of your computer configuration. Not only are you not able to play the game, but you are insulted by people who assume you have a cracked copy when you ask for help. If detection systems were infallible, we wouldn't have people who aren't able to play their legally purchased games because of the DRM -- and we've already seen many of those.
I would say that the person having the problem would post endlessly on forums complaining about the problem they are having, just like everyone else does. I never said it was "infallible", I just thought it clever.
As Terry mentioned, most DRM nowadays is crap, and needs to be reevaluated. And again, I've personally never had a single issue due to DRM measures, but with the deluge of folks that do, it's apparent that it's a huge mess.
Playing: Skyrim: Dragonborn/Dawnguard; Torchlight 2; To The Moon; Far Cry 3
Finished: HomeFront; Far Cry 3; Dishonored
Always Playing: Half Life 2
Looking Forward To: BioShock: Infinite
Reading: BioShock: Rapture; SW: Revan
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| 30 DEC 2008 at 1:16am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Here's one for you.
3D Studio Max. To date over $4,000 spent on that program. Had to do a Windows reinstall a month or two ago and ended up having to reinstall my dev tools because (despite having them on separate drives), they still needed to be registered with Windows in order to work. I put off 3DS for last because there are a lot of plug-ins I've purchased for that one (Over $2,000 worth). Everything reinstalled and worked just fine. All the Visual Studio languages, The Adobe Designer Suite, etc, etc. All were easily able to take the license code and run with no problems.
Then came 3DS.
No dice. It keeps looking for some service that was supposedly installed when I reinstalled it. After following numerous tips on this problem, I ended up uninstalling and reinstalling it about a dozen times (literally!). Sometime after a reboot, sometimes after disabling my anti-virus software - you get the idea.
Finally I contact Autodesk and they recommended that I get some PC tools thing that will clean up any gunk that could be causing a problem with their licensing portion of code - along with telling me that this is a Windows issue, not 3DS issue. So I spend the $30 on this thing and it cleans stuff and I still can't get this thing to run.
In a nutsell, they are telling me I need to completely format my drive and reinstall Windows on this clean drive since I had reinstalled it over the top on another install that had an issue. (BTW, the "issue" I had turned out to be a broken mouse....).
I'm rather ticked off about it. As a legitimate customer, I've gotten hosed because of their DRM. I am so not looking forward to doing this either. It took a couple of days to reinstall all the programs I need.
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| 30 DEC 2008 at 12:15pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | A broken mouse? What, do they use random mouse input to generate a crytographic key? Bizarre.
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 30 DEC 2008 at 12:20pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | No that was the reason I reinstalled Windows. What would be the odds that both mice I tried on this thing had the same exact issue? (Which was periodic mouse freezing)
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| 1 MAR 2009 at 3:10pm |
InesrocksPrivate Detective
Posts : 682
Joined: 16 OCT 2008
Location: PT
Status : Offline | In my opinion, and although there will always be piracy, not only in games but in music, movies, series etc, DRM only contributes to even more piracy.
Why would one bother to purchase a game, many times too expensive for many wallets, with its own money to have it installed and then get a message with a random error preventing them to play the game? Obviously one turns to piracy as besides being cheaper and faster, the mods and fixes are way faster to appear than the official game patches, that is if the company releases any patch at all...
So, unless the prices of the games get less expensive and the security problems dissapear, the piracy will eventually just grow... and that will not only hurt the companies but the gamers as well.
Remember, the profit in general comes from mass releases with low cost of production that leads to cheaper prices and eventually to more sellings. Give a kid a choice to buy a 60€ RPG game when he has a computer that can give him the game for free in 2h... what do you think he will chose? And is it all his fault? I don't think so...
Playing: Skyrim (ongoing)
Last Finished: can't recall, been too long.
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| 7 MAR 2009 at 2:42pm |
SpiritogreIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 30 SEP 2008
Location: DE
Status : Offline | I said it before and I say it again. I will never ever buy a single player offline games with DRM. I would prefer an illegal copy before that. Simply because I can play this illegal copy in ten/20 years...
As a collector however I stay away from illegal copies. There are still companies out there who can earn my money since they don't use DRM.
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| 9 MAR 2009 at 8:32pm |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Spiritogre (7 MAR 2009 2:41pm)
I said it before and I say it again. I will never ever buy a single player offline games with DRM. I would prefer an illegal copy before that. Simply because I can play this illegal copy in ten/20 years...
As a collector however I stay away from illegal copies. There are still companies out there who can earn my money since they don't use DRM.
I have to agree with the above quote. In fact I took it one step further. Remember the issue of drm on music disk uncovered by Mark Russinovich which Sony perpetrated a few years ago? Sony denied any involvement and questioned Russinovich's research ability. Then Sony tried to minimized the scheme only to get clobbered by public opinion. Well it is the same Sony that is responsible for the nefarious DRM used by EA. This latest "improved" DRM convinces me that Sony cares nothing about end user concerns and is operating in total disregard of the customer. One can't effectively police every product and corporate behavior, it is beyond the ability of the average victim. However, in the past few years my digital still camera, DVD camcorder, High Def TV, various pc drives etc all have one thing in common. They do not bear the Sony logo, that includes music disk, nor will any in the future. As it is my opinion that I can deflect the same total disrespect to Sony they have directed toward me the consumer.
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| 10 MAR 2009 at 11:54am |
karlaAdministrator
Posts : 2588
Joined: 27 JUL 2003
Location: US, Close to the Edge
Status : Offline | I have nothing against DRM unless it renders a game unplayable and/or messes with one's computer.
As I mentioned in another thread last November, I was supposed to review Everlight, which uses SecuROM, for JA. But I'd start the game, the disc would be checked, and the game wouldn't run.
I wasn't able to uninstall it and had to use System Restore to get rid of it. Then I reinstalled it. Nothing changed.
When I tried to uninstall it again, neither the game's uninstaller or add/remove programs would work -- both froze up. I also discovered that System Restore had stopped working.
As long as Everlight was on my HDD, I was unable to install any other games.
I did finally get the game uninstalled, but not wiithout Windows crashing a few times. Then I discovered that my anti-virus program had been blown to bits.
Since that time, Windows has kept on crashing, saying it's experienced a "serious error."
Randy ultimately assigned the Everlight review to someone else. The game wouldn't run for her, either.
Maybe all of this is just coincidental. However, as long as TAC is using SecuROM, I won't be touching any of their games.
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| 10 MAR 2009 at 7:51pm |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | As far as DRM goes I submit the creative people who work hard to produce games and other digital programs as well certainly have a right to protect their work. On the other hand the designers of DRM appear to have no interest in regard to the end users rights, (paying customers). If one is smart enough to design something that protects digital properties why can't they figure out what works without adversely effecting the customer's pc? Don't you think these guys have a few pcs in their shop? Don't you think it would not be very time consuming to load up their DRM on their machines to see what impact their product really has on the user's end? Don't you get the impression they don't care?
Considering the vast array of problems these DRM's cause it appears they skip this step. Or they do test and cannot figure out how to accomplish both ideals. (Protect the product and end user machines.) They are not quite smart enough to do that and care nothing about the customer. It is the publisher who's paying for their service. So they push it out the door because their lame DRM if not already hacked will allow unhacked sales for a few days. They can claim problems are not caused by our DRM it must be the stupid end user who does not understand their pc.
As one who buys games I resent this attitude as it is people like me who keep these guys in business. If the industry has no regard for my investment why should I support them? Yes I like games and will miss them if those who shove DRMs down our throats don't wise up and treat the customer with respect. It comes down to Piracy is a fact of life. It is a part of doing business in the digital product creation world. This is something the industry needs to accept, either figure out how to protect your creativity without violating my rights or go out of business. I enjoy playing your games but I can do fine without them. You on the other hand need me more than I need you. Get a clue!
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| 25 MAR 2009 at 12:20pm |
ILoveYouIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 56
Joined: 23 MAR 2009
Status : Offline | Many of the games which originally were released with DRM (such as Starforce) have now been re-released without any copy protection, so I don't think there's going to be a problem if you want to re-play a game in let's say 10 years.
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| 26 MAR 2009 at 7:14pm |
SpiritogreIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 30 SEP 2008
Location: DE
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By ILoveYou (25 MAR 2009 12:19pm)
Many of the games which originally were released with DRM (such as Starforce) have now been re-released without any copy protection, so I don't think there's going to be a problem if you want to re-play a game in let's say 10 years.
Do you have a proof for that? Official statement and examples. And a download link for the Starforce removal tool for the Starforce infected games?
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| 26 MAR 2009 at 10:30pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By ILoveYou (25 MAR 2009 12:19pm)
Many of the games which originally were released with DRM (such as Starforce) have now been re-released without any copy protection, so I don't think there's going to be a problem if you want to re-play a game in let's say 10 years.
I can say The Black Mirror still has StarForce attached to it. I got it on Amazon several weeks ago and it had it. :-/
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| 27 MAR 2009 at 12:08pm |
ShanyGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 19 JUN 2003
Status : Online | Just be warned that the Starforce removal tool can mess up your computer. I accidentally installed it (it didn't even give me a chance to cancel!) and it messed up my registry so that I had to reinstall Windows.
Starforce itself did not mess up my computer.
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| 28 MAR 2009 at 1:15pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Shany (27 MAR 2009 12:08pm)
Just be warned that the Starforce removal tool can mess up your computer. I accidentally installed it (it didn't even give me a chance to cancel!) and it messed up my registry so that I had to reinstall Windows.
Starforce itself did not mess up my computer.
Shany, what made you look into the registry in the first place, if I may ask? I'm interested to know what 'symptoms' I should look for.
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| 28 MAR 2009 at 5:12pm |
ShanyGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 19 JUN 2003
Status : Online | Actually, I didn't look at the registry, I just assume it messed with it because I got the Blue Screen of Death after the installation.
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| 30 MAR 2009 at 2:43am |
ArkadiaPrivate Detective
Posts : 558
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | DRM for The Sims 3 Confirmed
"The game will have disc-based copy protection – there is a Serial Code just like The Sims 2. To play the game there will not be any online authentication needed.
We feel like this is a good, time-proven solution that makes it easy for you to play the game without DRM methods that feel overly invasive or leave you concerned about authorization server access in the distant future. "
Joy!
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| 30 MAR 2009 at 12:31pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | That is indeed good news, Arkadia! I'd prefer no disc check, of course, but baby steps. A step back is a step in the right direction. [smiley=thumbs.gif]
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 30 MAR 2009 at 3:53pm |
| Deleted User | Personally, I see nothing wrong with disc checks or serial codes. I can live quite happily with them. 8-)
(As long as the disc check doesn't mess with my registry, and as long as it works, still allowing me to play the game!)
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| 30 MAR 2009 at 9:20pm |
SpiritogreIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 30 SEP 2008
Location: DE
Status : Offline | Yeah, when I heard about The Sims 3 I was quite happy. Now I just hope that EA releases all their games, especially Dragon Age, without DRM. After all they wait with the Dragon Age release for PC till the console versions are finished to make more money with them.
Next step for EA would be to not shut down the online mode of their games after two years. It's really disappointing not being able to play the multiplayer part of i.e. Need for Speed Carbon since they don't offer a LAN mode anymore.
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| 31 MAR 2009 at 3:39am |
ArkadiaPrivate Detective
Posts : 558
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | I think serial codes/disk checks are the most efficient copy protection. Well, at least efficient against myself... I have lost the manuals to far too many games that ask for my CD serial number. So I can't play them anymore Black and White and The Sims 2 come to mind. Darn it!
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