| 16 OCT 2008 at 8:09am |
| Deleted User | Well, congratulations, KingRyan! It's so nice to see such talented, gifted, positive young people such as yourself around! 8-)
I hope verything is going well with your writing.
Are you still writing short stories, btw?
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 10:59am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | And long may you continue to write KingRyan. Let's have a cake, shall we.
[img]http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6089/chocolatecakesqf7.jpg
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Why stop at one? [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 11:34am |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1316
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Happy anniversary, KingRyan! May you continue to enjoy adventure games and write about it for many years to come!
Caroline, some of those cakes aren't chocolate !
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 11:56am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | still scrumptious though....
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 3:25pm |
KingRyanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 281
Joined: 25 JAN 2004
Status : Online | @Traveler: Yes, I am still writing short stories! I got a rejection letter from a magazine in September and just sent out something new - hopefully the 4th time's the charm! I'm also 25,000 words into a novel...
[size=14][b]Currently Playing:[/b]&&Sherlock Holmes: Nemesis[/size]
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 4:25pm |
| Deleted User | King Ryan, don't give up! I'm sure you know that JK Rowling's first Harry Potter manuscript was rejected by twelve publishing houses before it was accepted.
So it's often a matter of finding the right target.
Short stories in a magazine are a good way of starting - Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories, for instance, started off like that.
When they reject a work of yours, do they give reasons? You must add a note to your manuscript mentioning that you are still young and would like some guidance as to the reasons for rejections.
A while back I attended a writer's workshop where most of the speakers from publishing houses spoke about the reasons for rejection. It is important to give a writer direction, to know what his target audience and target publisher should be, and also why his work is being rejected.
Please share the outcome with us here, even if you do get rejected.
Keeping our fingers crossed for your 4th time!
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 5:29pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Online | .
Traveler's right KR.
Keep writing, keep submitting and keep your chin up.
Cheers, Terry
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 9:47pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Magazines and publishing houses are inundated with unsolicited manuscripts - so they don't give out advice.
And of course he will keep writing - it's in his blood - he has no choice.
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 10:04pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Online | .
Good point Caroline.
So let me amend that to . . .
Keep writing, keep submitting (to both publications and reputable literary agents), and keep your chin up.
Cheers, Terry
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 10:59pm |
| Deleted User | Huh? Sir Dave had a very good post up here and now it is gone!
Magazines and publishing houses are inundated with unsolicited manuscripts - so they don't give out advice.
Yes, that's true, Caroline, which is why I mentioned he should maybe specifically request it. Some people are more polite (less tired and overworked) than others, and any input they'd be prepared to give would be valuable.
I actually met a ‘screener’ proofreader at that workshop, who quickly dampened my enthusiasm to go for such a job myself (just by virtue of loving reading :), by describing all the pages and pages of rubbish they have to wade through.
I suppose it all depends which kind of magazine KR is submitting to – some magazines do welcome “new blood” and actually have some space set aside for stories from “amateurs”/beginners/freelancers.
SirDave mentioned that writing is a career/activity that takes a long time to develop, and one shouldn’t expect results while too young.
I can only agree with that, but on the other hand, the one or two reviews that I have read by KR, came across as very mature for a lad of 16 – 17 IMO.
As Terry and Caroline will both agree, I’m sure- the important thing is to carry on writing, as it takes practise, practise, practise. I just feel that feedback is also important. Remember that you get feedback from your Uni course, Caroline. Maybe KR could join a writing club or do a formal or informal course, so as to help him develop as a writer, which might be a better idea than to submit to magazines at this early age, where rejection could dishearten you.
That was one of the good points pointed out by SirDave. (I think?)
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| 16 OCT 2008 at 11:39pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | I too have done short courses in writing and how to get published. One recent workshop was run by a lady who worked for HarperCollins in New York (before returning home to Australia for lifestyle decisions).
She said she gets 500 manuscripts PER WEEK in her office and she has to look at them all. She has a strict policy, 1st paragraph? if that's okay, she'll read the entire page. If it makes the first page, she'll go the second, but if at any stage it falters it's in the dump pile.
She also said publishers don't want entire manuscripts. They just want the first two chapters and a synopsis. If you can't write an interesting synopsis, chances are you can't write an interesting book. Remember, 500 per week - these people don't have time to write little friendly notes. They are hard-nosed, hard pressed professionals who have no time to nurture wannabees. And the world is full of wannabees.
Less than 2% of submitted manuscripts are actually read all the way through and considered for publication.
Those manuscripts that are incorrectly addressed are automatically dumped regardless....
Those manuscripts that are not accompanied by self addressed envelopes and international return postage are burnt.
Depressing? Yes. But despite those figures new books appear in the shops every week.
It's all a matter of targeting your writing to the audience (and that isn't the reader, it's the publisher).
Publishing houses usually have guidelines on their websites about what sort of stuff they look for.
I know several writers, some published others still trying. They all have something in common - they can't help themselves, they simply have to write.
Not every writer wants a career as a famous author. The poet society I belong to is filled by the most amazing collection of ordinary folks who produce the most incredible stuff. I think there's probably more creativity inside the average human than we think.
Most authors have a day job. JK Rowling shouldn't be spoken of in the same context as other writers. Oh, and the average fee for paperbacks that makes it to the writer's pocket is..... $1 per book.
The average minimum print run in Australia is 3000 books. The average minimum print run in America is 25,000.
Getting an agent is the best first step - if you can find one who'll read your work. Agents can get your work looked at by the publishing houses and they can also get it read and assessed by professional editors - these are the people who will provide expert feedback on a manuscript. Writers can pay these editors themselves to assess their work.
A lot of writers don't finish their manuscripts until they have had their book proposal (2 chapters and synopsis) accepted.
There are writing magazines (like there are for fishing and photography, etc), books on writing, courses and workshops on writing... there's an entire industry of people servicing the creative drive to write and there's a never-ending supply of customers for these books and classes. It's truly amazing. It's like Art or Music.
Failure to make it big is no indication of lack of talent. Fashion and luck and timing all come into it.
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 2:28am |
KingRyanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 281
Joined: 25 JAN 2004
Status : Online | You all have such great advice and experience!
So far, because I primarily write short stories of the mystery/suspense genre, I have submitted my work to Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine. They have a Dept. of First Stories, so I get a response in about 3 months, which is pretty fast; Alfred Hitchcock's Mystery Magazine, which does NOT have a special section for first-time authors, took 6 months to respond the one time I submitted there. I had forgotten I'd even sent anything to them!
I have 2 mentors who frequently read my work and give honest, invaluable feedback. Both are published authors, one a retired high school English teacher who still writes short stories and attends a writers group; the other currently a TV writer who's written screenplays and short stories. (A third mentor, another published author, passed away suddenly earlier this year.) In addition, I have friends and teachers who read and critique my work.
That's pretty much where I stand right now. I've received 3 rejections from EQMM and 1 from AHMM. Right now I am focused on EQMM because they're one of the few magazines that will publish both first-time authors and mystery fiction. However, I am always on the lookout for new writing contests!! Right now I am putting together a portfolio to submit to the National Foundation for Advancement in the Arts' Young Artists program....
[size=14][b]Currently Playing:[/b]&&Sherlock Holmes: Nemesis[/size]
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 2:49am |
Robin56Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 23
Joined: 29 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Good to see that I'm not the only one wasting his life here
Robin56, king of JA+.
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 6:30am |
| Deleted User | Well, there you go. Caroline (in a very informative post) put across what I was trying to say: rejection of a manuscript does not mean per se that your work is not good. Many factors are at play. The competition is extremely fierce, and the market for your specific style/subject has to be right.
Glad to hear about your mentors and support, KRyan. I also know a few published authors (although I have some non-fiction stuff published in local magazines, sadly no books or anything fancy by me ). I know from their experiences, that even having one or more published successful short story collections/novellas/novels does not guarantee automatic acceptance of new work.
After 5 published books (one of them a novella that has been used as a set work for 1st year university students), my one acquaintance simply could not get his 6th book published, until he eventually (after 2 or 3 years) found a very obscure little publisher and had rewritten large parts of the manuscript. So it's not an easy road.
It would seem to me that KR is on the right track, and I, for one, wish him all the best!
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 3:05pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Traveler, I took it down, but in view of the last 2 or 3 posts, here it is:
This is just my 2 cents- and may not be worth that.
If I were advising KR, I would be saying that it is premature to be trying to get professionally published. The various papers, short stories and novels that get published are usually the result of years of maturation of the person and the writing skill itself. Trying to get published too early sets one up for a fall because it prematurely sets up the measure of success as being whether something gets published or not. The fact is that the writing itself may be excellent for one's age, but that doesn't mean that it has reached the point where publishers are prepared to spend money printing it.
KR appears to be an extremely bright young adult and my guess is that his writing is already light years ahead of most of his peers. And what is most admirable and makes for a good prognosis is that he loves to write. So, I would put all my energy into a university education (which he should be on the verge of) with strong majors directed at a future in the writing field. There will be many opportunites to do amateur writing in university and you will find people that will be willing to give you a lot of direction on how to succeed in the professional area ie. get published. You may even find that you develop an interest in writing in fields other than non-fiction or that you have a particular talent for writing in areas that will bring you steady income while, on the side, you write a great novel.
I would think of it this way: If it were practical for teenagers to get professionally published, there would be a lot more of them out there. Professional writing, particularly good fiction, requires a lot of skill, education (usually but not always of course) and a lot of living and not just anyone can do it; trying to succeed too early implies that one can take a shortcut. Woodward & Bernstein in the nonfiction area and all those in the fiction area didn't get there overnight.
None of this is meant to be in any way a negative. On the contrary, I wouldn't bother giving a bit of a different perspective, if I didn't think that KR is rather remarkable for his age. I'll say this: I would bet the farm that if any one can succeed in this field it is him.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 4:46pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Online | .
Sound advice Dave.
I would however not discourage KR from continuing to pursue an opportunity like Ellery Queen's First-Time Writer program. Entering contests is also a great way to get some exposure.
It's also very important for him to learn more about today's traditional print publishing business as well as to identify emerging new media like e-books, interactive storytelling, self-publishing options on the web and other digital outlets.
The world is changing and we no longer have such a rigid set of rules that govern what gets communicated to large audiences or how or when.
There are simply more channels these days for young writers like KR (and in fact all writers) to use in reaching an audience and who knows what styles or genres may appeal to various next-generation market sectors?
One thing Caroline pointed out that ties to success in traditional publishing is getting a good literary agent or at least seeking their advice on tailoring your work to specific audiences and how best to submit project proposals to established publishing houses.
Again, that all comes with learning more about the business...
Cheers, Terry
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 5:46pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (17 OCT 2008 4:45pm)
.
It's also very important for him to learn more about today's traditional print publishing business as well as to identify emerging new media like e-books, interactive storytelling, self-publishing options on the web and other digital outlets.
Terry, your mentioning e-books just gave me an earth-shaking idea for KR: I don't know if people are aware of Amazon's Kindle, but in short it is the latest e-book reader that has a built in internet connection so that you can download best-sellers in a minute for around $10, not to mention magazines such as Time for $1.86/month!!
I've had mine for several months and love it, but here's the thing: Amazon supports self-publishing! (I've been researching it a bit myself.) If you know how to create PDF files and you study up a little on the Kindle's requirements for text & graphics (pretty much based on basic HTML & jpgs), you can write a novel, short stories, how-to books, whatever and get them published- everything is accepted. (Note that you can write your novel or whatever using MS Word & then convert it to PDF. Open Office actually does a 'free' PDF conversion for that matter!) It's just a question of whether you make much money.
Essentially, you set your own price and Amazon pays you a royalty of about 35%- keep in mind though that for this you get tremendous exposure since millions are accessing Amazon for books these days. Of course, the numbers of people buying Kindles are still somewhat limited, but I have no doubt that this is the wave of the future. If KR got in on the ground floor here, he would be way ahead. My core advice still stands, but this is a situation where you can submit whatever you want- no rejection etc. And it would be a good sideline/training ground for someone who just wants to publish no matter what!
BTW: The Kindle is not a flash-in-the-pan. This is the real deal! Amazon is a veritable powerhouse in the book-selling area (and increasingly in all other areas). They are totally committed to the Kindle & if you go onto Amazon and research it a bit there and/or with Google you will be amazed at the implications of this approach. What I find so ingenious is how Amazon has tapped into the impulsive-buyer market. You see a best-seller you're thinking of reading and 'bang' there it is in a minute to read!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 6:37pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Online | .
I've recommended various approaches to self-publishing for a couple of fledgling creative clients Dave and have included Kindle as a distinct possibility.
E-books.com is a more established, publisher-driven web outlet that can then serve as another stepping stone to the paper & ink world.
The latter is still where the big bucks are - especially if you write a best-seller that translates into a major screenplay. However, given that writers can now reach a decent sized audience sans all the printing / packaging and physical distribution costs, they can earn a good income from relatively modest online sales.
Marketing is still important no matter the media and that is something publishers are very effective at doing. But some are already promoting e-books online and I think more of them will be doing just that in the future.
So literary agents, editors, and publishers / marketers will continue to serve important functions in the future. But they may not be quite as important as they have been in the past.
Cheers, Terry
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 6:45pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (17 OCT 2008 5:45pm)
BTW: The Kindle is not a flash-in-the-pan. This is the real deal! Amazon is a veritable powerhouse in the book-selling area (and increasingly in all other areas). They are totally committed to the Kindle & if you go onto Amazon and research it a bit there and/or with Google you will be amazed at the implications of this approach. What I find so ingenious is how Amazon has tapped into the impulsive-buyer market. You see a best-seller you're thinking of reading and 'bang' there it is in a minute to read!
I have a Sony Reader. It's great.
Can't get the Kindle in the UK yet, but it a hideous looking device so hopefully they will redesign it before it gets a UK release.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 17 OCT 2008 at 6:53pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | What I like about the Kindle concept is that there is no intermediary determining what can be published. I don't mean that to indicate that some of the traditional acceptance by publishers isn't still the way one will have to go in the end- simply, that it may be an easy way to get your hands wet.
What you have to do is come up with a good title and some good cover art. Something like: Fornication In The Flower Garden or Human Fission, Fusion and Fantasy- Your Life As A Nuclear Reaction.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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