Originally Posted By Rael (22 FEB 2003 2:08am)
From my completely elitist POV (

), you can't let most people "do what they want". No, I'm not talking here of an Orwellian control-system

but we can certainly agree on something: healthier is good for anyone. So you must take action to avoid people becoming sick simply because they can't measure the consequences. Just think of this: if everyone's healthier, the world works better!

OK, how about this - make drugs free and more people will want to try them, not because they're no longer forbidden, but because they're just there for you to buy.

Think of cigarettes, you can buy them in every shop.

What if people just "tries" drugs and becomes addicted? I can tell you, that would be a bigger problem.

Originally Posted By Rael (22 FEB 2003 2:49am)
No no, that wasn't what I meant. Not controlling people to that extent - you can't take freedom from people but you simply can't allow them to do what they want.

Not so sure about that. What about kids that try joints at school? I'd say a high percentage of them turns into addicts. But, like you say, some research needs to be done.

Originally Posted By MichalN (22 FEB 2003 2:58am)

You are. Either you let people do what they want or you have to control them somehow in order to make them do only what you want.

Sorry, that's nonsense. People are not buying things just because they can.

Exactly. And yet not nearly everyone is smoking.

See Malia's response... getting addicted to most drugs isn't that easy.

Because some people can get addicted you want to prevent everyone from having a bit of fun... not fair if you ask me.

Originally Posted By Rael (22 FEB 2003 2:49am)

No no, that wasn't what I meant. Not controlling people to that extent - you can't take freedom from people but you simply can't allow them to do what they want. That would be an anarchy.

Not so sure about that. What about kids that try joints at school? I'd say a high percentage of them turns into addicts. But, like you say, some research needs to be done.

Originally Posted By Rael (22 FEB 2003 3:08am)
That's two very extreme positions. OK, let's not control people at all. I'm feeling like killing someone - be back in a few minutes.

Suppose you enter a farmacy to buy some rubbers and they're selling Marijuana. You tell to yourself "what the heck, let's try it!" and buy some. That's what I mean.

And think of this - if you make drugs legal, there would be brands. Companies comercializing drugs. If people can be controlled so easily by media, I don't see why a couple of ads wouldn't make people want to try some.

I don't need numbers on this one - a high percentage of people (in my country) are smokers and they smoke everywhere.

Originally Posted By MichalN (22 FEB 2003 3:16am)
I didn't know marijuana went well with rubber

Honestly, I don't follow that reasoning. Why should I do that? I'm sure they have tons of other things on display that I won't buy just because I'm there.

And then they'll get addicted and file massive lawsuits against the vendors. So what?

Cigarettes are legal here (US) too and not many people smoke. And certainly not everywhere.

Originally Posted By Rael (22 FEB 2003 3:35am)
That, a Margarita and you're done!

Because it's marijuana! It's tempting, that's why.

Lots of people getting sick. I know your position - "they can do what they want" - but that's just "not right". People are too stupid and silly and you can't just let them getting sick that way.

Originally Posted By Randdom (22 FEB 2003 6:56am)
Just want to say I'm not for legalisation, but definitly not against drugs and alcool (how can you be against alcool?!....why?).

Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (22 FEB 2003 11:56am)
It is a well-known fact that the road to heavy drugs always begins with light drugs. You don't start with heroine or LSD, you begin with dope.

Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (22 FEB 2003 11:56am)
Wow! One day and three pages of posts already. This is fun!

MichalN, you're claiming that people who wants to ban drugs are practically communists.

What kind of freedom is it to add an addiction to your life?

But some people's lives gets screwed up because they went on to take a second, a third, a fourth...

Legalize drugs, and you get the same problems you had before, only you lose control over it.

I can't believe you think that more people are using drugs when they are illegal than when they are illegal. Do you seriously think that it would reduce marijuana use if you legalized it and put it in the store shelves next to the regular cigarettes.

You were talking about numbers. Well, you give me the numbers to prove that removing drug laws reduces drug use if you can!

I don't think that laws alone are a good way of stopping bad things. What we really need is a strong opinion in society that drugs shouldn't be used.

It is a well-known fact that the road to heavy drugs always begins with light drugs. You don't start with heroine or LSD, you begin with dope.

And once again, outlawing stuff because it's bad for you has nothing to do with communism.

Totally free will only works when people are responsible, and people are not that good at being responsible when it comes down to it.

Besides, laws cannot prevent me from using drugs anyway, but they give me a good reason to think things over.

Originally Posted By MichalN (22 FEB 2003 2:50pm)

[...1...]
Who are you to tell me that I may not get addicted? That is a serious question. What gives you the right to do that?
[...2...]
I'm mostly a pragmatic person. I can plainly see that making drugs illegal absolutely doesn't have the desired effect. English has a nice idiom for it - "pissing against the wind". I see it as a pointless exercise.
[...3...]
This is assuming that drugs are very harmful and that people can be convinced to not use them. I'm not so sure of the former and I think the latter is a pipe dream. Did you know that even some animals like to get intoxicated by eating certain berries etc? Humans have used drugs probably forever. It is well known that activities such as beer brewing go back thousands of years.
[...4...]
So you're suggesting that everything that people can get addicted to should be outlawed. Is that right? Drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, coffee... Everquest and MUDs... Heroes of Might & Magic... hey, even e-mail and the Internet can be addictive. I think banning it is the only way to get rid of that addiction!
[...5...]
So you are claiming that it is better to have a law that will not be obeyed than not have it at all?

Originally Posted By MichalN (22 FEB 2003 2:50pm)
I never said that. But now that you mention it, some parallels could indeed be drawn. The communist state always knew best what was good for the people. And many (if not most) communist party members genuinely believed that communism was good. Of course that did not make it good.

Who are you to tell me that I may not get addicted? That is a serious question. What gives you the right to do that?

What makes you think that they won't find some other way to screw up their lives?

Uhh, excuse me? Lose what control?

I'm mostly a pragmatic person. I can plainly see that making drugs illegal absolutely doesn't have the desired effect. English has a nice idiom for it - "pissing against the wind". I see it as a pointless exercise.

No, I don't think it'd reduce it. I also don't think it'd increase it.

This is assuming that drugs are very harmful and that people can be convinced to not use them. I'm not so sure of the former and I think the latter is a pipe dream. Did you know that even some animals like to get intoxicated by eating certain berries etc? Humans have used drugs probably forever. It is well known that activities such as beer brewing go back thousands of years.

I would really love to know what makes you think that saying "it's bad for you" can stop that.

So you're suggesting that everything that people can get addicted to should be outlawed. Is that right?

Yes it does. Outlawing stuff because it's bad for others is fine. Outlawing stuff because it's bad for you is not. You are taking from people the ability to decide what's good for them.

So you are claiming that it is better to have a law that will not be obeyed than not have it at all?

Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (22 FEB 2003 3:12pm)
1. I (I put myself in the shoes of the state) am the person that you and your fellow citizens elected to take care of you and your country

2. Why do you think it does not have the desired effect?

3. Whether drugs are harmful or not... I think there is no point even discussing that. Cigarettes, alcohol (when drinking way too much) and drugs are fucking your health up in the long run, and this has been proven by scientists all over the world. If in your world this is not a reality then apparently our communication will become really difficult.

In ancient times you would probably have no right to vote and you might even be a slave right now.

Fortunately for you, for me and for everybody else there is a thing called evolution and getting rid of addictions that harm your health is a part of it.

4. Heroes of might and magic and the internet does not fuck up your health the way drugs do. I have never seen anybody's life getting shit because of might and magic or of the internet. Therefore the example is irrelevant.

5. There is no law anywhere in the world that it is obeyed 100%. Should we take down the law?

Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (22 FEB 2003 4:41pm)
You should be more careful about drawing lines between an opinion about laws and a political philosophy....In fact, the two things have nothing to do with each other.

I think Americans in general have a very poor perspecive of different political ideologies.

It's not I who should tell you that. It's everyone around you. The laws should represent the opinions of the majority of the population.

Screwing up your life is easy. Just go and rob a bank! People generally don't want to screw up their lives though, but drugs are dangerous because they may cause you to screw up your life without you ever seeing it coming.

Laws are useless without people that are there to enforce them. I wasn't promoting laws that no one would enforce.

Why not? Without laws, they would be more available, and definately cheaper. That would increase consumption!

If you're claiming that everyone uses drugs just because they are illegal, what will people start using when "light drugs" like marijuana and crack are legal?

Does that make it wrong to teach people how to eat right?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that laws alone will stop people from using drugs. It's just a part of the solution. The most important part is to teach children to stay away from it alltogether, and to behave responsibly.

I don't think you believe what you wrote here yourself. Of course not. Addiction is one thing, and that doesn't hurt you itself. The problem with drugs is that they are poisonous combined with being addictive.

If people aren't happy with the current laws, they should vote for people that wants to change them. It's as simple as that!

Originally Posted By Rael (22 FEB 2003 6:00pm)
Just wanted to say I'm sorry for leaving the discussion like I did yesterday but I was really tired.

Besides, I should be studying Physics. Hhmmm nice... pendulums, sound waves, optics... lovely.

Originally Posted By MichalN (22 FEB 2003 5:53pm)
Oh yes they do. You are assuming that communism was evil and bad from the start and that the majority of the population was against it from the get-go. That is not true. In most countries, communism was supported by the majority of the population, at least initially. In the ex-communist countries, you will still find people convinced that communism was genuinely good.

Are they? So WHY are so many people ignoring them? Why are so many people smoking pot? Why are so many people swapping songs? It's illegal isn't it?

I doubt that. You are again presuming that everyone is stupid, weak-willed and needs constant oversight.

How are anti-drug laws enforced? Hint: they really aren't. Unless you want to live in an Orwellian state, there is absolutely no way in Hell to enforce something like this.

There is no reason why drugs should be cheaper just because they're legal. In fact you can bet that the legal suppliers would want to keep the price high.

I don't know? What are they using now? What makes you think that just because someone smokes marijuana they will need something "stronger"?

No, but it makes it very unlikely that such teaching will succeed. You cannot erase millions of years of evolution. I'm not saying you shouldn't try, just that I'm extremely skeptical about the effectiveness.

I'm all for that. I'm just pointing out that by making drugs illegal, you lose any control over them.

No, it is not. Because you can never choose a politician who represents your interests perfectly. Now a referendum would be something different.