| 24 OCT 2002 at 6:34am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | [Part II - the forum software really doesn't like prolific writers]
Open sourcing game software is less of a problem than it may sound. Compared to most other software, games are unique in that it is not the game engine (program) itself that makes a good game, it is the artwork and story (data files). By giving up control over source code, the maker does not give up the revenue stream because players still need to buy the data files. And also while game data files may become "outdated", they will never "rot" and stop working like the game executables tend to.
I would see two possible strategies that companies could take:
1) Conservative. Do everything as usual but release the source when the game is "end of lifed". This way the company obviously isn't losing anything. By the time they release the source, it is obsolete. They could gain new sales to people who can play with fixed game engine (updated by 3rd parties) but couldn't play with the original for whatever reason. In the very least the company won't alienate existing customers by cutting off support for legitimately owned products. For some reason people don't like to be left hanging in the cold.
2) Aggressive. Release the source together with the game. If properly executed, this strategy might save support costs because some gamers could fix their problems easier/faster than the original developers (particularly unusual compatibility problems). 3rd parties could also port games to alternate operating environments (Mac, Linux, whatever). There is a potential loss if competitors take advantage of the source (I do not believe this risk is very high) and potential gain if the target audience is widened. And honestly, sometimes the game programmers could use a helping hand when they are, umm, "less competent" (I could name too many examples).
The source license need not be an Open Source license at all. It need not allow any use other than fixing and improving one particular game. Or it can be an aggressively Open Source license (GPL) which essentially precludes any commercial use of the code. And, as I mentioned earlier, even a less restrictive license might be OK since it's the data that makes the game, not the program code. Nobody is asking the companies to give up control over the content.
I'm not saying this would be easy. But the biggest problem would be changing the mindset and attitude, not technical issues. I have a first hand experience with open sourcing a formerly commercial C/C++ compiler. That is an order of a magnitude larger project than any game (about 10,000 source files, over a million lines of code) and it can be done. In some cases it might even happen that the original developers would be interested in maintaining the game. I believe it could work.
Please tell me if I'm way off base. I'd (obviously) especially like to hear the opinion of game developers. I'm sure the gamers would have nothing against this
I forgot my sig.
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 7:32am |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | You're right. This gamer has nothing at all against your proposed solution(s)
.gita
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| 25 OCT 2002 at 11:46pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | So... nobody bored enough to express an opinion yet?
C'mon, developers, is this really too stupid to bother? I don't mind you telling me so.
I forgot my sig.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 3:02pm |
mbc841Space Cadet
Posts : 194
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well, I'm about as amateur a developer as you can find - most of what you said was over my head. I follow you on the concept of a difference between the actual data files and the interface. Of course, what I think should have been done from the very beginning, is there should have been some sort of "standard" created for the interfaces - so that game developers concentrated on the game content, i.e. data files, and then used the interface as a means of just delivering the product, the way television programmers use televisions to deliver their content.
What happened was each game developer developed their own interface, and game engine, and so each new game had a newer interface and game engine. Although these newer developments were also made, I believe, in an attempt to keep up with the constantly changing OS's.
But my love of games, and my current development venture, is primarily in the area of Point-N-Click 1st Person slide-shows, so my knowledge of this is somehwhat limited. I tend to agree with your solution number 1 above though.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 3:19pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | This is a great idea. I'm fed up of buying games that don't run properly on my computer because they're so old. What are the companies afraid of that they won't let people make their games compatible again?
Now I only wish I was a developer so that this post would count.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 7:18pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I have a question about this virtual pc. I heard somewhere that it allows you to run an operating system through another operating system though I am not sure how the whole thing works.
For example, I have windows 2000 now. If I got virtual pc, do I have to have msdos diskettes to install msdos or does virtual pc has msdos already and all I have to do is run virtual pc and then I can just run my games through virtual pc's dos?
I would really like an answer because i have recently downloaded many abandonware games (great ones actually) and I can't play them on windows. I also have a lot of old sierra games that can't play in windows 2000 either, they require ms dos.
So could somebody enlighten me about virtual pc?
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 10:40pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By mbc841 (26 OCT 2002 3:02pm)
Of course, what I think should have been done from the very beginning, is there should have been some sort of "standard" created for the interfaces - so that game developers concentrated on the game content, i.e. data files, and then used the interface as a means of just delivering the product, the way television programmers use televisions to deliver their content.
I don't think that ever had a chance to work. It might work now but I seriously doubt that. I'll explain why.
What you suggest above actually did work to some extent within large companies (Sierra, LucasArts, Legend Entertainment). They reused their game engines extensively - if for no other reason then because it saved them a great deal of time and money.
But I don't think there was any chance for an industry-wide standard. Problem #1, developers wanted to have unique games. Like it or not, standards stifle creativity (but have other benefits). Problem #2, who would set such a standard? There wasn't (and still isn't) such a force. The competing companies would have had really hard time agreeing on just about anything. And any standards set by companies like Microsoft are (rightly) viewed with suspicion by everyone else. Problem #3, how would such standards keep up with the times? By having everything under their control, companies can react much faster to new developments in hardware and software.
I'm not saying such standards would be bad, just that I can't see that happening.
Although these newer developments were also made, I believe, in an attempt to keep up with the constantly changing OS's.
I'd say "changing technology" in general. It was driven by hardware much more than software. A 1995 PC just could do so much more than, say, a 1992 PC.
I forgot my sig.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 10:46pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (26 OCT 2002 7:17pm)
I have a question about this virtual pc. I heard somewhere that it allows you to run an operating system through another operating system though I am not sure how the whole thing works.
For example, I have windows 2000 now. If I got virtual pc, do I have to have msdos diskettes to install msdos or does virtual pc has msdos already and all I have to do is run virtual pc and then I can just run my games through virtual pc's dos?
This is not really on topic but I'll answer anyway. Virtual PC is exactly that, a virtual PC. It is identical in concept to emulators of C64, Amiga, SNES or whatever. I creates a virtual computer - but the programs that run inside the virtual computer can't tell (or not easily).
I'm not sure if VPC comes with DOS (maybe). If you have DOS floppies, you can create a virtual harddrive and install DOS on it as you would on a real machine, then install DOS games on that virtual PC.
My own solution to playing old games is usually either booting to real DOS (PC DOS 2000) or firing up my ol' 486. Nothing, and I mean nothing emulates an old PC better than a real old PC It's also way cheaper than Virtual PC, but not so convenient.
I forgot my sig.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 10:50pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Nellie (26 OCT 2002 3:19pm)
This is a great idea. I'm fed up of buying games that don't run properly on my computer because they're so old. What are the companies afraid of that they won't let people make their games compatible again?
I don't think they're afraid of anything, more likely they just don't care. There really isn't anything to lose - source code to a 5+ year old game is commercially completely worthless (but the same is not necessarily true of the game data). It's just that releasing the code takes a bit of effort.
I forgot my sig.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 10:55pm |
copycatSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 293
Joined: 24 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Sorry, this is not a developer's view, couldn't find it in me to take the appropriate studies, but here goes:
I don't have any problems with old games, being a heavy supporter of Windows95 OSR2, but new(er) ones...
If any, the software houses will probably want the 'conservative' option, can't see anyone taking the 'agressive' free-source road.
And, if that doesn't happen, you can always get a large HD and install multiple OS's (if you have them). On my next pc, I plan on installing Windows95, Windows XP and some Linux Distribution (probably SuSe but not sure yet). Have to make sure if the current hardware still supports Win95 though, otherwise I'll just have to keep this here pc.
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