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| 25 SEP 2008 at 9:40pm | |
JKingSchattenjger  Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline | I also played Mortal Kombat in my youth (I bought the DOS version and played frequently with my brother), and I played such violent offerings as Wolfenstein 3D, DOOM, Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, Double Dragon, etc, etc, etc. Though I would sometimes become irritable when playing competitively against my brother and getting trounced, otherwise playing such games largely served as, as you say, a release of energy and pent-up aggression. I did, however, play many other kinds of games either nominally violent (eg. a space-combat simulator) or entirely non-violent (eg. most adventure games). Thus, a indulged my violent tendencies in moderation and am no worse for it. Somehow I doubt that the people who perpetrate violent acts which are then blamed on violent games have much of a gaming pallet. They are consumed by one thing and take it too seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if the violence (and the immersiveness of the environments wherein such violence can be acted out) in modern games is a contributing factor, but ultimately such people are unbalanced. Violence existed before interactive electronic entertainment, and so did assault, murder, rape and whatever else---and children have been exposed to violence since the dawn of time. If one wants to suggest that video games have made things worse, fine, but I posit that violent movies and even moreso violent television are far more ready candidates to lay a heap of blame on. I wonder how that battle would go... You can't kill someone in a studio. |
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| 25 SEP 2008 at 9:44pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Online | . I don't believe we have anywhere near enough factual evidence to reach a conclusion about the impact of violence in games on average children. However, as a society we already place strict limitations on the sale or distribution of other "adult" materials to younger kids. We also have a series of rating systems in place for a variety of entertainment products. What most states are missing is a law that holds retailers accountable for selling adult-rated games to minors without explicit parental permission. Oddly, the same states do have laws for enforcing restrictions on the sale of pornography and of course on the sale of drugs, alcohol, tobacco, firearms and other dangerous or potentially dangerous items. What we need is a better and more uniform system of accountability for parents, legal guardians, manufacturers and retailers. Problem is that telling people a thing "might" be harmful to their children or underaged customers and actually enforcing a law that bans the sale of those items to minors are two extremes. One is easy to pass into law and the other is a huge legal can of worms. Ultimately, we as a society will need to decide whether violent games are harmful to average kids or not. If not, no problem. If so, how far are we willing to go in terms of writing new criminal laws and strictly enforcing them at both the state and federal level? Cheers, Terry |
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| 26 SEP 2008 at 2:01am | |
CarolineJA+ Overseer  Posts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | I think we're all conditioned to accept the opinions of 'experts' far too easily and the nanny state mentality is getting out of control. Those of us who grew up playing cops & robbers and cowboys & indians can remember shooting their buddies dead with cap pistols, and dying noisily on the pavement when they shot us. It's a miracle so many of us turned out not to be murderers. I think society generally has become desensitised to violence. We have the road toll spoken of casually on the TV news with photos of fatal car crashes, we have real time footage from war zones making real bombs simply another form on edutainment and we have murder mysteries on TV every blessed night. We surround ourselves with crime and violence. I suspect that depression, drugs, mental instability and bad parenting are far more likely to create an unbalanced teen who rampages through his school than any amount of Doom or Mortal Kombat. No need to give up your bloodthirsty fun just yet Traveler..... wait till it's against the law to own such games. |
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| 26 SEP 2008 at 8:31am | |
| Deleted User | The thing is, I would fight very hard indeed against a law that totally banned any games, be it because of either pornographic or violent content. I believe that adults are quite capable of deciding for themselves whether they are comfortable with violence, pornography, or anything else that the Mother Grundies tend to rant and rave about. However, children who are still in their formative years, might not know how to contextualise things that adults know how to handle. Also, the way I was raised, I was taught and conditioned to rein in my violent tendencies, and not to express them in ways that are harmful to others. When my sister and I got into a catfight about a doll or piece of clothing, she grabbing my hair, and me wanting to punch her, we were immediately seperated and reprimanded for such behaviour. Not only do many games not censure violent behaviour, but they actually encourage and celebrate such behaviour. The important difference between Television, Films and the like, is that in videogames, the gamer actually gets to perpetrate the violent actions himself. Adults, who have been conditioned against expressing themselves violently, get a huge vicarious kick out of being in a world where they can freely act out their violent urges. I am not so sure if this is a good environment though, for unformed minds, who might not fully understand that such behaviour is undesirable in the real world. I feel that one should maybe start imposing caution on two fronts. Firstly, like Terry suggested, there should be stricter legislation regarding sales to underage children, and also more attention paid to informing parents/caregivers of content. Secondly, I feel that developers must start acting with responsibility. They should somehow build cues into the games, that would make it clear that certain actions that you undertake in the gameworld, are not ok and accepted in the real world. When your character is requested to decimate humanity with an atom bomb, and the protagonist responds with glee, the devs need to make clear that although this is a feasible reaction in the game, it is not a normal desirable one, by for instance clearly dubbing the character as a mad, bad killer, who if caught in real life, would be institutionalised; instead of, for instance glorifying such behaviour. Altough I myself hate being restricted and/or treated like a child, I recognise the need to aknowledge the issue of young children and the possible effect of playing videogames might have on them, and I think we gamers should be cognizant of this issue, and therefore more tolerant, towards restrictions that address this issue specifically. I also feel that such restrictions should specifically address issues regarding underage gamers, and they should not infringe on our freedom as responsible adult gamers. |
| 26 SEP 2008 at 7:33pm | |
loobilooPrivate Detective  Posts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | I agree with just about everything you have said Traveler except:Originally Posted By TheTraveler (26 SEP 2008 8:31am) First & foremost the responsibility is that of the parent/guardian. I do feel that if it is a game where it is necessary to include these sort of cues then they should most definitely not be targeted towards a young age group anyway and it should ideally be filtered out by a censoring board. One of the other problems with games, apart from actually being able to 'take part' in violent acts, is that they can be immersed in for hours on end. The modern Western World has many social problems brought about by many different factors & I personally think that the blame on the playing of violent Video Games is out of context & is only going to cause problems in people with inherent tendencies that are going that way anyway. I grew up with 'violent cartoons' (which I didn't relate to real life) & slapstick comedy films where fights consisted of someone being bashed around the head with planks of wood, bricks, punches etc - the person was never badly hurt & always bounced back. In real life they would have been very badly injured if not dead - there was no warning on those & it was easy to think you could do that in real life - far more dangerous! |
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| 27 SEP 2008 at 12:13am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Bottom line is parents don't put the time and effort into parenting their children like parents used to do in the old days. Juvenile courts and schools likewise have all gone soft. Kids do still need boundaries and rules - not just 'guidelines'. So, because parents aren't doing that (for a variety of reasons) the State is going to have to pick up the slack. God help us all. |
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| 27 SEP 2008 at 10:38am | |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice Posts : 265 Joined: 16 MAR 2008 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Caroline (27 SEP 2008 12:13am) It's easy to blame parents but the world for kids IS a different place to when I was growing up 35 years ago. There is one very obvious difference... There was no 'drug culture' as such - you might have come across the odd kid with an older brother at university who smoked dope and brought a couple of joints to a party but its frightening how conversant 13-15 year olds are nowadays about the use and effects of 'eccies' (ecstasy) 'Ice' (Ketamine),'Charlie' (Cocaine), 'Skank' (Heroin) and other more obscure stuff. Drug and alcohol abuse are THE fundamental cause of 75 percent of all crime including violent crimes ,in the UK. Its just not that easy to keep your children away from that crap because they are far more exposed to it than my generation ever were. You ask most kids why they do drugs and they will either say its peer pressure 'cos all the cool kids do it' or boredom - ' there's nothing to do round here'. Playing violent video games in this context, is actually a good thing because it serves as a substitute 'high' for drug taking.. Sorry for rambling on, but I have been a total antidrug fascist ever since a lovely woman who I was close to lost her mind and eventually hung herself after being introduced to the delights of cannabis - yes 'just' smoking dope fucks with your brain, I've seen it happen so I don't care what any libertarian tells me what the beneficial effects are.. |
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| 27 SEP 2008 at 11:09am | |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Steve_V (27 SEP 2008 10:37am)Originally Posted By Caroline (27 SEP 2008 12:13am) Sorry to hear about your sad experience, Steve. I must admit, that if there was one group of people on this earth that I could kill without flinching an eyelid, it would be druglords. (They are the vampires of our modern world). At one of the places I used to work there used to be this sad-sack girl who used to hang around doing filing and just general menial tasks, and it used to irritate me that was was always depressed and had headaches. My attitude totally changed when I found out that she had been given her job in an attempt to dry her out from Heroin. She was so sad and headachy because these are part of the long-term withdrawal symptoms from the drug. Contempt changed to admiration, because she really wanted to stop, and was doing a valiant effort fighting against the urges. She was attending a support group, and I became one of her supporters, cheering her on. I left the firm to go and have a baby (as it was a ceasarian, I literally had my baby on my last day of work [smiley=laughing.gif]) As soon as I was able, I paid a visit to the firm to go and check on my ex-drug girl. I was very sad at the news that awaited me. At some point she just gave up trying to fight against the symptoms and went back to her drug hell-hole. She is probably also dead by now. I know of one or two happy stories, where people have managed to beat drugs, but most stories end up very sad indeed. |
| 27 SEP 2008 at 2:05pm | |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman  Posts : 1317 Joined: 15 JAN 2008 Location: GR Status : Offline | /me blocks, blocks, runs, blocks, runs and as a consequence his opponent is frozen and explodes in a thousand bloody pieces. Good luck having that work in real life . My schoolmates and I spilled enough blood in Mortal Kombat II to drown Eurasia in, and are no more twisted than is necessary to remain sane in a twisted society. On the other hand, I have watched a bunch of twelve-year-old boys play GTA San Andreas in a net cafe, and I didn't like the sight. I do believe that greater control over the type of games and material children have access to is necessary, and in the Internet Age that is next to impossible (ok, so the retailer won't sell GTA4 to 13-year-old Jimmy, so he just torrents it and makes copies for all his friends) without parental involvement...
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| 27 SEP 2008 at 5:02pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Online | . It really must be a coordinated, multi-pronged effort or else there will always be huge loopholes that kids will happily jump through. We as a society need to have EVERY link in the chain working together to educate, warn, control, supervise, and enforce. If parents fall down on the job, forget it. If retailers drop the ball, forget it. If publishers fail to cooperate, forget it. But before a concerted effort can even begin, we need to agree on the answer to a fundamental question - Are violent video games harmful to average kids or not? Right now all we have spotty, incomplete research and a lot of conflicting opinions. That just doesn't cut it as the foundation for common law. So unless we are willing to do the work and find the correct answer, we will not ever reach a consensus and without broad agreement, we have no legitimate basis for our core beliefs. In the end, laws based on unsupported beliefs aren't worth the paper they're written on. Cheers, Terry |
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| 27 SEP 2008 at 5:46pm | |
InlandAZGuild Master  Posts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Rejoice my fellow gamers - there is hope: Anti-videogame lawyer permanently disbarred What? |
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| 27 SEP 2008 at 6:52pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Online | . Yep Inland, I've been reading about the Florida court's disbarring of that lunatic Jack Thompson too. He is the personification of one extreme. Not sure who would be his liberal counterpart though. But it's probably some raving, maniacal anarchist freak that thinks exposure to unlimited ultra violence and graphic sex is just fine for impressionable young kids because, you know . . . it's all in the name of free speech. The answer of course lies somewhere in the moderate middle. Too bad those who are truly motivated to take decisive action on causes like this always seem to represent the polar extremes. Which reminds me again just how dangerous the apathy of our massive silent majority really is. Not entirely indifferent or unconcerned but simply too busy or too lazy to bother voicing their opinions in any meaningful way. Cheers, Terry |
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| 28 SEP 2008 at 11:53am | |
| Deleted User | The thing is, Terry, I don't think people realise what their kids are capable of getting up to on the internet these days. With my brother's recent visit, we went to visit my uncle, whom I don't see often, and who has two boys (my cousins, of course) aged 16 and 19. I chatted a bit with their mother, and it's quite clear to me that she doesn't know what her kids are getting up to most of the time. Ok, they're not little kids exactly, but Harry showed me some torrent sites where you can download literally every and anything your heart desires, totally free of charge. You understand what this would include, of course. We're not just talking violent games here, ready for the taking. If these sites are common knowledge amongst 15 and sixteen year olds, you can betcha younger, 9, 10, 11 year-old siblings will also be in on the fun. ...and I'm not talking soft porn here... I, for one will not allow my children onto the internet until they reach a certain age. Just to make it clear that I'm not one of those people who fanatically try to shield children from what the nude human body looks like, it's not nudity, or even, erm.. "normal" sexuality that I'm concerned about here, but I shudder at the idea of kids under 14 watching XXX rated porn.... |
| 28 SEP 2008 at 6:45pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Online | . That is why we need a coordinated, multi-pronged effort that includes every link in the chain Traveler. Parents need to know what's really going on and using scare tactics doesn't help. More complete research and straightfoward, fact-based education is what's called for, not panic-inducing rants from yoyos like Jack Thompson or grandstanding politicans who don't know the difference between an adventure game and a shooter. Developers, publishers and retailers also need to start living up to their responsibilities and stop targeting / selling to underaged kids without explicit parental permission. Regarding the problem of young children accessing other material that's readily available on the Internet like hard-core porn - a combination of increased parental knowledge, more direct involvement and proper supervision is the remedy. However, the government could do a better job of policing web porn and the latest proposal to create a special designation for all such sites is a good start. Requiring, by law, a better system of online age / identity verification would also be a big help. How to accomplish that effectively and efficiently is the obvious challenge. But we have solved much more complex problems in the past and this issue impacts a wide range of other sectors. Identity theft is a huge concern for all of us though, so we have all the motivation we need. Cheers, Terry |
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| 29 SEP 2008 at 4:57am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | All year 6 students in Australia have a pretty detailed sex education session held with their parents present. It's just the basics about procreation, contraception and covers pubety for boys and girls. All the question and answer sessions at home won't stop them discovering the joys of voyerism when the time comes but so far they only use the pc to play games on and they certainly aren't into porn magazines yet. I wonder if co-ed schools promote sexual behaviour at a younger age than a single sex education? Oh look Traveler - you managed to bring up sex as well as personal family nudity. Well done. I think you get the points for this thread. [smiley=clap.gif] |
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| 29 SEP 2008 at 9:59am | |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Caroline (29 SEP 2008 4:57am) [smiley=blush.gif] [smiley=blush.gif] [smiley=blush.gif] [smiley=blush.gif] [smiley=blush.gif] er... thank you Caroline..... I think? :-? I mentioned the nudity partly because it is something I believe in and because my father was totally and incredibly irritatingly paranoid about nudity. My point is that nudity in itself is not sex, and that I do not believe that we should shield children from the way that people actually look, as if our bodies are something bad and distasteful. At the same time, I do believe that we should shield them from graphic violence and pornography. |
| 29 SEP 2008 at 1:27pm | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | As it happens I agree with you about the nudity bit. My father would switch off the TV whenever anyone kissed on it. But I found I needed to cover up when my oldest boy was about 7 and started having a good look. :-[ And it wasn't long afterwards that I was banned from seeing them naked, getting dressed, etc. Boys can get surprisingly modest even with each other on sleep overs. |
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| 29 SEP 2008 at 7:01pm | |
CrisGerSchattenjger Posts : 2539 Joined: 28 APR 2007 Location: US Status : Offline | I suspect that depression, drugs, mental instability and bad parenting are far more likely to create an unbalanced teen who rampages through his school than any amount of Doom or Mortal Kombat. says it all. Violence is part of life and reality, but i tend to think reasonable and rational balance is much healthier than repression and not talking .... great thread! a great resource on this is here: http://www.justadventure.com/articles/ViolenceRatingsRegs/VRR_toc.shtm by Karla Munger Admin 3D Worlds and Game Developers http://3dworldandgamedevelopers.blogspot.com |
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| 8 DEC 2008 at 3:40am | |
DarleenIntergalactic Janitor  Posts : 54 Joined: 19 SEP 2007 Status : Online | Video games has nothing to do with a person....If your a nut to begin with.... GEEZZZZZZ ...STOP blaming metal problems with Magazines & Video games.... If your NUTS your just that "NUTS" ///*_*\\\ |
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| 8 DEC 2008 at 6:56am | |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Darleen (8 DEC 2008 3:40am) Darleen, we're not talking about adults here. We are talking about impressionable kids. And kids immediately copy what they see on-screen. My little boy wasn't even four yet, when I found him clambering and diving over furniture, and swinging from the curtains, shouting "me Piderman! me Piderman!" That is just the way kids learn, is by copying what they see; it's how human nature works. Children copy the adults and the older kids; and this seems to also apply to what they see onscreen. Even teenagers most often don't have the maturity yet to interpret everything they see and hear in context. That is why we need to be careful with who comes into contact with violence in videogames. Hey, I'm one of those that switches the gore on full, but in real life I used to be the local shelter for stray and hurt dogs, cats and birds. (Not anymore now I have kids, - but you get my point, hopefully.) Point is: I know I am old and sophisticated enough by now to know the difference. Kiddies probably also know the difference, but they have an inherent drive to copy behaviour that they see. |
| 8 DEC 2008 at 9:14am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | I agree with you here Traveler. Case in point: about 12 yrs ago two 10 yr old boys (Thompson & Venables) tortured and killed a 2 yr old in Bootle, UK. Turns out the father of one lad had given them an explicitly violent video to watch that week and they literally re-enacted the movie on this little boy. |
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| 8 DEC 2008 at 9:41am | |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Caroline (8 DEC 2008 9:14am) Yes, that was a very sad case, Caroline. Not only was an innocent little child killed in a most horrible way, but the two perpetrators are marked for life as horrific killers. IIRC the families involved had to go through the process of the Witness Relocation Program, to avoid persecution. Anyone who has children will know that kids copy what they witness onscreen though. I personally hate professional wrestling, but I've seen the children of people who do view it in their homes, pretend to being one of the wrestling "heroes" (about as far from a real hero as I can imagine [smiley=zombie.gif]). John Cena, and Ray Mysterio and "The Mask" are names I have heard from these little boys. Also, anybody with little boys will know all about Ben10 (and how expensive Ben10 toys are ), -but they "have" to have the toys so that they can enact Ben10 scenarios. : With little girls, its Barbie, My little Pony and the "Bratz". We all know that traditionally little boys used to play with toy soldiers and cowboy paraphenalia, and little girls with dolls and tea sets. Video games have become the toys of today, so... Yeah, yeah, I know - I used to play Mortal Kombat too. My own little boy also plays mildly violent video games. (Not quite at Mortal Kombat level yet - no explicit blood or gore). But I do know what he is playing, and I know he knows it is only an abstract game. The games themselves are stylised enough not to simulate reality completely. There are games, though, that I would not even let them watch while I am playing them... ...and that is the point we were making earlier on in the thread. Parents should be aware of the content and tone of games, and publishers should be informative enough about dubious content, so that the parent can make an informed decision as to whether he/she deems his/her child to be ready to handle certain content. |
| 8 DEC 2008 at 5:13pm | |
| Deleted User | Excellent points made Traveler. My Mom teaches fourth grade so I know all to well the detrimental effects these games have on their study habits and personal development. I'm pleased though, that right now my nine year old nephew is more interested in architectural design using a three dimensional design program from LEGO than in video games. |
| 8 DEC 2008 at 6:04pm | |
XerNosamSorcerer Apprentice Posts : 339 Joined: 3 SEP 2007 Location: US, California Status : Offline | I grew up watching the GI Joe/Transformers/He-Man cartoons of the 80's. My primary love was GI Joe though... my buddies and I would sit down, study, and take notes of each episode, then try to reenact them in my back yard. I had a tennis racket for a rifle, and my buddy used his cap gun. Mad "laser" fire was everywhere... we ducked and moved and hid and returned fire against "COBRA" (we both were on the same side shooting at imaginary foes). What took me some time to realize (in my 20's when I started pondering my childhood to some degree) was that nobody in the GI Joe cartoons ever got hit by one laser shot, or died. Pilots of shot down aircraft would parachute to safety EVERY time; grenades went off left and right, explosions everywhere, but would only render folks unconscious for a spell; hurt or injured troops would be cared for and taken to safety. And when my buddy and I played, no imaginary COBRA forces would die either. I think we could have upped the ante a bit and had some die, but I'm certain that because it wasn't what happened in the show, it didn't happen in our make believe battlefield. I was "shocked" (to put it lightly) when I picked up my first GI Joe comic book and saw COBRA and Joes getting shot and killed. I don't think there's really a point here but it's just me reflecting on pretty much the only "violence" I was exposed to in my childhood. The video games I played back then were Super Mario Brothers and Zelda... no real comparison to what's out now. It can be tough to find a balance with kids... each is different, and can/can't handle different things. Shield them too much and you're overprotective, shield them too little and you're neglectful... If anything, I'm just really in touch and involved with my kids. There's great communication and togetherness. Parenting is the toughest job in the world, IMHO, and sadly there are folks that just aren't fit to be (or simply don't know what to do). My boy plays Lego Star Wars on his Gamecube. He reenacts certain scenes with is real Legos, but when the bottom half of his Lego Stormtrooper flies off when hit by a laser blast by his Lego Han Solo, I don't fret... he laughs, I laugh, it's good fun. He's got a good heart and soul, and has compassion for all living things... heck, even inanimate objects. He feels bad for the plastic bags that fly around the freeway because they're "lost" and "could get hurt" Playing: Skyrim: Dragonborn/Dawnguard; Torchlight 2; To The Moon; Far Cry 3 Finished: HomeFront; Far Cry 3; Dishonored Always Playing: Half Life 2 Looking Forward To: BioShock: Infinite Reading: BioShock: Rapture; SW: Revan |
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