| 14 DEC 2008 at 5:35pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Steve_V (14 DEC 2008 11:01am)
I can't believe that the whole catnapping thing has become such a bone of contention, its really just a minor subplot in the whole story.
Huh? You've been going on through numerous posts about how the ending didn't sit well with you and despite numerous attempts by myself and others to bring you some form of closure with some very lengthy and well thought out posts, I mention the one part I wasn't satisfied with and you pretty much brush it off as something that we shouldn't even bother with talking about?
Spoiler AlertThe whole catnapper thing kept weaving it's way into the story for a huge percentage of the game and was tied directly to the main theme of the Lost Crown and the sinister Alger brothers. It was constantly there with missing cat posters, yet another cat goes missing, etc. It was nothing like going around picking berries and other ingredients for a meal - THAT was a minor subplot.
While I would hardly call it a major plot theme or a big deal, I wasn't minor either.
What I do find amusing is that while I found the capture of the culprit didn't sit well with me, for some reason this is being labeled as a cat-owner or cat lover thing is laughable. I don't see any posts criticizing the actual act of catnapping or what happened with them. As far as I'm concerned, it could have been someone stealing jewels, money, dogs, bicycles, or any other thing - it was how it all suddenly ended that didn't sit well.
It reminded me a lot of these Nancy Drew games where everyone could be guilty and then suddenly they grab someone and it is wrapped up with an explanation. They could have grabbed any characters in the game and given an explanation as to why it was them and it would have fit.
Spoiler AlertIn this case with TLC , if Nanny Noah was the one arrested, we would have said, "Ahh! of course. She hated cats and was overly curious about my progress." If it was the woman at the bar, we would have said, "Ahh!, of course. She was always acting suspicious and dodging my questions." As it turns out, Mr. Gruel was arrested and people are saying, "Ahh, of course. He was a nutjob and his initials were on a piece of paper."
Sure Jonathan posted about it on his site. Mr. Gruel it is. I can accept that. I just wasn't very happy with the way it all got resolved - just like Steve wasn't happy with the way it ended. I'm just glad I can easily dismiss this and walk away extremely satisfied with the game as a whole, while Steve bases his entire opinion of the 30+ hour game on the last few minutes because everything didn't get tied up nice and neatly to his satisfaction.
Did you ever think that maybe it wasn't satisfying because you were too quick to brush things off as being minor subplots and somehow missed how everything fit together?
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| 14 DEC 2008 at 5:56pm |
| Deleted User | Ok, Ivinia, I apologise what I said in my previous post, about the cat-lovers. I hadn't meant to brush it aside as if it wasn't important.
Spoiler AlertI do understand what you are saying about the whole plot not being interwoven enough. Perhaps Jonathan should have given the Gruel story and the Gruel character more depth to make the whole thing more believable than simply saying: "Yeah, Gruel hated the cats."
I also feel that the whole story with him being "posessed' or "obssessed" by the Agers, wasn't interwoven enough from the beginning. Although one did receive the constant poison letters, - in my game, I hardly ever interacted with Gruel. The only interaction we had, was with him hiding behind Jemima, and it was a single conversation, IIRC.
In that sense, the cat story is unsatisfying, as it closes with a character that one hardly knows. Even Hardacre is a better-known quantity, and would therefore have been a more satisfying catnapper.
As I had said before, to me the photographs in the net hut left me with a big question mark in the air as well.
Also, why did Gruel hate Nigel so much in particular? Why not also Hardacre, as Hardacre was also searching for the crown?
Admittedly, there was something that gave one a clue to the "Ager obsession", and that was the fact that Gruel had that Ager journal in his posession. But despite that, I agree that the plot still is too thin.
EDIT: Like you said in an earlier post, Ivinia, it would have been more satisfying if we as the player guessed who the culprit was.
Spoiler AlertThe best tool to achieve this, would have been to have left an obvious clue for the player in the net hut, that pointed at Gruel. You could then have called up the police, and given them the identity of the culprit, the same way that you called them and gave them the identity of the Saxton skeleton, by choosing from a list of names.
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| 15 DEC 2008 at 8:18pm |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Ivinia, I am not arguing that the catnapping 'theme' did not permeate most of the game, simply that in the end it was irellevant to the crux of the story.
Yes, I am whining about things not being wrapped up satisfactorily (to my mind) because Spoiler AlertI don't think Mr Boakes understood that how he envisaged the ending explains little or nothing about the main focus of the plot..Does Danvers end up in Saxton by chance or is the whole thing pre determined? Are his actions entirely manipulated by Hadden and if so, Why?
If Dark Fall 3 answers these questions then I will accept that TLC was designed specifically to leave them hanging in the air, to be resolved at a later time, rather than as an oversight on the part of the designer.
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| 15 DEC 2008 at 8:20pm |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (14 DEC 2008 11:16am)
Oops, Steve- as this is not the spoiler thread, what you said there should perhaps need some spoiler tags?
Spoiler AlertRegarding the Agers : They killed a lot of innocent people, and held their souls captive in limbo, which is a kind of torture in itself. They definitely did not just protect the Crown. How was killing the little girl and her brother protecting the crown? Or the congregation members who didn't want to join in the horrible song?
It was mainly Grindle and "the guardians" who was protecting the crown.
Perhaps the moggies thing was a big thing for cat-owners and cat lovers playing the game. [smiley=shrug.gif]
Spoiler AlertAnd 'The Guardians' were...?
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| 15 DEC 2008 at 8:28pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Steve_V (15 DEC 2008 8:20pm)
Originally Posted By TheTraveler (14 DEC 2008 11:16am)
Oops, Steve- as this is not the spoiler thread, what you said there should perhaps need some spoiler tags?
Spoiler AlertRegarding the Agers : They killed a lot of innocent people, and held their souls captive in limbo, which is a kind of torture in itself. They definitely did not just protect the Crown. How was killing the little girl and her brother protecting the crown? Or the congregation members who didn't want to join in the horrible song?
It was mainly Grindle and "the guardians" who was protecting the crown.
Perhaps the moggies thing was a big thing for cat-owners and cat lovers playing the game. [smiley=shrug.gif]
Spoiler AlertAnd 'The Guardians' were...?
Spoiler Alert * Sigh* Yes, I know one tends to think it was the Agers - I definitely thought so early on in the game, but seeing as you exorcised Nathaniel's ghost, and "defeated" the Agers, I started thinking that there were simply ancient guardians along with Grindle, seeing that it was the Guardians that killed Hardacre in the end. Oh, cripes - let me just go and load the game again, and read that book with the Grindle story again... :'(
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| 3 JAN 2009 at 8:43pm |
KurtSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 204
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Hi !
Just completed the game 8-)
It kept me interested all the way through.
TLC definaetely has it´s shortcomings but on the whole it´s been a satisfying gaming experience.
Would have been a VERY satisfying one if not for the lackluster ending.
It has it´s merits but come on Mr. Boakes ....
That´s it ?
I hope for an eye opening blog entry in the future ...
People shouldn´t expect that DARK FALL III is going to tie up LOST CROWN´s loose ends. It would be stupid ...
So now to the questions:
Could somebody tell me what happened to Spoiler Alert all the Ager brothers ?
OK ... we got rid of Thomas (rector of church, killed Gurney) & Nathaniel (built Organ in Ulcombe Church)
in Northfield/Ulcombe Church. But what about Frederick (built Net Store House aka Nightmare Room)
& William (last of the Agers, killed Emily) ?
Did Nigel destroy Frederick´s evil spirit in the Nightmare Room ?
Can´t remember, was too busy crappin my pants back then
And what about William Ager ?
This is just the beginning ...
Was du nicht willst, daß man dir tut,&&das fueg auch keinem andren zu !&&&& o not do to others, what you do not want done to yourself !
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| 4 JAN 2009 at 12:15am |
KurtSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 204
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Oh and here´s an old interview with Jonathan Boakes from the year 2004
http://www.gameboomers.com/interviews/DFLOJonathan%20interview.htm
Check out his answer to the penultimate Will there be a Dark Fall 3 ? question ...
It´s obvious that he was talking about what was to become THE LOST CROWN.
Was du nicht willst, daß man dir tut,&&das fueg auch keinem andren zu !&&&& o not do to others, what you do not want done to yourself !
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| 4 JAN 2009 at 12:35am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Kurt (3 JAN 2009 8:43pm)
Hi !
Just completed the game 8-)
It kept me interested all the way through.
TLC definaetely has it´s shortcomings but on the whole it´s been a satisfying gaming experience.
Would have been a VERY satisfying one if not for the lackluster ending.
It has it´s merits but come on Mr. Boakes ....
That´s it ?
I hope for an eye opening blog entry in the future ...
People shouldn´t expect that DARK FALL III is going to tie up LOST CROWN´s loose ends. It would be stupid ...
So now to the questions:
Could somebody tell me what happened to Spoiler Alert all the Ager brothers ?
OK ... we got rid of Thomas (rector of church, killed Gurney) & Nathaniel (built Organ in Ulcombe Church)
in Northfield/Ulcombe Church. But what about Frederick (built Net Store House aka Nightmare Room)
& William (last of the Agers, killed Emily) ?
Did Nigel destroy Frederick´s evil spirit in the Nightmare Room ?
Can´t remember, was too busy crappin my pants back then
And what about William Ager ?
This is just the beginning ...
I think it's pretty clear that Spoiler AlertNigel defeated Frederick in the Net Store house, because his (Frederick's) portrait in that picture of the brothers also cracked. I had just assumed by the end, that Nigel had defeated all the Agers, because he said something to that effect in his journal. He said something about seeing as he had defeated them, why does it feel as if they are still watching him. However, to be honest, now that I think about it, I don't remember any clear indication that he had defeated William. Maybe he did simply by giving Emily the Pasque flower, and thereby setting her free?
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| 4 JAN 2009 at 1:16am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (4 JAN 2009 12:35am)
Spoiler AlertHe said something about seeing as he had defeated them, why does it feel as if they are still watching him.
Spoiler AlertI took that to mean that he hadn't defeated them after all -- not permanently anyway.
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| 4 JAN 2009 at 12:09pm |
KurtSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 204
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (4 JAN 2009 12:35am)
I think it's pretty clear that Spoiler AlertNigel defeated Frederick in the Net Store house, because his (Frederick's) portrait in that picture of the brothers also cracked. I had just assumed by the end, that Nigel had defeated all the Agers, because he said something to that effect in his journal. He said something about seeing as he had defeated them, why does it feel as if they are still watching him. However, to be honest, now that I think about it, I don't remember any clear indication that he had defeated William. Maybe he did simply by giving Emily the Pasque flower, and thereby setting her free?
This makes sense although
Spoiler AlertI don´t recall a certain action by Danvers which could serve as final stroke against Frederick.
I think he and Lucy just investigated the crime scene.
Concerning William:
Emily´s salvation could have been the trigger, but isn´t a very satisfying solution.
Though it IS the last event in the course of the game which has to do with William´s story.
Oh, and William is the one of the brothers who is "present" in the museum ?
Isn´t he the one Verity is talking about ?
[quote author=Jenny100 link=1220129060/75#84 date=1231031732Spoiler Alert Spoiler AlertI took that to mean that he hadn't defeated them after all -- not permanently anyway.
I concur ...
Was du nicht willst, daß man dir tut,&&das fueg auch keinem andren zu !&&&& o not do to others, what you do not want done to yourself !
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| 4 JAN 2009 at 2:30pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Kurt (4 JAN 2009 12:09pm)
This makes sense although
Spoiler AlertI don´t recall a certain action by Danvers which could serve as final stroke against Frederick.
I think he and Lucy just investigated the crime scene..
Spoiler AlertWhen that swarm of flies came out, it was as if was mesmerising Nigel and driving him mad - I took the fact that he had overcome the flies, and had also overcome the black mist, that he had overcome Frederick
Concerning William:
Spoiler AlertEmily´s salvation could have been the trigger, but isn´t a very satisfying solution . Why not? :
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| 4 JAN 2009 at 2:32pm |
KurtSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 204
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online |
Why not? :
Because it brings closure to Emily´s story, not William´s IMO
Was du nicht willst, daß man dir tut,&&das fueg auch keinem andren zu !&&&& o not do to others, what you do not want done to yourself !
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| 4 JAN 2009 at 5:29pm |
KurtSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 204
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Another question (not storywise)
I was able to collect all the EVP´s in the game
but I think I missed to take one picture ...
I still had one spot left on the last page of the album (the one in the upper right corner)
Is it supposed to stay empty or did I miss a shot ?
Was du nicht willst, daß man dir tut,&&das fueg auch keinem andren zu !&&&& o not do to others, what you do not want done to yourself !
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| 15 JAN 2009 at 1:59am |
Murphy2042Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 59
Joined: 16 AUG 2008
Status : Online | Wow, still around 2 months until The Lost Crown will be released in Germany. :'(
Can´t wait to get my hands on the game, i guess the next time in such a situation´ll just order it from the US directly instead of waiting for so long. But however, soon the waiting will be over.
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| 16 JAN 2009 at 12:49am |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | I finished the game recently and read through this thread, plus the ones at AG and GB. This game sure sparks a lot of discussion.
Here’s my take on it. I'm in with the computer generated camp.
Spoiler Alert
Hadden Industries found a way to access the spiritual world using computer generated virtual worlds. Then one of 2 possibilities – they send someone in as an experiment to see what happens, or they know about the Lost Crown, and want to find it for themselves.
I believe that Nigel, Lucy, Alex and possibly a few others (Morgan, Professor Oogle and Rys) are contempory people. Nigel and Lucy work for Hadden and are friends (hence the pictures of them) . Nigel is sent into the virtual computer world of Saxton as an avatar, and is given a new life history (1978, stole documents, being persued). Saxton is virtual world based on information that Hadden gets from Hardacre. Prior to Nigel going into Saxton, they sent in Hardacre as the first experiment. I think he dies in the process. That’s why he appears in the game as both an avatar and a spirit.
Saxton is populated by both spirits and avatars of people made up by Hadden, possible based on people they used to get information to create Saxton in the first place. The non-spirit avatars – Alex, Morgan, etc.- have preprogrammed behavior. Only Nigel ( and Lucy to some extent on an off and on basis) is able to change events, and act independently
While Nigel is in Saxton, he communes with the spirit world. He also develops the desire to find the Lost Crown for himself. While interacting with the spirits, he is able to help a few, thus sending them to rest. Some he cannot help – Rose and Bob’s grief over their lost son, Gruel’s dementia from losing Jemima. He also encounters evil spirits, the Agers. As he exposes their crimes, their evil influence disappears. When he actually has the Lost Crown in his possession, he has a dream of what happened to Hardacre when he had the Lost Crown. That dream becomes a virtual reality the next day. Because of the attitude of the inhabitants and his belief that the power of the Crown protects Saxton (perhaps even being the power source that allows he spirits to roam), he has second thoughts. Hadden then wants to pull him back using Lucy. Perhaps they want Nigel to bring out the Crown, or they feel Nigel’s life was in danger like Hardacre’s.
Nigel goes back to return the Crown, and is supported in his endeavor by Saxton’s residents. He is returned to the present successfully.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 16 JAN 2009 at 8:26pm |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Colpet,
The one thing that I don't get about that line of thought is
Spoiler AlertWhy isn't Hadden bothered when Danvers returns the Crown? If the main plot was supposed to be to get the Crown for him, then he should be irate when Nigel puts it back, instead he offers him a job. I think you are on the right track in that the whole game seems to be a test to see if Danvers is worthy of Hadden's time, but to what end is unclear..
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| 16 JAN 2009 at 8:41pm |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | Well, I thought it was either...
Spoiler Alert I thought there was 2 possibilities for the main plot. If Hadden not wanting the crown makes more sense, then the whole thing was an experiment with Nigel being sent into this virtual world to see what happens.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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