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| 15 AUG 2008 at 8:16pm | |
Lucien21Guild Master  Posts : 4876 Joined: 9 JUL 2003 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (15 AUG 2008 7:35pm) Reinforcing the same insipid mainstream-gamer stereotype that some adventure websites have been perpetuating for years now wasn't the answer. Tit for Tat never works. it only escalates into more tit. As for the stereotype....well it's a stereotype for a reason. It's partially true. We are living in the past or at least some of us are. Any company who tries something new is ignored or derided because it's download only or it's episodic, or it has an arcade seqence or a stealth section or it's 3D or whatever else detracts it from being the 1990's game we all remember and love. Once upon a time the adventure genre was on the forefront of modern computing, hearlding in graphics and the CD drive with new games and gaming styles. It got stuck in neutral somewhere around 1998 and has been spinning it's wheels ever since. This has happened more times than I care to recall over the past seven or eight years involving reviews that start out with a typical "If you like slow, boring games that look like they were made last century, you'll love (game title)." In many cases, things just get nastier and more ignorant from there and often, the actual details of the games being reviewed are barely covered at all. That's because the reviewer spends half of his word count babbling on about how horrific AG games are in general and how much cooler 3D action, action-adventure and other genres are. Probably because most of them have shown signs of innovation and advancement at some point. As much as I love them there really is no comparison to most modern games. Adventure games do look last century when compared to the likes of GTA4 or Metal Gear Solid. The thing is that the adventure games that do try something are usually fairly well reviewed. Broken Sword 3 and 4 did ok in mainstream sites, The Telltale games are always in the 70/80% range, Fahrenheit had rave reviews, Dreamfall did ok and Heavy Rain is currently gathering huge praise behind the scenes (hopefully it will be adventure like), but you can't expect a site devoted to modern games to give the likes of Nancy Drew a decent score. It just doesn't cut the mustard. That's not to say it's not a good game for fans of the genre, but in comparison to other games it is not going to garner 90% reviews. No, Randy's harshly worded response was not only 100% justifed, it was also necessary - that is if you agree the offensive remarks needed to be deleted from that article and the offenders needed to be exposed as the "dumbasses" they really are. I have no problem with a harshly worded response, but petty insults were not required. In this case, a polite and dignified response would have yielded no action. Calling the offenders out in no uncertain terms and calling the higher-ups attention to their ignorant insults got immediate action. Pushing the complaint up the authorisation tree would have sorted the problem not the article itself. I deal with complaints on occassion with unhappy suppliers and I will be more likely to help out people who are angry but respectful than someone hurling abuse (who will get cut off every time).Asking to speak to a supervisor or writing a strong but polite letter to the chairman of a company will get more results than threatening hate mail. Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount. |
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 8:42pm | |
IviniaGuild Master Posts : 4459 Joined: 7 JUN 2003 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (15 AUG 2008 6:38pm) ...and Ivinia is an FPS junkie as well, followed closely by RTS games. I love RPGs but try to avoid them knowing full well I'll loose a large chunk of my life playing them.
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 9:00pm | |
JKingSchattenjger  Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 AUG 2008 8:16pm) Oh, surely you jest, Lucien! I for one do not live in the past! I am perfectly aware that it is the Year of Our Lord Nineteen Hundred and Ninty-Five and that the latest and greatest adventure game is, of course, The Dig. Everyone knows that, surely? In my case, though, I live in the past with all genres. I'm just an old fart in a relatively young body, I guess. :-/ You can't kill someone in a studio. |
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 9:08pm | |
| Deleted User | I am not discussing the pros & cons of this very interesting and possibly important controversy... at least, not at present. However, kudos to JA+ for allowing members to criticize the (veteran) owner, whether justified or not, without being ostracized by the members, let alone banned! Also for the Mods for allowing a (polite, dignified, logical) debate on the subject without locking it or deleting posts! This is not the case with every Adventure Forum. In fact there is one where even the slightest diplomatic disagreement or correction of an error can lead to dire consequences! ~~~ In the Army they used to say "No names, no pack drill" !! |
| 15 AUG 2008 at 9:15pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . Lucien, it doesn't matter why so many PC AG fans prefer slow, relatively static gameplay or why they shun timed / action sequences or why they don't want games with high system requirements or why they like difficult puzzles that many people find daunting. The basic nature of the genre (mostly) appeals to people that like those things and don't like ANY of the elements you listed as advancements or benefits in 3D games from other genres. It's simply not what the majority of them like and it's not what they want. So who cares what sells in today's highly expanded, hyper commercialized mass market? Those games and many of the specific things that make them so popular are exactly what the majority of PC AG fans dislike. Now having said that and as you know, in addition to classic-style PC adventures, I also play a lot of games from several other diverse genres and I love innovative, cross-genre 3D hybrids. But that's just me and if I didn't happen to like classic-style, point & click (non-action) PC AGs, as a professional writer I would NEVER submit an insulting review of a game just because it was a classic-style adventure instead of a cutting-edge shooter, RPG, RTS or sim. And as a professional editor, I would NEVER approve such biased garbage in the first place - let alone a piece that included a libelous slur like the one GamesRadar posted. What I see here is a few people trying to justify or at the very least, minimalize the severity of the original offense while shifting blame to Randy who as we know, first tried to contact the editors / writers at GamesRadar privately to lodge his complaint. Well, that got NO RESPONSE, NO ACTION, NOTHING AT ALL. So Randy decided to lodge a forceful complaint with the company that owns GamesRadar and post a harshly worded response here at JA. BOTH were necessary actions on his part. The first got the offensive comments removed from the article immediately and the second assured that this offiense was not simply swept quietly under the rug. He brought it to our attention in a very bold way and I'm glad he did because I have personally been insulted and/or ignored many times by the staff members of sites like GamesRadar for complaining about similar crap. Again, Randy's response was 100% justified and 100% necessary in order to get some ATTENTION and some ACTION. Cheers, Terry P.S. Using the term "dumbasses" in the headline is what grabbed my attention. It was the perfect word to describe a couple of dumbasses. |
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 9:44pm | |
ShanyGuild Master Posts : 3313 Joined: 19 JUN 2003 Status : Online | So the issue here really isn't about mainstream sites against adventure games. It's JA against Gamerasar's offensive remark. Which is valid. The generalizations and name calling on the other hand, aren't. By the way, none of the 'anti-adventure' reviews that have been quoted or linked to here seemed ignorant of the genre to me. If I were to read those on an adventure website I wouldn't think they were biased. I'd love to see an example of what everyone's talking about. |
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 9:56pm | |
Lucien21Guild MasterPosts : 4876 Joined: 9 JUL 2003 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (15 AUG 2008 9:14pm) And that my friends summaries why the adventure genre will never be taken seriously and why some of the adventure community are stuck in the past sitting on a rocking chair talking about the good old days when adventures really were adventures and complaining about those damn young folk and their loud rock music. What I see here is a few people trying to justify or at the very least, minimalize the severity of the original offense while shifting blame to Randy who as we know, first tried to contact the editors / writers at GamesRadar privately to lodge his complaint. Well, that got NO RESPONSE, NO ACTION, NOTHING AT ALL. I'm certainly not justifying the original posting (Can't say anyone else has either) neither am I blaming Randy for responding. I am saying that the reponse didn't need to resort to juvenile inults. So Randy decided to lodge a forceful complaint with the company that owns GamesRadar and post a harshly worded response here at JA. BOTH were necessary actions on his part. The first got the offensive comments removed from the article immediately and the second assured that this offiense was not simply swept quietly under the rug. He brought it to our attention in a very bold way and I'm glad he did because I have personally been insulted and/or ignored many times by the staff members of sites like GamesRadar for complaining about similar crap. Again, the insult were not necessary. so we will agree to disagree. Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount. |
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 10:13pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . Originally Posted By Shany (15 AUG 2008 9:44pm) Well Shany, I for one can't steer you to a collection of prime examples. That's because I don't make a habit of keeping notes about or bookmarking biased, ignorant game reviews. I have read many of them though and occassionally one is so insulting that I feel compelled to lodge a written complaint with the editor. The point here is that never once has one of my very civil, respectful complaints gotten any kind of reply other than a short, dismissive one or no reply at all. In my case, I just dropped the matter but then again, the reviews didn't single me or my organization out and none of them included such an unbelieveably rude and libelous comment like the one GamesRadar made. In this case however, they did single out Randy's organization and they did include that dumbass slur. After his complaint went competely ignored by GamesRadar, Randy then posted an admittedly angry response and yes, he did take a few quotes out of context. But I really don't care about that. He got the owner's attention, he got our attention, and most important of all, he got some ACTION. You know what else Randy did? He vented his fully justified anger and for that, he owes nobody an apology. Cheers, Terry |
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 11:05pm | |
TechnoSpikePrivate Detective Posts : 581 Joined: 26 APR 2005 Location: PT Status : Offline | Just my humble 2 cents on all of this... I'm not following currently released games these past few months adventure or otherwise. My gaming time has been lately extremely reduced. When I had more time, I use to go for very different genres, RTS, squad base, FPS, action games, adventure, tycoons, RPGs. I usually don't give a rats ass about most of the reviews I sometimes read, and generally I only read them to try to find more about the game, what it is supposed to be about, what can I do on it, screen shots, etc. My opinion about the whole adventure games live in the past stereotype, twitch-jockeys, 3D or not 3D, better graphics, etc, etc, is basically this: I don't expect to watch a comparison of GTA (that has an investment of what, gazillion dollars?) and some other kind of game like Nancy Drew or whatever (games with very lower budgets for the matter). If I do see something like this, then, the whole thing just looses credibility to me and I post it on my ranting bin. For me, a review of a game must tell me what a game is made of, it's ups, it's downs and it must assume I might (or not) know anything about the so called "genre" it belongs to. Now, regarding the whole discussion about Randy's post , in my opinion, he did what he thought was right. Some might say that he lost his cool (so to speak), that he shouldn't have "flamed" like that (I wonder if he wrote that in the heat of the moment - I had a teacher with the theory that you shouldn't email/post when you are angry with something, you should wait, think and then post; it was a nice theory but one day he broke it ). I say, when people make such a blatant and cowardly attack based on innuendos, hell, they should be prepared to face the consequences and explain those innuendos when confronted ... if not, the least thing they should do, was to apologize. From what I read, none of that happened, they only took the post out when they where on the brick of facing legal consequences, which, for me, says a lot about what kind of people they are. If he vented too much, then, let the one how hasn't vented before when ticked throw the first stone, so to speak. My apologies for my rant, and for any grammatical errors, English isn't my first language, and the teachings I've received seem to be somewhat buried in my clouded memory. Cheers, TechnoSpike |
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| 15 AUG 2008 at 11:18pm | |
CarolineJA+ Overseer  Posts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | I've been following this argumentative thread with interest and find I agree with just about everyone. :-* 1. The Gamesradar comment about men and little girls and JA was a very unprofessional slur that they needed to be pulled up for. 2. Randy took as much action as needed to get the result he wanted. What we think about his method is largely a matter of personal preference. Fact is, he got mad, got the result he wanted and got his anger off his chest. He is who he is and I think it's a bit rude for us to be judging him from the comfortable distance of another country, another culture. 3. There is a whole generation of young adults who've grown up with the fast and wonderful graphics of the console games. No wonder they find AGs slow and dull. However Nancy Drew games are too slow and dull for me - so I'm not surprised that a non-AG player would find them intolerable, even laughable. Their style of 'review' however displayed their own bias and ignorance and was most ill-written and well.... they really could do with a few hints about professionalism and good manners. But as one of the first rules of professional writing is to know your audience, it could be argued that Gamesradar wasn't writing for anyone other than their own crowd. Beats me why they reviewed a ND game.... :-? 4. Totally pointless rehashing the old argument of AGs vs other genres. People in book shops don't go up and abuse other clients for their choice of book do they? I think it's just a matter of manners and respect. Young people today have none. [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif] |
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| 16 AUG 2008 at 7:24am | |
| Deleted User | Technospike and Terry and Caroline (amongst others) pointed out a salient aspect of this whole issue: This whole thing became so personal as to evoke an emotional response. Certain rude remarks were made by the GamesRadar crowd, against specific people. Those specific people are the members of JA - that is to say: "us". If I felt indignant and insulted, how much more, should Randy, as the Owner of the site have felt? He is a human - not some robotic example of the perfect theoretical human out of some textbook on good manners, you know. As previous posters have said, it is good form to remain restrained and polite where possible; however, -as others also pointed out, sometimes there comes a time to cut the bull and cut to the chase. I don't really care what specific words Randy used, but I'm glad that he did not take the insults lying down, and that he did something about it. If he stooped to using some insults himself, good! Why should he politely slink away like a mongrel with its tail between its legs? If there ever was a time to "break the rule" surely this was it. |
| 16 AUG 2008 at 11:17am | |
onemanandhisdroidIntergalactic Janitor Posts : 16 Joined: 13 AUG 2008 Status : Online | Originally Posted By LenG (15 AUG 2008 9:07pm) True, that. But then what was intended to be a critique of the the article in question was hardly meant as a personal attack. And there's really no reason for anything like that. We're all grown-ups. An article's an article. That's it. Originally Posted By loobiloo (15 AUG 2008 8:06pm) Those reviews are brief, and boldly worded, but still contain plenty info on many things. Ho-hum voice acting isn't something that needs to be terribly elaborated on, for instance. And as a consumer who just likes to know if something's worth my time I don't need any constructive comments - the game is as it is, and I'm asked to pay for what's there. As for developers, another story. By the way, as an European I'm sometimes shocked when I get to hear the English versions of some games that make it abroad. Not that it happens the other way around as well, (Half Life 2 in German sounds total amateur) but with dialogue heavy adventure games that aren't developed in English speaking territories these days pretty frequently, it's sad that some publishers either haven't got the budget to do a proper translation and get some solid voice actors, or else. Interestingly, seeing that at least one of these reviews was written by someone who posted pretty insightful posts on another adventure board some time ago, I'd make the guess that guy does know a great deal more about adventure games than many self proclaimed hardcore adventure gamers do. Originally Posted By Shany (15 AUG 2008 9:44pm) There's not a real need for it to be there, even. Nancy Drew: The White Wolf of Icicle Creek If there's a jab at anything categorically in here, it's "niche titles that never graduated past the 1990s", perhaps. And niche sites reviewing niche games. To take that as an attack on the wide world of adventure gaming in particular, you have to reach pretty far. There is, however, one really immature statement about the quality of games marketed towards girls. Probably a case for JustGirls+ to step into action. Originally Posted By Shany (15 AUG 2008 9:44pm) Here might be one: http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/660/Broken_Sword.html At the very least though, as the piece of opinion it is, it likes to share some rather unusual views that not many would agree with, I'd imagine. |
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| 16 AUG 2008 at 1:16pm | |
| Deleted User | Who’s to Blame: Just Adventure for giving a game marketed toward young girls a passing grade So... the "passing grades" should be given to games marketed toward young boys but not toward young girls? If I ever heard a sexist statement in my life, that is probably one of the worst. |
| 16 AUG 2008 at 4:19pm | |
KarstenSorcerer Apprentice  Posts : 347 Joined: 23 SEP 2006 Location: DK Status : Offline | Many people don't like adventure games; they find them slow, boring and not near pretty enough. That's OK. That doesn't give them (or anyone) the right to critizise the genre - every time they review an adventure game. It is also OK that Matt Peckham (the guy from 1 UP, I think don't like D& games. However, it is not ok that he dismiesses an entire game (NWN2) based on the fact? that he doesn't like to micro-manage his team. Fortunately, there are still some of uss that do like this as well as like to play adventure/puzzle games. As for Randy's reaction, I do think he had to take action. Someone from gamesradar directly and personally attacked a member of this site - justadventure.com - the person who have written the review for one of the Nancy Drew games. I have tried playing several of the ND demos, and I just concluded that this game is not for me, but it might be a game for someone else. I'm not that familiar with Nancy Drew of the books so it might have something to do with I would never in a review have written something about old men and their love for young girls (as I suspect was the wording used here). As I understand it sexual innuendo was also implied. [Sorry to be so direct, but this is my understanding of the now pulled sentence...]. To do this in a review, is quite unprofessional; it is also unprofessional to rant and rave about how great 3D sequences in action and shooter games are - when reviewing an adventure game. To me it is at least. That's because I expect a reviewer to tell me about the game, not his personal preferences when it comes to gaming. If he likes 3D action and shooter games; that's fine. Part of being a reviewer is also being able to set aside your personal preferences and to say 'hmm, I might nok like this game, but fans of the genre might do so'. And if you're critizising the game for not using 3D, then to give examples of how the game might improve using 3D. Or in the case with Sherlock Holmes: The awakened game, give examples on how 3D could be put to better use in the game - not just poiting the finger at every (new) adventure game out there - just because it doesn't have action sequences, 3D or both. |
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| 16 AUG 2008 at 4:51pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . Originally Posted By TheTraveler (16 AUG 2008 1:15pm) Not only sexist but patently untrue because several general gaming sites gave Nancy Drew: The White Wolf of Icicle Creek very respectable scores. Game Vortex scored it 8.0. GameZone rated it 8.0. Game Chronicles gave it a 7.8. Gamespot rated it 7.5. Matter of fact JA's B+ score (equated on average as an 85%) by GameRankings.com was actually close to the true mean average of all 10 ratings they listed. http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/939001.asp Also, Metacritic left out the perfect score of 100 that Adventure Classic Gaming gave to Nancy Drew: The White Wolf of Icicle Creek. So if GamesRadar had actually done their homework, they would have known that Just Adventure did NOT give it the highest rating and that several general gaming sites gave it a very good review. More on point is that (as Randy mentioned), the reviews here at JA are geared for this and ONLY this niche audience. I tend to think they are a little high sometimes but the text is always well written and the reviewers actually know what they're talking about. They also know this audience far better than the average general gaming site - particularly those dumbasses at GamesRadar. Bottom-line: GamesRadar posted a highly sexist, extremely insulting article that included a terriblly childish slur. They also singled out JA based on incomplete information and their conclusion that JA was the sole cause for Nancy Drew: The White Wolf of Icicle Creek getting a passing score on average was totally false. If you throw out both the JA and Adventure Classic Gaming scores of 85 and 100 at GameRankings.com, you still get a solid 71.6 average rating and several general gaming sites including Gamespot gave it higher scores than that. Cheers, Terry . |
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| 16 AUG 2008 at 11:47pm | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Easy to see you've done some research Terry. Thanks for that, facts are always illuminating. |
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| 17 AUG 2008 at 1:49am | |
onemanandhisdroidIntergalactic JanitorPosts : 16 Joined: 13 AUG 2008 Status : Online | Yeah, that's sadly a very dumb statement they made about girls' games, and it's still on. To do this in a review, is quite unprofessional This didn't happen in a review, Karsten. Not that it matters as far as the lack of professionalism is concerned. Just sayin'. it is also unprofessional to rant and rave about how great 3D sequences in action and shooter games are - when reviewing an adventure game That is correct. But it is also reasonable not to scan every line in search for something that isn't really there. Just because a reviewer complains about long dialogue, doesn't necessarily mean (s)he misses an alternative option to pull a gun and embrace all characters with jolly headshots instead. Just because a reviewer has complains about puzzles in a game, doesn't necessarily mean (s)he plain doesn't like puzzles. And so on. For there is nothing inherently awesome about dialogue, whether brief or plentiful. There is nothing inherently awesome about puzzles, whether hard or easy. There is nothing inherently awesome about pointing and clicking on stuff, either. Heck, there is nothing inherently awesome about 2d or 3d or much of anything. Whatever is there and deemed important needs to be assessed - and whether it works. If it makes for a coherent, clever and fun experience. Or not. By the way, thank you very much for also providing an example that for once isn't related to adventure games. As I said, fishy reviews exist, and it's not just for adventure games. And whenever another reviewer comes along wondering if adventure games ain't dead, don't take that all too literally. It might just mean that the reviewer in question hasn't played one that really wowed her or him in a long time. Or that (s)he doesn't know better - there's adventure games, and there's an awful lot more games to keep track of. You'll never know. Let's not forget that it also makes for a catchy phrase to start an adventure game review with. The world's not out to get 'em adventure games, like all of them. To assume otherwise strucks me as a tad silly. I think a lot of this is also blown out of proportion since people can't follow all publicatons all that closely, naturally, and then jump to conclusions whenever claims for bias or unjustified critique are made. If somebody likes to prove otherwise, it's time for arguments first. Those that prove solid, that is. While we're somehow still on the topic of reviews I noticed that quite a lot of reviews - if not most - Games Radar publishes on their site aren't actually written by their own editors, but authors from outside sources such as PC Zone UK, for instance. Does anybody know the story behind this one? |
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| 17 AUG 2008 at 3:30am | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . According to Randy's foreword, GamesRadar just compiles and posts reviews from other game sites and publications owned by parent company, Future plc. The original content they produce is mostly editorial commentary and special features like the series this article supposedly kicked-off - "The NEW State of Adventure Gaming". Cheers, Terry |
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