| 22 JUN 2008 at 4:45am |
GonchiSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 337
Joined: 24 SEP 2007
Status : Online | Actually, I think a lot of people agree with that (at least that's my impression from other forums I visit).
Even though her games tend to be amongst my least favorite of Sierra's catalog (with the exception of King's Quest VI and Colonel's Bequest, which was also co-designed though I can't remember by whom), I wouldn't necessarily say she wasn't a great designer, just not one of my favorites.
Yes, I realize this post contributes very little, if anything, to the topic. I could light a torch and swing it around a bit though, if that'll help...
But I'm not so complicated as to flee, &&or stand here in silence. &&But I'm not so simple as to not caution, &&that there aren't three minutes, or a hundred words, that could define me.&&&&[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlR-6Tw-5bE]Brief description of my person[/url] - Cuarteto de Nos
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| 22 JUN 2008 at 6:10am |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jujigatame (22 JUN 2008 1:24am)
Hear me out on this one. Admittedly, Roberta Williams was a pioneer in adventure games. She made some of the first graphical adventures and essentially created the genre. Kudos to her on that. However, let's face it, most of the King's Quest series is so-so. The pinnacle of the series was KQ6, which was a fantastic game, but it was co-designed by Jane Jensen who we all know is one of the best storytellers the genre ever saw. Then the series finished on a sour note with the 2 Williams designed turds that were KQ7 and KQ8. So basically, Roberta Williams never really made a great game on her own, and wasn't a particularly noteworthy designer anytime after the 80s when other, superior designers took over the genre.
Flame away.
Flame away? Well I could but as to whether or not she is or was a great game designer depends on which horse you are riding.
The woman created the graphical games not just Adventure games but graphical games. She and her husband built a computer gaming company from scratch and turned it into a powerhouse before selling it.
As far as great games are concerned your narrow selection is limited. But for every person who says KQ7 stinks another will say it is a classic. The point is many KQ games are loved by a lot of people. Was she a better story teller than Jane Jensen? No but that does not mean Ms Williams was not great in her own right.
There are not many who have a game design catalog that surpasses hers. She contributed more to gaming than most anyone else. As for superior designers that came after lets face it they had much better tools. When Williams was designing games you did not even have hard drives. Graphics were limited to floppys and the tech was very lacking. If it wasn't for Williams, Jensen would not have had a platform to create her games on. It's not to take away from Jensen or Chris Jones, (Tex Murphy) But Williams belongs up there with them.
But then again it's fun to argue the worth of Clemente, mantle, Aaron against the likes of Bonds, Sosa, Clemens etc. The trouble is the ones doing the comparing never played the game or designed a thing.
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| 22 JUN 2008 at 8:37am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16552
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | I've never heard of her but then I don't get into the games enough to learn who created what. However, if someone invents something then it only stands to reason that those who come after will be building upon that knowledge and will eclipse them.
That is not to take anything away from Jane Jensen but it shouldn't detract from Roberta Williams either. Sometimes talent needs a kick start from someone else.
I don't think it achieves anything useful to attempt to make creativity into some kind of crass competition. Just enjoy the proliferation of talent. One can praise Jane Jensen quite well without dumbing down Roberta Williams.
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| 22 JUN 2008 at 6:58pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Caroline (22 JUN 2008 8:37am)
I've never heard of her but then I don't get into the games enough to learn who created what. However, if someone invents something then it only stands to reason that those who come after will be building upon that knowledge and will eclipse them.
I agree completely. Can you compare the original sports greats with the current ones who have the benefit of better technology, not having to repeat the mistakes of the past, upgraded equipment (c'mon, the tennis racket surface area has increased by more than 50% since the 30's), and sports medicine? Everyone improves upon things that came before. Perhaps we should be criticizing the Wright Brothers since their plane only flew several hundred feet while todays designers can circle the globe?
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| 22 JUN 2008 at 8:57pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5540
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I don't fault Roberta Williams for the technical limits of her games but the persistent sadism of many of them, frustrating the player in every way possible. I remember reading an interview with Roberta Williams that had been done around the time of King's Quest 3 where she was essentially chortling over all the ways she stymied the player. Not with proper puzzles, but with all the ways the player was going to get smacked down with sudden death. She deserves due credit for launching the genre, certainly, but not for creating great games for the most part.
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| 22 JUN 2008 at 9:53pm |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Caroline (22 JUN 2008 8:37am)
I've never heard of her but then I don't get into the games enough to learn who created what. However, if someone invents something then it only stands to reason that those who come after will be building upon that knowledge and will eclipse them.
That is not to take anything away from Jane Jensen but it shouldn't detract from Roberta Williams either. Sometimes talent needs a kick start from someone else.
I don't think it achieves anything useful to attempt to make creativity into some kind of crass competition. Just enjoy the proliferation of talent. One can praise Jane Jensen quite well without dumbing down Roberta Williams.
Caroline, Roberta Williams is the creater of the Kings Quest games, Laura Bow series, Mystery House and others. Most of those in the 80's and early 90's. She and her husband, Ken Williams started Sierra On Line company. Not only did she write games but she and her husband created the original graphical engines to launch pictures and then added sound to pc games. It was the Williams and their company that hired Jane Jensen and gave us Gabriel Knight. Phantasmagoria was another of their projects. Of course Williams through sierra gave us Al Lowe, Leisure Suit Larry, Torrins Passage, Space Quest and that series of Detective Games, Police Quest. It was not Roberta who wrote or designed all of these latter games, though she worked in part on many of them. It was she and her husband who built the framework and hired these talented people to carry forward. She is Definitely a pioneer and deserving of the standing accorded her in the pc gaming hall of fame
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 2:14am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Andromus (22 JUN 2008 8:56pm)
I don't fault Roberta Williams for the technical limits of her games but the persistent sadism of many of them, frustrating the player in every way possible. I remember reading an interview with Roberta Williams that had been done around the time of King's Quest 3 where she was essentially chortling over all the ways she stymied the player. Not with proper puzzles, but with all the ways the player was going to get smacked down with sudden death. She deserves due credit for launching the genre, certainly, but not for creating great games for the most part.
This is EXACTLY my point. She deserves credit for being first, but she quite simply never made any real "all time great" type games. Her games didn't feature great puzzles, or great storytelling. They were very basic and rudimentary, with lots of "gotchas" that are the primary reason why some of Sierra's old adventures don't appeal to people who didn't play them back when they came out. I can give her a pass for her earlier efforts, because adventures (and computer games in general) were in their infancy. However, once the 90s rolled around the bar had been raised and she failed to clear it with her library of so-so titles. Saying "well people were building off what she started" isn't really valid because it's not like she just made a couple of KQ games in the 80s and then retired. She kept designing games late into the 90s and was clearly outshone by the other major designers at Sierra and Lucasarts.
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 2:17am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Can you compare the original sports greats with the current ones who have the benefit of better technology, not having to repeat the mistakes of the past, upgraded equipment (c'mon, the tennis racket surface area has increased by more than 50% since the 30's), and sports medicine?
I'm not sure that's really a valid analogy. Roberta Williams had access to all the same technology and knowledge that everyone else did from the late 80s on. I mean, designers aren't like athletes, they don't naturally deteriorate with age. If you plunked down a 25 year old Ted Williams into baseball today, I'm sure he'd take advantage of all the new equipment and training methods and be just as dominant as ever.
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 12:38pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16552
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Okay Juji, I think I've figured out the point of this thread. It's one of those 'Myst isn't as good as Whatever Game' conversations. Just an excuse for a discussion. Fair enough. But it would sound less hostile, less like ganging up and rubbishing Roberta if you concentrated your analysis onto the games both ladies developed instead of impugning the women themselves.
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 2:28pm |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Oh come now. This isn't even worth debating. She pioneered the genre and then took a backseat. She basically wasn't a head designer after King's Quest 6. You can't hold KQ7 against her, as it was also co-developed. KQ8 is NOT her fault at all, as the company was already doomed and forcing the 'mainstream' action genre upon the games. She did what she could to try and save that sinking ship, but you can only do so much when the suits demand every game mimmic Tomb Raider.
If you notice the King's Quest games were the first games of each generation of sierra engines. Each one was used as a 'test' game. So of course they have some issues. However I find King's Quest V to be great, despite it's rough edges. I can't say how much of that is blind nostalgia....but barring the desert it was a fun game. King's Quest VI is amaizng all the way through and you can't discount her involvement just because Jensen was the co-designer. I don't see how having her involved suddenly makes Roberta useless.
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 6:08pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Not being "great" isn't even a real criticism. No, nothing Roberta designed was as good as the Gabriel Knights in my book, but then what is? Oh, and KQ8 is one of the best action/adventures ever, the fact that traditional fans of the series couldn't swing a virtual sword if their life depended on it doesn't change that.
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 7:51pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I've heard the name Roberta Williams mentioned a lot & thank you to the person who posted what exactly it was she did!
The oldest games I've played are probably the Gabriel Knight series & after seeing so many posts over the years about the joys of the Kings Quest series I bought a compilation that in theory will run on my XP system. When & if I can get them to run am I going to be very disappointed?
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 8:07pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2350
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By loobiloo (23 JUN 2008 7:51pm)
When & if I can get them to run am I going to be very disappointed?
Not at all! Most of them are actually very good. Most of them are also quite old (ie. from the 1980s), but if that's not an issue for you, then you should have lots of fun, indeed!
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 8:16pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Thank you JKing, I have no issue with playing older games (if I can get them to play!). I love the great graphics that we are now getting in AGs but I can equally enjoy a good tale with lesser!
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 9:20pm |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 28 NOV 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By loobiloo (23 JUN 2008 8:15pm)
Thank you JKing, I have no issue with playing older games (if I can get them to play!). I love the great graphics that we are now getting in AGs but I can equally enjoy a good tale with lesser!
loobiloo, AGD interactive did a remake of KG 1 + 2 with sound and voice where the original did not. In fact KQ 2 remake made added puzzles and fleshed out the story for more detail. They offer the games free and they are designed for WinXP. Run like a charm and are all point and click. Games are perfectly legal and have been reviewed right here at JA. Google the company I forgot the addy.
The early KQ games required you to type in commands ( parser). Where you had to type in "pick up cup", "use cup" stuff like that. Sometimes it was quite picky, if you said "get cup" you could get a response, "I see no cup" And you flounder around until finally you type, "take cup". The two remakes are updated, no parser and provide a direct comparison to differences between then and now.
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 10:16pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2350
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By antler (23 JUN 2008 9:20pm)
Games are perfectly legal and have been reviewed right here at JA. Google the company I forgot the addy.
You are looking for AGD Interactive
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 3:44am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Caroline (23 JUN 2008 12:38pm)
Okay Juji, I think I've figured out the point of this thread. It's one of those 'Myst isn't as good as Whatever Game' conversations. Just an excuse for a discussion. Fair enough. But it would sound less hostile, less like ganging up and rubbishing Roberta if you concentrated your analysis onto the games both ladies developed instead of impugning the women themselves.
Isn't everything here just an excuse for discussion? Perhaps my tone seems hostile but that's not really my intent. Of course, that's not to say I don't believe everything I'm saying. I don't believe Roberta Williams was a very good game designer, neither in the way of puzzle design or storytelling. I never once played one of her games and thought "this is really a great example of the genre". The one exception was KQ6 and I'd say it's highly conspicuous that KQ6 was co-designed by Jane Jensen, who we know from the GK series is one of the finest designers to ever put her hands to an adventure game. Laura Bow 2 was a similar story. It was a great game that outshone its predecessor, perhaps due to the fact that Williams was not the chief designer anymore.
loobiloo, I personally think KQ was the weakest of the various "quest" series, even though it was always very popular. KQ6 is the real gem of the series, so that one is worth your time at the very least. Space Quest is great if you like the tongue-in-cheek sci-fi tone of it, and Quest for Glory was a wonderful series that sadly is very difficult to find these days. Police Quest was great too if you're into the cops-and-robbers thing.
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 4:06pm |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | I fully agree King's Quest was the weakest of the quest series (barring KQV and VI, which are better than say - PQ1)
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 7:23pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By antler (23 JUN 2008 9:20pm)
loobiloo, AGD interactive did a remake of KG 1 + 2 with sound and voice where the original did not. In fact KQ 2 remake made added puzzles and fleshed out the story for more detail. They offer the games free and they are designed for WinXP. Run like a charm and are all point and click. Games are perfectly legal and have been reviewed right here at JA. Google the company I forgot the addy.
The early KQ games required you to type in commands ( parser). Where you had to type in "pick up cup", "use cup" stuff like that. Sometimes it was quite picky, if you said "get cup" you could get a response, "I see no cup" And you flounder around until finally you type, "take cup". The two remakes are updated, no parser and provide a direct comparison to differences between then and now.
Thanks for the info Antler, I've recently, to enlighten myself, downloaded & played a purely text AG just to see what they were about. So now I would be interested to try both!
Thank you also for the link JKing! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 9:44pm |
SuperEdyPrivate Detective
Posts : 772
Joined: 30 MAR 2007
Status : Online | Heresy
She was one of the first to introduce many game design elements and she always pushed the limits of technology in her games.
First graphic adventure (Mystery Manor), one of the first EGA game (King's Quest), one of the first games to have music and a female protagonist (King's Quest IV)
I think King's Quest VII was one of the first adventures to use a single multi-function cursor, Phantasmagoria was one of the first FMV, and she tried 3d much before anyone else.
It's true, she was a mediocre writer, many of her games sold well because of their technical breakthroughs, not because the story was good or because the puzzles were clever (the Rumplestilskin puzzle in KQ1 still deserves the golden raspberry) and the technology is no excuse, Infocom games used to run on a Commodore 64.
Anyways whoever introduces so many novelties in her games should be placed in the pantheon of game designers (and in the hell of writers)
[b]Currently Playing[/b]: None of your business
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 1:00am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By avatar_58 (24 JUN 2008 4:06pm)
I fully agree King's Quest was the weakest of the quest series (barring KQV and VI, which are better than say - PQ1)
I'd have to disagree on KQ5. I think the storyline is trite and the puzzles are boring and ordinary, and the usual annoying dead-ends are in full effect. I think it's a very mediocre game which had fantastic production values for its time.
SuperEdy, I think we are actually in agreement despite you calling me a heretic. Roberta Williams was responsible for a lot of firsts in adventure gaming. I just think that being first is not all it's cracked up to be. Just because a game is groundbreaking technically doesn't mean it's actually any good.
P.S. Phantasmagoria was not the first FMV adventure, and GK2 and the Tex Murphy series were far superior games anyway.
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 10:36am |
KarstenSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 347
Joined: 23 SEP 2006
Location: DK
Status : Offline | Thanks for this info about Roberta Williams. I never knew how she really was.
I do think that she deserves credit for all that she has done, not only for the adventure game genre, but for pc gaming as well.
I know that I have been very frustrated with the King's Quest games, partly because you can die in many stupid ways. Not funny.
Partly because Ken Williams (I think it was Ken Williams?) always designed a music puzzle with a color coded puzzle. Argh. I had to use a walkthrough to get past these puzzles since I am as tonedeaf as I am colorblind. (I kid you not).
Anyway, I enjoyed the King's Quest games, both 4,5, and 6 and 7. KQ8 was an OK game, but not a great game, I find. I enjoyed the King's Quest game so much so I bought the King's Quest Collection. (1-7 is in it) along with the Space Quest Collection.
I can't telle whether or not Robera Williams is or was a great game designer. I think that the stories in her King's Qeust games are among the best in the adventure game genre. Some time ago, I found a demo of "KQ4 - the perils of rosella" - I was amazed at how well the graphics have ages compared with todays 3D games. The engine must have been great
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 7:59pm |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jujigatame (25 JUN 2008 1:00am)
SuperEdy, I think we are actually in agreement despite you calling me a heretic. Roberta Williams was responsible for a lot of firsts in adventure gaming. I just think that being first is not all it's cracked up to be. Just because a game is groundbreaking technically doesn't mean it's actually any good.
Depends on what you hold it up to. Dead ends exist in many sierra games, it only continued the trend. Therefore it's tough to use that as a talking point. KQV pretty much started the use of the point and click engine in sierra games. Therefore it deserves a great deal of credit since even some games of today can't get this stuff right.
For instance Doom is very much a great game, but you can't fault it for not using the wasd+mouse controls when they didn't exist yet. KQV can't be faulted for things it was merely carrying over from the era it arose from.
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 9:00pm |
SuperEdyPrivate Detective
Posts : 772
Joined: 30 MAR 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jujigatame (25 JUN 2008 1:00am)
I just think that being first is not all it's cracked up to be. Just because a game is groundbreaking technically doesn't mean it's actually any good.
Yes, the stories are derivative (sometimes even plagiarized) and the puzzles banal but what you're missing and the reason why she's considered a great game designer is because of the way she told stories, not for the stories she told. When the games came out, the graphics, music, animations, voices, interface all contributed to a great experience, people were mesmerized by this new kind of games.
Mystery House was the first adventure I ever saw and I was spellbound by it, I recently tried it on an emulator and it sucks, so what? That only proves that the game was a product of its times, do you need to only design all-time classics to be great?
Nowadays games like Mass Effect have a lead designer and a lead writer, there are two different figures. Unfortunately she was both, so I think the title of the thread is wrong, it should be "Roberta Williams couldn't write an original story to save her life", of course, if it was like that, everybody would simply agree.
BTW I think Phantasmagoria is nothing more than a (scarcely) interactive movie and undoubtedly her worst game
[b]Currently Playing[/b]: None of your business
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