| 11 JUL 2008 at 7:46pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Well, considering that things went haywire after it was taken I would think it is safe to assume that restoring it was a good thing. My only beef is the whole catnapper thing. The crown was still safe yet that was going on AND the portrait at the old storehouse would seem to indicate the Agers were involved. So in that regard, bad things were happening anyway.
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| 11 JUL 2008 at 9:54pm |
JelenaPrivate Detective
Posts : 587
Joined: 30 SEP 2007
Status : Offline | While playing the game I got the impression that the people of Saxton lived side by side, but somehow from different times, sort of beyond time, not affected of it anymore: Nanny Noah's home looked like it was from the -50th and Mr Tawny's workshop looked even older while Prof Oogle had quite a lot of technology at his museum.
I also got the impression that Nigel was there in the village. I actually thought that the tears in the image as well as the orange dots in the image towards the end when Nigel was standing in the rain, talking to Lucy were some kinds of bugs that had slipped through the beta testing. It just never occurred to me that it was a a part of the story.
The theory about Saxton being a virtual world made by Mr Haddon is interesting and would explain some things like how well informed he is about Nigel's doings and those imperfections in the images. But for what reason would he create such a virtual world? And wouldn't there have been more clues in that direction within the game? Or did I just miss all of them?
Originally Posted By Ivinia (11 JUL 2008 7:45pm)
Well, considering that things went haywire after it was taken I would think it is safe to assume that restoring it was a good thing. My only beef is the whole catnapper thing. The crown was still safe yet that was going on AND the portrait at the old storehouse would seem to indicate the Agers were involved. So in that regard, bad things were happening anyway.
I believe even though Nigel were warned about searching for the crown he was so filled with excitement about finding the crown that he didn't realize it was a bad idea until it was too late. Returning it quickly was the only thing to do.
The catnapping thing was indeed strange. Perhaps Mr Gruel who obviously was really weird, somehow worshipped the Ager brothers and made sacrifices by killing those cats in the Nightmare room. Perhaps those actions tied the Ager brother's hauntings together with the fact that Nigel was setting some ghosts killed by the Ager brothers free during the same time.
I'm just rambling here, but I do love a game that puts so many thoughts into my head even after the game is over.
Temporary guest in your life.
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| 12 JUL 2008 at 8:28am |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Ok, I will accept that removing the crown IS a bad thing, but does Mr Haddon want Nigel to bring it back to him knowing the effect this will have on Saxton, or just discover where it is? If it's the latter, then maybe the whole game is set up as a test for Nigel (and possibly Lucy) which is why Mr Haddon hires them both at the end.
It is another anomaly of the game's plot that the Crown is protected by the spirits of 4 evil, creepy, villainous brothers who are portrayed as the bad guys, yet their overall mission is to stop disaster happening to Saxton (and the Fenlands) by preventing anyone discovering the Crown's whereabouts. Therefore they are in some way the good guys? (This stuff gets more complicated every time I think about it) Athough there was some information about them in a book in the museum I couldn't find anything that explicitly said wnen or why they were entrusted with this duty.
I am going to have to play this again and take some notes as to what is going on, because I have never finished a game with so many strands that are still open for discussion at the end.
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| 12 JUL 2008 at 9:18am |
LaurieIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Steve V (12 JUL 2008 8:27am)
Ok, I will accept that removing the crown IS a bad thing, but does Mr Haddon want Nigel to bring it back to him knowing the effect this will have on Saxton, or just discover where it is? If it's the latter, then maybe the whole game is set up as a test for Nigel (and possibly Lucy) which is why Mr Haddon hires them both at the end.
In the intro you can see that Nigel was recruited on 7 November 1978, not at the end of the game, when Lucy is recruited. 7 November happens to be Mr. Boakes birthday, at least that's what it says at one of his web sites. But Jonathan Boakes is 35 years old, not 30 like his spitting image claims (in the first church).
I am going to have to play this again and take some notes as to what is going on, because I have never finished a game with so many strands that are still open for discussion at the end.
I predict that you will end up with even more questions, anomalies, contradictions and paradoxes.
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| 12 DEC 2008 at 3:06pm |
| Deleted User | Sorry, guys, hope you don't mind, but I thought it useful to bump this thread to make it easier to find...
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| 13 DEC 2008 at 6:49pm |
MystiBobSpace Cadet
Posts : 172
Joined: 13 DEC 2008
Status : Offline | After reading all these Lost Crown threads, my head spins a lot more than after I had finished playing the game.
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| 14 DEC 2008 at 8:59am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By MystiBob (13 DEC 2008 6:49pm)
After reading all these Lost Crown threads, my head spins a lot more than after I had finished playing the game.
Yes, well - I suppose one has your own little idea of how everything sticks together, and then when you read someone else's ideas which are diametrically opposed to your own, you start seeing little things that you might have missed; and doubt creeps in about your own original assessment... ...but you're also not quite sold on the other person's ideas.
Is that the kind of situation that you are talking about?
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| 14 DEC 2008 at 3:15pm |
MystiBobSpace Cadet
Posts : 172
Joined: 13 DEC 2008
Status : Offline | Yes, Traveler, it is.
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| 22 DEC 2010 at 11:07pm |
trickster61Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 22 DEC 2010
Status : Online | Hi,
I know this is two years on since the last postings, but I thought I'd like to add my tuppence...
I'm a bit sketchy on this point, maybe I've been sleep walking!!
In relation to Hardacre having his noggin smashed in with a scythe, was this not one of the Agers who did this? How about the Vicar in Northfield Curch, isn't he an Ager? When we speak to the Vicar, we can ask him who the photograph is of on the wall, he replies that it is one of his relatives. We later find out that the photograph is Thomas Ager.
The Vicar then says he's been at the Church for the last 30 years but when we mention the Vicar to Nanny Noah, she says 'Oh, they've got someone new in', or words to that affect.
I was half expecting the Vicar to turn up later on in the game. Maybe he was behind the Hardacre killing and he was the cat-napper and he framed Gruel, or he had Gruel do the cat-nappings on his behalf...
Also, at the start of the game, where the train is steaming through the countryside, we see a grave stone with the name Cole Tawny on. Wasn't this Nanny Noah's son who dies, but does that mean that she had that child with Bob Tanwy? I thought Nanny Noah was married to someone else?
Again, more questions than answers...
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| 23 DEC 2010 at 8:57am |
AmunPtahIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 34
Joined: 28 NOV 2003
Status : Online | I always thought that Bob and Nanny Noah had Cole together, but his death ended their relationship. They still seem to have a soft spot for each other as they speak highly of each other, but perhaps the death was too much for them.
I also thought the dragonfly could represent Cole, as it turns up there and at other places, the most obvious being at The Ark, where you have to wait and watch it land briefly before you can move on. The son checking up on his mother?
Visit http://www.tomrbaynham.com/ for an exclusive audio interview with Jonathan Boakes and Matt Clark, creators of The Lost Crown and Barrow Hill.
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| 27 DEC 2010 at 9:23pm |
trickster61Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 22 DEC 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By AmunPtah (23 DEC 2010 8:57am)
I always thought that Bob and Nanny Noah had Cole together, but his death ended their relationship. They still seem to have a soft spot for each other as they speak highly of each other, but perhaps the death was too much for them.
I also thought the dragonfly could represent Cole, as it turns up there and at other places, the most obvious being at The Ark, where you have to wait and watch it land briefly before you can move on. The son checking up on his mother?
Thanks. Yeah I agree about the dragonfly being Cole. Even in the opening sequence of the game as we see Cole Tawny's gravestone, a dragonfly appears and settles on it.
Regarding Nanny Noah and Bob, I've restarted the game and here's the conversation I have with Bob (or Mr Tawny to you lad!)
ND: Have you known Nanny Noah long?
BT: All my life lad, and that's a long time.
ND: She seems to think highly of you.
BT: I think highly of her too.
ND: Oh, do I sense romance?
BT: If only lad but I've never, well... asked her hand if you know what I mean.
ND: Has she never married?
BT: She had a bit of bad fortune, lost her husband. Many years ago it was.
ND: Any children?
BT: There was, but not now. The sea provides for this town, but it can also take away.
ND: What do you mean?
BT: It's the way of all things lad.
So it doesn't say that Bob was the father, but it doesn't say the husband was the father either; maybe Bob was the Husband? Knowing how much the game is dream like, anything could be possible...
Maybe the Saxton Snapper was Cole as well...
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| 12 MAR 2011 at 2:19pm |
semihSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 209
Joined: 25 OCT 2009
Status : Online | This game has many plot holes. The ending doesn't satisfy the player.
Jonathan wants to extend the story.He is right in his own way because he needs money. He says "If you want to learn all the answes then you must buy my games".But according to me an adventure game must answer all the questions connected with the story.
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| 12 MAR 2011 at 4:46pm |
MaumPrivate Detective
Posts : 593
Joined: 2 JUN 2007
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Wow that's the big debate though.
I am perfectly happy to play a game with an ending that leaves me puzzled and perplexed, or at least gets me thinking afterwards. Even though I didn't get them I enjoyed the ending of Outcry and Darkness Within (Scratches as well I just remembered) for instance, because the overall atmosphere and mood of the games carried my interest all the way through.
For that same reason I loved the ending of the Lost Crown- like I did The Longest Journey, Dreamfall (and others that I can't think of right now).
Saying that when the game has not worked as well an open ending with the view of a sequel can be very disappointing. Culpa Innata was to me a perfect case in point- by the end I got bored and the main reveal was so disappointing that I got irritated by all the unanswered questions.
Anyway we'd need a whole new thread for this, but basically I disagree with 'the ending doesn't satisfy the player'. You mean it didn't satisfy you.
ETA by the way it's rather unfair to suggest that Jonathan Boakes is only making a sequel for the money (thereby suggesting that he's cheating the people who bought The Lost Crown). His games are always original, well crafted and made with a great attention to detail. He's already made a series of games and in The Lost Crown he's created interesting characters that have great potential towards many storylines.
Despite the open ended ending I don't feel cheated- I'm excited that the game will have a sequel but I would have been happy without.
Currently playing: Dragon Age Origins, Dishonored, The Witcher, Fallout 3, Deponia
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| 12 MAR 2011 at 6:57pm |
semihSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 209
Joined: 25 OCT 2009
Status : Online | There is no result in the end. You spend your time just for nothing.
It is another kind of "Still Life 2"i I am also sure that Jonathan Boakes also doesn't know what happens in the end.
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| 14 MAR 2011 at 8:08pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By panter (12 MAR 2011 2:19pm)
This game has many plot holes. The ending doesn't satisfy the player.
Jonathan wants to extend the story.He is right in his own way because he needs money. He says "If you want to learn all the answes then you must buy my games".But according to me an adventure game must answer all the questions connected with the story.
I agree that the game has many plot holes & also that an AG should answer all the questions connected with the story. Perhaps they were & we as players just didn't get it? & JB had in mind a sequel anyway?
I felt infuriated at investing so much time playing a very engaging game to understand so little at the end & had a lot to say about it at the time! But did the developer ever actually say "If you want to learn all the answers then you must buy my games"? or is he developing another because many players like me have moaned about it?
I will definitely be buying The Last Crown, but aside from my criticisms of the Lost Crown, I have bought & played all of JBs other games apart from Dark Fall: Lost Souls (which I have) & have a lot of respect for him as a developer. I'm sure a lot of other players have also & are always interested in buying his games. I don't believe that any developer would invest their talents in producing Adventure Games purely for the money as they could do a lot better making other types of games!
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 8:51am |
walshSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 384
Joined: 15 DEC 2010
Status : Offline | I just finished Lost Crown and my, I must say it is an incredible game. To think that a horror title could have such emotional depth is extraordinary. Easily the most involving game since at least The Longest Journey or Syberia. It is stunningly beautiful and at the same time innovative in its use of black and white mixed with colour. It is even more surprising that it retains such qualities when the voice actors are only of average skill, except perhaps for Nanny Noah. I am very excited for the next in the series (I do hope it will be a trilogy).
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 9:00am |
MaumPrivate Detective
Posts : 593
Joined: 2 JUN 2007
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Sounds like you had the same reaction as me. So what did you think of the controversial ending? Did it leave you frustrated?
Currently playing: Dragon Age Origins, Dishonored, The Witcher, Fallout 3, Deponia
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 10:36am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Remind me again what aspects of the ending it is that irritate people so much? I personally quite liked the ending. I can't really see it ending in a better way.
The people who don't like the ending: What about it would you change?
I keep hearing people say that the ending was so unfinished an left them unsatisfied, and I always wonder what exactly it is that bothers them. I'm talking about the very end of the game now - the scene where the game finishes and the one just before, where all of the characters get together after the crown has been returned.
...-or is it not the very ending that people are talking about, but just loose ends in general?
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 10:49am |
MaumPrivate Detective
Posts : 593
Joined: 2 JUN 2007
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I assume it's the loose ends- the Agers, who killed the cats, who took all the pictures, the mad antiquarian etc.
The only thing that really 'bothered' me about the game was how the cottage owner's wife died of poisoning from the water in the well but he didn't when he in fact lived in the cottage longer than her.
I thought the very ending made sense- the crown's returned, order is restored, Nigel and Lucy re-unite and the whole time Haddon has been one step ahead of them.
Loobiloo I personally don't believe an AG game should answer all its questions- it really depends on the game IMO.
I loved Scratches because the ending was so ambiguous. I loved Dreamfall because the ending was so open ended and shocking.
I love games that leave me thinking and questioning.
Currently playing: Dragon Age Origins, Dishonored, The Witcher, Fallout 3, Deponia
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 10:57am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Agreed Maum. I liked the actual ending where he returns the crown.
As for the series of sketches that make up the whole of the game in general: yes, I agree that a lot of is rather open-ended, complex, and left open to interpretation, but isn't that just what life is like, anyway? The thing is, it's definitely not a simplistic game for kids; it's quite a complex little collage, and one that can stretch one's... horizons a bit, but I don't see that as a bad thing really.
I gained a lot of satisfaction from the exposure to the different characters and their personal little stories, and also the almost surrealistic 'feel' of the way that Boakes plays around with time and reality. But then I've always enjoyed the postmodernist genre in literature as well.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 11:22am |
MaumPrivate Detective
Posts : 593
Joined: 2 JUN 2007
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I'm 100% with you- I loved the game's ending (see the other resurrected thread in The Hot Spot).
I thought it was a bit strange to accuse Boakes of cynically making a confusing game to force people to buy the sequel and ultimately make more money.
When I played the game I didn't even know there would be a sequel (or if it was even on the cards for that matter) and I still didn't feel cheated.
Currently playing: Dragon Age Origins, Dishonored, The Witcher, Fallout 3, Deponia
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 6:58pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Maum, I don't mind a game that leaves you questioning & thinking - I can't remember the ending of Scratches, but Dreamfall was satisfying in one respect that it played through a complete story within it but has so far failed in others because the promised sequel needed to answer other questions has not yet materialised! A game I loved was Paradise which I thought had a lot of depth with an ambiguous but thought provoking ending. The problem I have with The Lost Crown is that although there were satisfying tasks to complete within in it & the ultimate goal to return the crown was achieved it just didn't gel altogether for me as a story as there were too many unanswered questions. In my mind it's the developers job to tie up the story, not the players - ambiguous thought-provoking ending is fine, theorising about plot holes is not fine! If I buy a game I expect it to be complete!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to The Last Crown as I know whatever, it will be a good experience but hoping more that it will answer some questions!
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 8:04pm |
MaumPrivate Detective
Posts : 593
Joined: 2 JUN 2007
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I see your point re ending and plot holes. I remember Dreamfall as having a completely up in the air storyline- the fate of the dream world left hanging, the male protagonist arrested, Zoe presumably dead, April possibly still alive.... I can't remember the details (I played it 4 years ago and can't install it on my new laptop) but I remembered it leaving the player with huge unresolved issues.
Scratches I agree had an ambiguous ending but a resolved storyline.
Currently playing: Dragon Age Origins, Dishonored, The Witcher, Fallout 3, Deponia
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| 16 MAR 2011 at 8:55pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Hi Maum, I think you've misread what I said - I don't remember the ending of Scratches (so I must have been quite happy with it) - it's Dreamfall that had a complete satisfying story with in it (which was the aim of the developer I read somewhere) but left so much else unanswered. Paradise was the game with the ambiguous ending! [smiley=laughing.gif]
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