| 14 JUN 2008 at 1:16am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | There was a thread where people tried to figure out what was going on in Lost Crown here
http://www.gameboomers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=301565
Pay special attention to Ivinia's contribution to that thread.
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| 14 JUN 2008 at 11:19am |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Well, here is what Jonathan Boakes sent me via e-mail (sorry Jonathan, but loads of people have no idea whats going on in TLC)
Actually, he doesn't clear up very much, he probably knew that his reply would somehow end up on a site like this!
Spoiler Alert
Part of my intial e-mail..
For what it's worth, my own theory is that Saxton is a ghost town, kind of like Brigadoon that has become live again due to the Hades experiment and that Nigel is lead there to fulfil the old legend or prophecy and that now that the crown is returned Saxton will once more dissapear haveng served it's purpose.
Jonathan's response..
Hi Steve,
It's always interesting to hear theories and ideas about the game, or any of the games I've made or worked on. Thanks for sharing a few. Your theory is a great one.
I'll try and let you know a few details, without giving too much away...so, apologies for giving some clues in the form of yet more questions!
The fact that Mr.Hadden seems to be able to watch Nigel's every move, and know he location, is a big clue. Is Mr.Hadden the most well informed man in the world, or...does he have prior knowledge. The Saxon Battle Helmet in the Museum is a 'replica', according to the plaque. So, does Mr.Hadden have the real one? Ironically, the biggest clue to Mr.Hadden is visible everytime you play the game, before you've even clicked New Game or loaded an old one.
The town of Saxton IS very strange. The fact that Nigel arrives on a steam train called the 'Sleepwalker' could also be a clue as to where Nigel actually is, and what he's doing there. Several of the things Nigel notes down as things to look out for actually happen...I.e. Did he, in fact, bring about many of the events? He dreams, in detail, of The Nightmare Room and ALL Ager brothers, before he's even been there, or learnt who the brothers are. Lots of people have mentioned to me via email, that their dreams are very much like the game world...black and white, with vivid elements of colour...like clues to something they cannot place, or their mind attempting to work through a problem too stressful for the conscious mind.
The town is very detailed, with a strong sense of history, but...it's a history that could be applied to many places, in many times. Does Saxton really exist, and has it ever really existed at all? Does it only exist to house the 'people' who live there? Many of the characters know each other, or say they do, yet the ages and time periods do not match. Nanny Noah is a grandmother figure, complete with 50's styled interior, 'Watch with mother' telly and tea and crumpets...she's like a creation born of pure nostalgia. Whereas Lucy, who knows of Nanny Noah, is a modern girl; with a Uni course and takeaway coffee. Do they come from different periods? Yet exist side by side?
As a boss, Mr.Hadden, at the end of play, has recruited both Nigel and Lucy...something Nigel was cornered into, and something Lucy seems happy to join. Is she also trying to get away from something, or is she trying to escape Saxton? If so, why? Is there something about Saxton that she knows, that we don't? What happened to her in Harbour Cottage, when she was small? Did it change her? Is Saxton a huge metaphor for death, in which miserable souls end up, looking for answers? Or, is the whole town, it's history and people one giant fabrication, in which the characters don't even know they are dreamt up by someone else...perhaps even Nigel himself. Or, Mr.Hadden....or, are they splintered characters, thrown together by Mr.Hares experiments with the 'chasm'...?
Instead, I prefer to believe that Saxton does, indeed, exist. Whether or not we would find it on a map, is another matter. Perhaps we have to be of a particular mind, or state, to arrive there...complete the task which is set us, and then move on to the next adventure. A kind of 'pause' location, in which things that should happen will happen, and somewhere that everyone knows us, because they have been waiting for us....
Eeek. Like I said, questions upon questions. There is a 'writers' conclusion to the story, but I hope I've given enough info to suggest that there is more than one way to read the game. Heaven and Hell? The afterlife? Existential problem solving? Science experiment? Or, just utter fantasy? I seem to have become quite notorious for writing material with no 'definite' interpretations...which can drive some people mad, but, I like to read ghost stories that keep you thinking long after the lights have gone out...that present theories that change and adapt as time passes. In both my previous games, I suggest that ghosts are not the spirits of the dead, and that there are actual causes for hauntings....perhaps Mr.Hadden and his experiments will prove to be the cause, in a future title.
Jonathan
Spoiler Alert
So there you go..all clear now? :-?
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| 14 JUN 2008 at 2:14pm |
LaurieIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | I too loved The Lost Crown. Great and intriguing game, in spite of a few flaws. The Gameboomers thread is definitely interesting and answers some, but not all, questions. The GB interpretation that Hadden has created a virtual world out of old photos was an eyeopener for me. It was fairly obvious from the start that Hadden was watching Nigel's every move. But I had concluded from the brownish spots that appear on the screen (when Nigel is asking Lucy to help him put the crown back) that Hadden had spilled some liquid on his monitor. To be honest, I'm still not entirely convinced my conclusion is wrong. :-/ Why would Nigel be walking *behind* the spots? He doesn't walk behind the tears, the rips in the photos at both churches. The tears are always there, the spots were not there before and they only appear for a very short while. When Nigel returns almost immediately they are gone.
My main problem with the GB interpretation that Nigel is either a ghost or an avatar is that it really doesn't explain much, the game is too multi-layered. We already know from Dark Fall One that Nigel sort of died in 2002.
As I posted elsewhere (nope, not at Gameboomers), yes, Nigel was warned from the very first it would not be right to steal the crown, just like it was wrong to steal the documents from Hadden. There are too many similarities to ignore. My take on the whole thing is that Hadden wants to teach Nigel a lesson in his virtual world. Hadden engineered everything. At first, Nigel tries to make a deal with Hadden, but he's a "lab rat", a "rat in a trap". Then he goes after the crown, like the treasure hunter that he is. When he takes it time and substance cease to exist, there is only eternal space. He repents "it's my fault, it's me that you want" and puts it back on Ganwulf's head. And then we're back in Mr. Hadden's office, where we see Ganwulf's helmet again. Ganwulf symbolizes Hadden. Hadden has his "crown" returned to him.
Quoting Jonathan Noakes: Ironically, the biggest clue to Mr. Hadden is visible every time you play the game, before you've even clicked New Game or loaded an old one.
Welllll.... of course I started the Lost Crown again and stared for a long time at the opening screen. Maybe too long, maybe that bloody sun has blinded me, cause I do'nt see a big clue anywhere! [smiley=boggled.gif]
The coin? The sun? The 4 seasons, or is that a rising/setting sun? The circling crows, clockwise and anti-clockwise? The Tarot? Which is used for divination... the specific cards perhaps? Devil, Three of Coins, Death and the Fool? I especially loved the Fool (Nigel?) who is totally unaware that he is about to step into the chasm. And how appropriate that clicking it will save your game... nice touch! But it can't be the clue Boakes is talking about, that card does not appear in the opening screen. Maybe he wasn't referring to the opening screen...? I give up, my head hurts. :
I have mixed feelings about the many questions Jonathan Boakes wants us to consider. I did consider most of them and was fascinated. I also disussed some of them with another Boakes fan, but in the end I'm left with the feeling that if our collective "hive mind" cannot come up with answers of the AHA! type that's disappointing. I want to make sense of what has been going on. Although not every single question needs to be answered, I want the pieces of the puzzle to fit. It's like I'm looking at a quilt of patchwork and I can project all kinds of patterns of my own but no matter how hard I try, I cannot find the pattern or any pattern that the creator had in mind.
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| 14 JUN 2008 at 11:16pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Just a few tidbits if no one else has mentioned this before. Hare and Crow are symbolic. Sort of a yin/tang. The hare represents life, rebirth, fertility, while the crow represents death. There's a bit more to this, but that is the gist of it.
Anyone notice the sign on the tavern, The Bear? The sign has a polar bear on it with a muzzle on it. Not sure if there is anything to read there.
On that opening screen you have 12 crows circling the symbol of the 4 seasons. Twelve crows... 12 months maybe? Twelve signs of the zodiac? Not only are they flying clockwise, but counter clockwise. Is this the clue JB spoke of? That Hadden has the ability to move through time at will to the past, present and future? Spoiler AlertI think we pretty much got that everyone was from somewhere else in time. On the book in that opening page there is also the symbol of the sun. The twelve signs of the zodiac traditionally are placed around the sun. The sun symbolizes authority.
I'm not sure how this gives as explanation to who Hadden is. We already know he is the one pulling the strings and can see everything from where he sits. For example, knowing Nigel is in the phonebooth, yet when Nigel asks if Hare and Crow are watching, Hadden says they aren't there yet or are still far away or something like that.
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| 15 JUN 2008 at 10:07am |
LaurieIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (14 JUN 2008 11:15pm)
On that opening screen you have 12 crows circling the symbol of the 4 seasons. Twelve crows... 12 months maybe? Twelve signs of the zodiac? Not only are they flying clockwise, but counter clockwise. Is this the clue JB spoke of? That Hadden has the ability to move through time at will to the past, present and future? Spoiler AlertI think we pretty much got that everyone was from somewhere else in time. On the book in that opening page there is also the symbol of the sun. The twelve signs of the zodiac traditionally are placed around the sun. The sun symbolizes authority.
The sun is without doubt the most conspicuous thing in the opening screen, but it's the sun of the Tarot cards (and the 4 seasons), not the sun of the zodiac signs. Don't know if that's important though.
I'm not sure how this gives as explanation to who Hadden is.
It doesn't. If this is the *biggest* clue Jonathan Boakes was referring to, well... then the hive mind has failed again. Mr. Boakes, on the off chance that you are reading this, that should give you food for thought. Everything may be crystal clear to you, but in my opinion you have failed to communicate your hints, clues, details in ways that make sense.
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| 15 JUN 2008 at 3:54pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Well seasonally, we know it's April. Leaves were on the trees in the game as we could also pick plants. In that menu screen it looks like the Fall. Any significance there? From my understanding, some tarot card interpretations are based on what season it is. Could be wrong though.
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| 15 JUN 2008 at 4:39pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Laurie (14 JUN 2008 2:14pm)
I have mixed feelings about the many questions Jonathan Boakes wants us to consider. I did consider most of them and was fascinated...................................................... but in the end I'm left with the feeling that if our collective "hive mind" cannot come up with answers of the AHA! type that's disappointing. I want to make sense of what has been going on. Although not every single question needs to be answered, I want the pieces of the puzzle to fit. It's like I'm looking at a quilt of patchwork and I can project all kinds of patterns of my own but no matter how hard I try, I cannot find the pattern or any pattern that the creator had in mind.
My sentiments exactly Laurie! I found this game very engaging from beginning to end, loved the artwork, but felt VERY let down at the end as there was no explanation as to what was going on.!
I play AGs primarily to immerse in a good story - I want to know what that story is at the time & don't want to have to rely on theories afterwards to make sense of it. A little ambiguity can be thought provoking & interesting if you can go back & view the game in a new light.
But as far as The Lost Crown goes, no theories so far have made any concrete sense of it, even the developer hasn't really explained it, so as far as I'm concerned as an AG it's a turkey!
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| 16 JUN 2008 at 11:32am |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | I did have a follow up e-mail conversation with Jonathan but again there's nothing in his replies that lets the cat out of the bag. He did confirm however that as far as he is concerned this is a self contained game with a beginning middle and end and if you read what he said about Hadden in my original post -
'Perhaps Mr Hadden and his experiments will prove to be the cause, in a future title (my italics)
That suggests that Hadden's experiments are NOT the cause of what happened in Saxton in TLC...
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 4:45pm |
LaurieIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | A very smart JB fan at another forum noticed (after reading about the "biggest clue" here in Boakes' email) that the shadow in the Darkling Room pic, which you see before the game starts, is wearing a hat just like the one Mr. Hadden wears in the game. Could this be THE clue? Or at least A clue?
[IMG]http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/530/darklinggf1.th.jpg[/IMG]
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| 3 JUL 2008 at 8:39pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Several people have pointed that one out, but it seems too cryptic with multiple possibilities. I have more theories on the game and that logo comes into play.
Anyone ever wonder if (since everyone seems to be from 'sometime' else, that maybe the current inhabitants are those that at some time in the past went on the search for the crown, found it, saw what happens as a result, put it back, and now in the 'afterlife' or virtual world, are cursed to watch over it? Just an odd thought.
Let's break down the entire cutscene step by step which I think really clears up what is going on.
You hear Hadden asking Mr. Hare and Mr. Crow to report. They are searching for Nigel. Hadden says he's seen too much. The agents ask how as the firewalls are hack proof. Hadden makes a comment about "only to those on the outside." This could mean the world outside of the physical building that is Hadden's headquarters OR it could mean outside of the virtual reality world that Hadden has created. If so, then that means that Nigel is running around in a virtual world before he even gets to Saxton and found a way to hack the system from within. I think that Mr. Hare and Mr. Crow - and possibly Nigel are all agents who go into Hadden's virtual world in order to deal with issues that crop up. After Hadden says "only to those on the outside" the agent responds with, "Ahhhh, he's one of us." Sort of like Agent Smith, Agent Jones, etc. from the movie The Matrix.
I'll tell you why I think they are all running around in a virtual world prior to going to the virtual world of Saxton (as evidenced by my previous comments about the tears in the photographs both here and on GameBoomers) later, but just think for a moment. What if that wheelchair in the hallway of that cutscene isn't Mr. Haddens, but Nigels? Nigel would be more than willing to enter a virtual world where he can once again 'walk'. (LOL, it might even explain why he walks so badly!) There is no indication that it belongs to Mr. Hadden - he's sitting in a regular chair. So whose wheelchair is it? Hadden makes a comment about Nigel knowing about D Labs. Where is the wheelchair? Right outside the door of D Labs. I always assumed the Mr. Hadden sitting in front of the monitors was located behind that door and took the entire camera moving forward as being one long shot, but if you watch again carefully, the camera never really pans 'through' that door to indicate what is on the other side, it jumps to a whole other area showing Mr. Hadden.
One thing a lot of people seem to be saying is that Mr. Hadden in the beginning of the game is clearly shown possessing the Lost Crown. Actually it doesn't. If you look below the crown, Hadden actually has the museum replica in his possession, not the real crown.
Perhaps the big clue here is that it is indeed Hadden who is searching for the crown and he manipulated Nigel into looking for it given Nigel's leanings toward snooping and letting curiosity get the best of him - as is proven by Nigel's computer printouts and trying to gain access to things he shouldn't have. As Hadden is the puppet master here, he might have seen Nigel as the perfect agent for going on Haddens quest for the crown.
Next up in that cutscene the computer monitors are all showing the train station - a MODERN train station with modern trains. Hadden makes a comment about "perhaps I can think of a better purpose for Mr. Danvers." Mr. Hadden then says, "He'll be catching the last train." after some more comments from Mr. Hare/Crow, Hadden says,"Nooo... leave him be. I know which train he is taking and I know where he's going." Suddenly the monitor shows not a modern train in a modern trainstation, but an old steam train - aptly named SleepWalker. Did Mr. Hadden suddenly manipulate that virtual modern train station and drop in the old steam train? It sure looks like it. That steam train is never seen until after Mr. Hadden has decided he might be able to use Nigel and right about at the moment Nigel boards one of the trains. Mr. Hadden took over where Nigel was going. This is why I think even Nigels escape was happening within a virtual world. Mr. Hadden wouldn't be able to pull that off in the real world. Once this switch happens Hadden then says ominously, "He's going nowhere...nowhere....at.....all"
We then see the train moving across the countryside and it sounds like the conductor is saying, "all changed... all changed..." could be wrong here, but that's what it sounds like to me.
Since it would seem that Nigel is actually being manipulated by Mr. Hadden that logo at the very beginning can have multiple meanings like Nigel is an extension of Mr. Hadden, Nigel is always shadowed by Mr. Hadden, etc.
If you watch that cutscene, you'll see Mr. Hadden go from panicking about Nigel getting into the system, to having an idea of how he might be able to use him, then manipulating the scene to control where Nigel was going. Nigel never went to Saxton to search for the Lost Crown, he was running from Mr. Hadden. It was after he arrived that he heard stories of lost treasure and became intrigued into finding the greatest treasure of all - just as Mr. Hadden predicted he would.
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| 4 JUL 2008 at 9:17pm |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Ivinia, there's a lot of interesting stuff in that last post but just to point out one fairly trivial thing..In Britain when a train reaches the last stop on a journey the conductor says 'all change, all change' meaning 'get off we aren't going any further'...I was more interested in the ticket that was in Lucy's wallet which says Sedgemarsh- Sedgemarsh, a normal return ticket has two destinations, say Sedgemarsh - London, London-Sedgemarsh..I tried to get Jonathan to expain why the ticket was 'wrong' as he's Engilsh and would know that, but he wasn't biting
I may be reading too much into this but that ticket implies to me that Lucy hadn't ever gone anywhere, Or maybe that Sedgemarsh was the only destination for that particular train?
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| 5 JUL 2008 at 2:36am |
LaurieIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (3 JUL 2008 8:38pm)
Several people have pointed that one out, but it seems too cryptic with multiple possibilities. I have more theories on the game and that logo comes into play.
Oh? I haven't seen the logo pointed out anywhere. If it's the "biggest clue" Jonathan Boakes meant, then it's certainly cryptic. Even so, more of a clue than the sun or the 4 seasons symbol in the opening screen.
One thing a lot of people seem to be saying is that Mr. Hadden in the beginning of the game is clearly shown possessing the Lost Crown. Actually it doesn't. If you look below the crown, Hadden actually has the museum replica in his possession, not the real crown.
Mr. Hadden doesn't have any *crown*, replica or not. He has the *helmet* from the museum. Not the same thing at all.
We then see the train moving across the countryside and it sounds like the conductor is saying, "all changed... all changed..." could be wrong here, but that's what it sounds like to me.
I agree with Steve, it's "all change". No doubt about it as far as I'm concerned.
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| 5 JUL 2008 at 6:07pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Steve V (4 JUL 2008 9:17pm)
In Britain when a train reaches the last stop on a journey the conductor says 'all change, all change' meaning 'get off we aren't going any further'...
Which fits with the theme of never being able to leave Sedgemarsh.
I don't doubt Jonathan Boakes meant both meanings, though most gamers in the US probably missed the train-specific one.
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| 6 JUL 2008 at 6:36pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Thank you for the information Steve. I did not know that. It would seem that it means nothing then.
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| 6 JUL 2008 at 7:09pm |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | My big fear with all of this is that Jonathan Boakes considers that the game is complete and therefore will not make any kind of a sequel that answers the questions that everybody has. Its ok for him to say that he likes to have the player thinking about what went on in his games but if nobody can come up with a definitive wrapping up of all of the plot strands we are all just left in the dark as to what we have just experienced. Despite the fact that it IS an excellent game, I feel that the designer himself hasn't realised how much of his story is unresolved at the end.
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| 6 JUL 2008 at 9:13pm |
LaurieIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Steve V (6 JUL 2008 7:09pm)
I feel that the designer himself hasn't realised how much of his story is unresolved at the end.
Exactly. That's why it is not a great game, just a good game.
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| 6 JUL 2008 at 9:28pm |
Joe_MolotovSpace Cadet
Posts : 153
Joined: 4 OCT 2003
Status : Online | That's a good post, Ivinia. If it is just a virtual world though, it begs the question of what is the purpose behind it? Was Mr. Hadden just running Nigel through the ghost hunting simulator? Was the Lost Crown just some kind of test of Nigel's abilities? And what's the deal with Lucy, we know she exists in the "real world" since Mr. Hadden's monitor says that he's hired her at the end. And unlike Nigel, who's just kind of dumped out there, just actually seems to have a real connection with the town, knowing all the inhabitants and town and having the brother who was a detective. I suppose she could be briefed earlier by Mr. Hadden and then just lied to Nigel about everything, but the end made it seem like Hadden had just now hired her because of how well she worked together with Nigel.
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| 7 JUL 2008 at 6:15am |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Joe_Molotov (6 JUL 2008 9:28pm)
That's a good post, Ivinia. If it is just a virtual world though, it begs the question of what is the purpose behind it? Was Mr. Hadden just running Nigel through the ghost hunting simulator? Was the Lost Crown just some kind of test of Nigel's abilities? And what's the deal with Lucy, we know she exists in the "real world" since Mr. Hadden's monitor says that he's hired her at the end. And unlike Nigel, who's just kind of dumped out there, just actually seems to have a real connection with the town, knowing all the inhabitants and town and having the brother who was a detective. I suppose she could be briefed earlier by Mr. Hadden and then just lied to Nigel about everything, but the end made it seem like Hadden had just now hired her because of how well she worked together with Nigel.
Lucy could have been 'bait' to lure Nigel to Saxton, but as there wasn't anywhere else to go once he got off the train that seems like a moot point. Amongst all the unanswered questions, why Nigel ended up in Saxton is I suppose the crux of the whole matter. There's also the timeslip problems, like the date that Nigel is supposed to have joined Haddon Corporation according to his pass and the postage date on the package of paranormal detection gear he receives- 1976? Also the Haddon Corporation website states that the company is based in Saxton? I suspect that a lot of this was just stuff Jonathan threw in there to create ever more confusion for the player without any intention to explain any of it, just to add more mystery to the whole thing.
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| 7 JUL 2008 at 6:37am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Maybe Mr. Haddon wants to find the real crown. So he threw all the information he had into this computer simulation. A lot of it was from scans of old photographs, information about the people who'd lived there, and stories of events that had happened in the area, both factual and mythical. The computer connected things together in sometimes bizarre ways -- like the Ager brothers in the painting being joined by Nigel at one point, or the rust-colored patch that appeared when it rained.
After Nigel broke in (hacked into the simulation?) at the beginning of the game, Haddon decided to use Nigel as his detective -- to figure out where the crown might be hidden in the real world by watching Nigel try to find it in the virtual world. Or maybe Haddon wanted the simulation to predict what would happen if the crown was found and removed from its location.
Lucy could be both a person in the real world and an avatar based on the real Lucy who Haddon placed in the virtual world.
Considering that Jonathan Boakes' previous game "ark Fall: Lights Out" had more to do with science fiction than ghosts, that may be the case with "The Lost Crown" as well.
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| 7 JUL 2008 at 2:00pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Yep. I'm not quite sure about all of the loose ends. The only thing that didn't sit right with me was the ending to the whole catnapping caper. All that work, then it's just 'resolved'. It seemed a bit hasty to me. I'm not convinced they actually caught the right person.
Anyone list the loose ends? To me the only unresolved issue was that we never got a full explanation of Mr. Hadden, but then again the signs are there for people to see. Is a full blown biography of him expected to give it closure?
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