| 28 MAY 2008 at 5:28am |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
No contest here. I'd much prefer a well produced (optionally skippable) cut scene.
Cheers, Terry
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 7:25am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Cut scene, absolutely. For starters it's quicker.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 8:32am |
pavel4444Space Cadet
Posts : 124
Joined: 2 MAY 2008
Status : Online | cutscenes of people opening their mouths and speaking? no thanks.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 9:43am |
| Deleted User | If wer'e going to wade through a lot of talking anyway, I suppose I'm with the cutscene crowd.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 11:32am |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | Cut scene. Clicking my way through dialogue is a poor excuse for interactivity.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 4:17pm |
papillonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 340
Joined: 3 JUL 2003
Status : Online | As I said elsewhere, I love dialog, but if there are no real choices to make, stop wasting my time by pretending that there are.
As for the illusion of keeping up a conversation - you can do that if you have superficial choices to make (say, the conversation goes down a linear track, but you get to choose one of several responses for your character to say now and then... it doesn't really affect the way things turn out but it lets you control the persona of your character) and that can count as roleplaying. But navigating awkwardly through menus just to click every option isn't much of an illusion.
[url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url]
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 4:40pm |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | This brings about a flaw in the genre. Why can't we have more games with interactive conversations? Some RPGs do it, making you choose what to say rather just going through the motions of every option.
Being able to change the course of the game based on what you say would be much better. Or even having multple choices like in the older Lucasarts games - they rarely changed anything, but they prompted different responses from the other characters and you only got one choice.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 4:49pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By avatar_58 (28 MAY 2008 4:39pm)
This brings about a flaw in the genre. Why can't we have more games with interactive conversations? Some RPGs do it, making you choose what to say rather just going through the motions of every option.
Being able to change the course of the game based on what you say would be much better.
Post Mortem was one who did that, but I foud that it irritated me a bit, being afraid I would close doors by making the wrong choice.
I'm sure there are other AG's where the course of the game is also affected by dialogue choices, I just can't think of one right now.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 5:01pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (28 MAY 2008 4:49pm)
Post Mortem was one who did that, but I foud that it irritated me a bit, being afraid I would close doors by making the wrong choice.
I'm sure there are other AG's where the course of the game is also affected by dialogue choices, I just can't think of one right now.
Culpa Innata is thus to some extent: if you say the wrong thing you can alienate your subject and waste a day of investigating. To my knowledge it doesn't have a bearing on the outcome of the game nor really its overall progression, but it certainly makes a dent in your score.
You can't kill someone in a studio.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 5:11pm |
pavel4444Space Cadet
Posts : 124
Joined: 2 MAY 2008
Status : Online | I guess most of you miss the main points that when you have dialogue it has breaks in the conversation where you can step away from the computer and then resume playing. Not with a cutscene. You will waste more time having to replay long cutscene. And most of the times cutscenes are supposed to show something like drama or action, not just 2 people talking for 5-10 minutes a dozen times per game, that would be idiotic.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 5:22pm |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By JKing (28 MAY 2008 5:01pm)
Culpa Innata is thus to some extent: if you say the wrong thing you can alienate your subject and waste a day of investigating. To my knowledge it doesn't have a bearing on the outcome of the game nor really its overall progression, but it certainly makes a dent in your score.
Culpa handled it pretty good, unfortunately many conversations were rather dull and pointless. You also begin to notice that every important dialogue choice changes the background tune, tipping you off as to what you need to say.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 5:57pm |
Steve VSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 265
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Online | I used to think a dialogue tree was good because if you hadn't listened properly or just forgot what somebody said you had the option to click on the topic again. But most games now have some way of accessing the conversations through notes in inventory so its a moot point. I still think that the best dialogues are where you get a choice of things to discuss, but once you choose, it narrows your options of what else you can talk about. This at least makes you think about how you want to handle the conversation which is a puzzle in itself.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 6:45pm |
firstpersononlyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 3
Joined: 6 FEB 2008
Status : Online | To begin, I must admit that I am not a big fan of dialogue in games or any interaction with people. I much prefer to explore on my own. I believe this is part of the reason I am dedicated to the first person perspective. For this reason I only have limited experience with current dialogue variations but I do have an opinion and some observations.
Dialogue in today’s games seems to consist of unnecessary animated lectures that could easily be handled with written material or voice over. I was very disappointed to find that Mysterious Journey II, not only had a seemingly endless series of long dialogue clips, but also changed from first person to third person during all those clips. For me, it was the worst possible combination and it left me very dissatisfied with the entire game. (I had expected better based on its predecessor.) If I want to sit back and watch characters dialogue I’ll just watch a movie.
The selection of pre-formed questions is more interactive but not much. It often has the advantage of letting you ask the question multiple times if you can’t hear the answer during the first pass. Therefore, if I am limited to clips vs question selection I would take the latter.
There are, however, more options for dialogues than these. In Obsidian, you encountered characters as faces on screens. You needed a permit approved and they could see that you had a permit and once you got there attention they each instructed you what to do with it . If you had to go back they knew that you had been there before and sometimes lost patience with you for not understanding the first time. It was all highly entertaining as you went back and forth trying to figure out how to complete the task.
Dialogue in some of the oldest games was much more refined and interactive. In the Return to Zork you didn’t interact with specific questions but with emotions (angry, thoughtful, bored, etc) but you couldn’t use these emotions indiscriminately. If you got snorty with the witch, you died! You could also show characters the pictures you had taken along the way to get comments. The right picture with the right character produced added dialogue and even inventory items. Frequently the dialogue was actually the puzzle. When you had to get Booze’s keys, you had to go through a specific traditional toast in the right order and ask at the right point. I won’t go into the details but dialogue was so much more than simple communication.
I might like dialogue more if it were as creatively interactive as it was in some of these old games.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 6:57pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Forgot to mention one additional option that makes pre-scripted dialog scenes far more user friendly. The pause button to go along with the skip ahead button. As mentioned above, in-game journals also help eliminate the need to rewatch the same scene. In all cases though, quality of writing and voice acting can make or break any type of dialog.
Cheers, Terry
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 10:11pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I don't mind ether way. Dialoge gives a way to branch to different parts of the game or make certain decisions to control how the game plays out. They are an important part of AG's. Cut scenes are nice too but they are only something to look at.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 10:28pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | To me, the best (though still quite flawed) implementation of NPC conversation comes from Return to Zork. "He's not going to talk about that game again, is he?" I hear the peanut gallery cry helplessly, but it's true: in Return to Zork, the direction of conversation was almost entirely at the discretion of the player.
The trouble with analysing RTZ, however, is that there were two different forms of conversation: chit-chat, and interrogation. Chit-chat was mostly worthless: NPCs started talking, and the player could choose from a half-dozen different moods to adopt, which would steer the conversation along a different path at predefined points. Chit-chat was often key to getting ahead in the game, but it was so simplistic and grouchy that I can't even for a moment hold it up as a good implementation of NPC conversation in an adventure game.
Interrogation, however, was a completely different, beautiful beast. As the player moved through the Great Underground Empire, places they visit would be drawn in on their map, and any conversation they initiate is recorded on their tape recorded. The adventurer is also expected to pick up a multitude of items, and he or she may also snap pictures of most locations, people, and a number of objects.
If a character has the time, they'll let you ask them about whatever you like. Thus, the game allows you, via a purely graphical interface, to ask characters about anywhere you've been, anything you've picked up, anything you've taken a picture of, and anything anyone else has ever said. Now that's conversation!
You can't kill someone in a studio.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 10:54pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5536
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I'll take the cut scene if I'm going to have to click on every dialogue option otherwise. Though I'd rather have control over the dialogue choices if it's any good or even just has some variety.
|
| 28 MAY 2008 at 11:35pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Same here Andromus. If the player has some real choices and at least gets the sense of participating in a true conversation, I'd prefer to control the dialog sequence. If however, it is as described (a long, boring, tedious, purely linear exercise in mouse clicking), just give me a cutscene. But also give me some control of that scene for skipping / pausing as well as a journal that records important info.
Cheers, Terry
|
| 29 MAY 2008 at 2:00pm |
| Deleted User | Seeing that you so love talking about 'Return to Zork', JKing, I shall give you an excuse to talk about it even more.
I've got the game, and would love to try it out, but have been procrastinating because I presumed it's a DOS game, (which should theoretically enable me to run it in Dosbox, I know).
However, I find Dosbox a schlep to get going, and don't want to go to the trouble of trying if it's not going to work in there? I'll take this q to the Technical section if you like.
|
| 29 MAY 2008 at 2:06pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (29 MAY 2008 2:00pm)
Seeing that you so love talking about 'Return to Zork', JKing, I shall give you an excuse to talk about it even more.
How wonderfully accomodating of you!
I've got the game, and would love to try it out, but have been procrastinating because I presumed it's a DOS game, (which should theoretically enable me to run it in Dosbox, I know).
However, I find Dosbox a schlep to get going, and don't want to go to the trouble of trying if it's not going to work in there? I'll take this q to the Technical section if you like.
As I recall (memory hazy; certainty impossible) the game runs well enough in DOSBox, but the installer does not (go figure). However, the game's engine has recently been added to ScummVM, which takes 90% of the hassle away. Unfortunately the engine is far from finished (CD audio tracks don't yet play, for one thing), so my recommendation would be to wait for now.
You can't kill someone in a studio.
|
| 29 MAY 2008 at 2:19pm |
ShanyGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 19 JUN 2003
Status : Online | I prefer a dialogue tree. I don't mind clicking through topics, and in a dialogue I can usually pause in between questions (though some games let you pause everywhere including cutscenes) and skip lines I'm not interested in hearing. In some games I can also listen to a certain topic more than once so if it was important/interesting/funny I can hear it again.
Another reason not to have a large number of cutscenes is that a cutscene should be meaningful. It makes the player let go of the mouse and pay attention. It could be a reward for solving a puzzle, or a dramatic plot twist, but either way the experience would cheapen if you had one every time you talked to someone.
|
| 29 MAY 2008 at 2:53pm |
MaumPrivate Detective
Posts : 592
Joined: 2 JUN 2007
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I'm with Shany.
Not to mention a long conversation can make for a pretty boring cutscene.
Most dialogue trees allow you to speed up the convo, so if you want to sit back and watch it happen (a la cutscene) you can, but if you'd you rather speed up you just click along.
The other problem with having cutscenes dialogues is that if you accidentally click on the wrong button, you miss the whole thing. Rather annoying.
Currently playing: Dragon Age Origins, Darkness Within 2, The Witcher, Fallout 3
|
| 29 MAY 2008 at 4:07pm |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By JKing (28 MAY 2008 10:28pm)
To me, the best (though still quite flawed) implementation of NPC conversation comes from Return to Zork. "He's not going to talk about that game again, is he?" I hear the peanut gallery cry helplessly, but it's true: in Return to Zork, the direction of conversation was almost entirely at the discretion of the player.
The trouble with analysing RTZ, however, is that there were two different forms of conversation: chit-chat, and interrogation. Chit-chat was mostly worthless: NPCs started talking, and the player could choose from a half-dozen different moods to adopt, which would steer the conversation along a different path at predefined points. Chit-chat was often key to getting ahead in the game, but it was so simplistic and grouchy that I can't even for a moment hold it up as a good implementation of NPC conversation in an adventure game.
Interrogation, however, was a completely different, beautiful beast. As the player moved through the Great Underground Empire, places they visit would be drawn in on their map, and any conversation they initiate is recorded on their tape recorded. The adventurer is also expected to pick up a multitude of items, and he or she may also snap pictures of most locations, people, and a number of objects.
If a character has the time, they'll let you ask them about whatever you like. Thus, the game allows you, via a purely graphical interface, to ask characters about anywhere you've been, anything you've picked up, anything you've taken a picture of, and anything anyone else has ever said. Now that's conversation!
I liked Zork's method save for one glaring problem - we had to have the same conversation 3 or 4 times just to get every response (and if you miss certain responses you couldn't continue).
|
| 29 MAY 2008 at 4:18pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By JKing (29 MAY 2008 2:06pm)
As I recall (memory hazy; certainty impossible) the game runs well enough in DOSBox, but the installer does not (go figure). However, the game's engine has recently been added to ScummVM, which takes 90% of the hassle away. Unfortunately the engine is far from finished (CD audio tracks don't yet play, for one thing), so my recommendation would be to wait for now.
Ahh! I knew there was a reason why I shied away from trying the game again! I vaguely remember now that I had tried it in Dosbox, but had come to some grief with it.
Well, thanks for the info!
|
