| 26 MAY 2008 at 5:06pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | I am with Lucien here, I want it all I would go crazy if I had to absolutely choose between dialog-heavy, story-driven adventures which I like the most (and, all due respect to the topic starter, I don't think that my enjoyment of these games is something I need to justify) and myst-like exploratory puzzlers, which I am better at solving and give me an immense sense of satisfaction when I figure them out. There hasn't been games that combine both in a long while, I regard Take Two's Ripper and The Black Dahlia as such, but I think they erred on the side of frustrating difficulty...
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 5:16pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (26 MAY 2008 1:42pm)
Originally Posted By pavel4444 (26 MAY 2008 5:08am)
What really bores me is reading boring long winded hand written journals in the games. If they put that stuff in the game at least make the voice actor read it, I don't want to hurt my eyes and waste my time trying to figure out some bad hand writing.
I agree with you on the first part here. Pages upon pages of text in a book is another one of those things that cause me to let out a long sigh. I don't mind the reading, but give it to me in small doses and only give me the important stuff. I have exploring to do dammit, but PLEASE don't let the character read it out loud. That would probably be even worse!
I agree with Pavel4444 on one point -- I don't like reading long handwritten journals.
I don't mind so much if they're printed in an easy-to-read font. I've noticed some newer games show the text of handwritten journals in a printed form when you hover the mouse over the text, which seems to be a compromise.
I did enjoy reading the short stories in the books in Jonathan Boakes' games. Sometimes they contained clues, and other times I think they were just there to help flesh out the gameworld. I agree with Traveler and JKing that being able to pick books off a bookshelf and read them adds to the interactivity.
Originally Posted By TheTraveler (26 MAY 2008 6:44am)
If I want pure puzzles, there's a lot of puzzle gaming software out there, consisting of pure puzzles, and I often do play these pure puzzle 'games'. I can't help wondering why people who don't like stories, don't just rather go for those, as there really are tons and tons of them on the market.
Really? Where? I see plenty of what's "called" puzzle games on Big Fish, but most are timed and/or dexterity "puzzles." Or they are the same puzzle over and over, like 160 different Sudoku puzzles or 200 different crossword puzzles. I don't see many that have the puzzle variety of adventure games, and the ones I do see are mostly old games. Games like Jewels of the Oracle and the latest Safecracker, which have a variety of puzzles and don't burden you with time pressure, seem to be very rare.
Originally Posted By Caroline (25 MAY 2008 10:41pm)
Roughly speaking adventure gamers fall into two camps. Those who regard these games as interactive books and get a kick out of dialogue and those who are only there for the challenge, the puzzles, the exploration and couldn't give a brass razoo about chatting to the natives - unless it's totally pertinent to the puzzle solving.
It sure seems like it sometimes, but that may just be because the people who strongly prefer one type are more vocal about their preferences. For myself, I'm happy with either type -- as long as it's well done. But it seems to be too much to ask to have both both interesting puzzles and an absorbing story with well-voiced, interesting characters.
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 5:28pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (26 MAY 2008 5:05pm)
I am with Lucien here, I want it all I would go crazy if I had to absolutely choose between dialog-heavy, story-driven adventures which I like the most (and, all due respect to the topic starter, I don't think that my enjoyment of these games is something I need to justify) and myst-like exploratory puzzlers, which I am better at solving and give me an immense sense of satisfaction when I figure them out. There hasn't been games that combine both in a long while, I regard Take Two's Ripper and The Black Dahlia as such, but I think they erred on the side of frustrating difficulty...
I too agree that a wide variety of AG types is much more fun than just a single style. I also adore titles that combine the best of several categories and/or genres.
For pure PC AGs that tried some all-new things, the last great one IMO was GK3. But it stopped short of being a true hybrid like Omikron and Anachronox. Those two also merged a number of very good RPG elements with story-based quest adventuring and enough puzzle solving to provide some real challenge. Neither however was perfect and I'd love to see many more refinements in different settings and added options for even harder puzzles.
To me, the perfect AG would take the very best of those earlier attempts to marry full 3D with artful storytelling, solid plotting / pacing, character interaction / dialog, non-linear exploration, secret areas, clue-finding, puzzles, role playing, light combat, etc. and take them all to a seamless new level.
Cheers, Terry
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 6:22pm |
KarstenSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 347
Joined: 23 SEP 2006
Location: DK
Status : Offline | I like dialogue in my adventure games in my rpg games as well as long as the dialogue fits well into the story and help bring the story forward. Dialogue in adventure games should, imo, also be used to describe the main characters (and other characters) i.e. how and why they behave like they do. The puzzles in adventure games should, imo, also advance the story for the most part.
I don't mind some puzzles that doesn't do this or some puzzles that is a bit silly; if the story is good or the setting is sort of weird, but intriguing, then I'll keep playing.
I don't know if if its correct to say that the commity is split between the puzzle solvers and the story/dialogue adventure gamers. I find that it is more a question of me liking one type of games and other people more liking another type of games. And the people seem to respect what other people like in adventure games more than in say in the rpg world or the action game world. A split to me means that the people who like puzzles call the other people who like story etc. "stupid". Not so, in my experience, is it in the adventure game community. People respect other people's likes and dislikes and also respect that not all games are for everyone - maybe because the people playing adventure games typically are older folks ? with more life experience ?
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 6:45pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
True there are people who only like one type of AG Karsten. But as you know, there are also many of us who enjoy Myst-like, first-person puzzlers and story-driven, third-person quest adventures as well as titles that offer a healthy mix of story / dialog with puzzle solving. Of the latter group, there are also quite a few of us that play RPGs, Action-RPGs, Action-Adventures, and the rare multi-genre hybrids.
So, as always, it just comes down to personal preference. No single game in any one genre or style will ever please everybody. But that's okay because the market is big enough and diverse enough to accommodate all the above types of players.
What's really silly is when people of differing personal tastes actually get into heated arguments over which is better. That's like bickering over which type of popular music, trendy fashion or fast food is better than another. Fact is they appeal to different people in different ways and those people often change over time.
It's not valid either to debate the relative worth of game attributes like educational value because many people prefer to clearly separate work / study from recreational playtime. There's also nothing wrong with combining them if that floats your boat. So again, subjectivity / personal preference overrides all else in these matters.
Cheers, Terry
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 6:52pm |
SusanGuild Master
Posts : 5485
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: 0
Status : Offline | If the game I'm playing is a mystery and the dialogue is going to further the clues or help me determine who's guilty, then I don't mind a lot of dialogue. I have a tendency to want to hear/know everything, though, so even if something is optional, I'll probably still listen to it, because it's part of playing the game as a whole.
Journals are nice and can help the player understand the character(s) a bit more, but they do have their limit. I went crazy in Myst 4's Tomahna because you had Atrus', Catherine's and Yeesha's journals which went on for pages and pages. Then, you visited the rest of the lands and each of those had 1-2 journals each. Oy.
I miss my Bubba: 1986 - 2006.
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 8:33pm |
| Deleted User | ~ Susan ~~ ... Journals are nice and can help the player understand the character(s) a bit more, but they do have their limit.
They can also have the opposite effect... i.e. flummox the player.
As I said before, I'm personally bored by written stuff on my monitor screen (it's OK on Forums but a pain in the neck for me inside games where I want movement & progress & travel & adventure... not a lot of FICTIONAL "facts" !)
So people like me (however many there are ... or aren't) skim over these textual documents as fast as possible and in so doing are liable to miss a vital clue for progress in the future... thus they sometimes act not as a help but a hindrance ! !
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 8:34pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | For me it's quite simple, really. If the story, writing, characters and voice acting are good, give me tons of dialog and I'll never get bored. Even the Longest Journey was not too much for me. But if one of the above is not to my liking, I get fed up after the first couple of phrases.
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 9:17pm |
| Deleted User | ~~ Alkis ~~... For me it's quite simple, really. If the story, writing, characters and voice acting are good, give me tons of dialog and I'll never get bored. Even the Longest Journey was not too much for me.
Switching again (somewhat off-topic) to embedded documents rather than dialogs -----
I played TLJ about 8 years ago and hence I don't remember details... but I DO remember with considerable dislike, the pretty long documents outlining the totally fictitious history &/or habits of the 2 worlds. These bored me stiff!
If they had been the REAL histories and cultures of say the Roman or Greek worlds-empires, at least I would have felt that the time spent ploughing through the boredom would have 'given' me something !!
Interesting to note that AFAIK, Ragnar has not included a single lengthy document in his 'sequel' Dreamfall: The Longest Journey.
I wonder if many people expressed feelings similar to mine ??
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| 26 MAY 2008 at 11:36pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | See, Len hates reading fictional history in games like I do. But when I played S.P.Q.R. I read every word avidly because it was all about ancient Rome. Okay there were five fictional characters' journals to read as well but it was interesting. Actually, now I remember one of them lost a child and I cried.
So I'm not totally incapable of being seduced into reading reams of stuff but it happens only rarely.
And to those who say they want everything - how often do you find such a game? I think I'm time poor and that contributes to my impatience.
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 12:18am |
| Deleted User | I'm too busy to
think of something
clever to say
Posts: 4632 Re: For those who like dialogs
Reply #35 - Today at 7:35pm See, Len hates reading fictional history in games like I do. But when I played S.P.Q.R. I read every word avidly because it was all about ancient Rome.
I certainly agree Caroline.
There is so very much I don't know about THIS REAL world and time is limited... so I'm certainly prepared to read [ & learn something(s) ] about the history, geography, literature, customs of our actual world ... but I have neither the time, energy, or interest, in being fed with a load of details about purely fictitious worlds which are merely the product of somebody's imagination !!
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 12:44am |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Caroline (26 MAY 2008 11:36pm)
And to those who say they want everything - how often do you find such a game? I think I'm time poor and that contributes to my impatience.
By playing a wide range of AGs in all styles as well as select RPGs, etc., it really helps open up the possibility of discovering those rare gems that combine the best of several worlds Caroline.
For instance, if I had never expanded into RPG hybrids, I would have missed out on Omikron, Anachronox, Deus Ex, and a few other all-time favorites. I'd have missed Planescape:Torment and numerous other great (pure) RPGs too. That's because once you're hooked on the genre you just can't seem to get enough and there really are many to choose from.
Of course, you have to be willing get into tactical combat / party management, stealth, and a number of additional gameplay elements in order to enjoy that type of game. But they are generally all story-driven with better than average writing, good dialog, excellent atmosphere, diverse settings, loads of exploration, and varying degrees of puzzle solving. The latter also comes in a huge array of styles from typical AG fare (inventory-based, riddles, mysteries, and mechanical puzzles) to long, meandering quests that combine all those components plus stealth, combat, diplomacy, etc.
Some also include a lot of optional backstory material, in-game journals, books, secondary character dialog, and more. But that stuff usually does not impact the main story / plot in any meaningful way. So you can ignore it 99% of the time and still be fine. The better designers are also very careful to let you know which quests are critical and which characters are key. They are not all spelled out for you at the beginning though, so you must explore, observe, and experience the game world with more than a cursory glance. Beyond that. if you care to dig deeper, there is a great deal more to uncover.
Cheers, Terry
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 9:36am |
JelenaPrivate Detective
Posts : 587
Joined: 30 SEP 2007
Status : Offline | I'm one of those who enjoys both dialogues and a lot of reading in games. As long as it contributes to the story and the characters I'm all for it. To have the protagonist only say the most essential when meeting another person would be kind of unreal and 7/9-ish imho.
Still when playing The Lost Crown I have an issue on how the dialogues are performed. The actors speak really slowly and I feel myself getting impatient wanting to speed things up. I'd like to be able to push the space bar (or any other key) to skip the dialogue when I've read it (using subtitles), but that option doesn't seem to be available.
Temporary guest in your life.
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 10:47am |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | And to those who say they want everything - how often do you find such a game?
Which affects the fact that those are my favorite kind of games how exactly? Besides, one of the most basic laws of economics is that scarcity adds to the value.
And just as Terry said, finding a game that "has it all" is rare only if you confine yourself to traditional adventure games. You should play Anachronox, Planescape Torment, Deus Ex, Thief 1+2, System Shock 2, Psychonauts, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., and The Witcher at the very least to have an informed opinion on game design that aspires to combine the best elements of storytelling and gameplay...
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 11:26am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Hey what is this? Stick pins in Caroline day? :-/
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 11:47am |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Of course not. It's stick pins in Caroline week, and we've already let Monday go to waste . We'll do better from now on, promise [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif].
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 1:16pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (27 MAY 2008 12:44am)
By playing a wide range of AGs in all styles as well as select RPGs, etc., it really helps open up the possibility of discovering those rare gems that combine the best of several worlds Caroline.
Amen to that. There are a lot of elements that can easily be crossbred into AGs to add a bit more flare to them. Sadly, some purists might balk at it, but hey, they want MK27 and GK 32 so point in trying to please them.
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 2:51pm |
papillonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 340
Joined: 3 JUL 2003
Status : Online | Considering that I wrote a seriously text-heavy adventure game (Fatal Hearts) it's not a surprise that I'm pro-text and pro-conversation.
However.
I do not see the point of branching conversations where you're expected/required to ask every question and explore every branch. This is just wasting my time. If I have to read all of it anyway, why are you bothering to make me choose the questions?
Especially if there are multiple levels of the branch-tree to navigate. Now, this is forgivable if all the responses are short and entertaining, but... If there's a list of topics I can ask someone about, just give me the whole list and don't make me wind through a maze of sub-topics in order to reach the question I want to ask (at least, once it's unlocked. It's reasonable that you might need to ask about X before you can ask about Y, but if you've EVER asked about X that should make Y available.) Asking people for information is a reasonable way to get clues. And many clues are/shouldbe optional. So you don't HAVE to ask every single available topic... and therefore, it allows meaningful choice on the part of the player and is a gameplay element instead of simply time-wasting.
To an extent this was better done back in the text-input days when you actually could type in 'ask about the candelabra'. Because then it requires some thinking on the player's part to come up with topics to investigate, rather than plowing down a list. It felt more rewarding to get information. Sticking everything in menus not only makes the dialog more brainless but it encourages developers to only write a small number of questions and prevent you from asking what you want to ask. Less work for them, they don't have to come up with clever responses to random questions. But it makes the characters more hollow.
Also, unlike many traditional adventure gamers (and obvious from Fatal Hearts) I am all about the branching plots. Give me MEANINGFUL dialog options. Give me choices to make with consequences. That way, again, the dialog is a gameplay element, not a waste of time.
[url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url]
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| 27 MAY 2008 at 10:02pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I enjoy dialogue if it's well written or funny, or has that something special that grabs me. The problem is that too often these days game dialogue usually isn't much more interesting than having someone read a grocery list or the phone book.
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| 28 MAY 2008 at 1:23pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1317
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Andromus (27 MAY 2008 10:01pm)
The problem is that too often these days game dialogue usually isn't much more interesting than having someone read a grocery list or the phone book.
Well, depends on the someone. I'd gladly [s]watch[/s] listen to Milla Jovovich read the phone book.
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| 28 MAY 2008 at 1:41pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (28 MAY 2008 1:23pm)
Well, depends on the someone. I'd gladly [s]watch[/s] listen to Milla Jovovich read the phone book.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or to vigorously nod my head in agreement!
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 28 MAY 2008 at 5:16pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Good point! Preferably the camera will pan around her as she does!
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| 28 MAY 2008 at 10:27pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (28 MAY 2008 1:23pm)
Originally Posted By Andromus (27 MAY 2008 10:01pm)
The problem is that too often these days game dialogue usually isn't much more interesting than having someone read a grocery list or the phone book.
Well, depends on the someone. I'd gladly [s]watch[/s] listen to Milla Jovovich read the phone book.
Hmm...you have a definite point there. I would have picked Catherine Zeta Jones myself, but your suggestion is excellent also. I'll take a copy of that as well!
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| 31 MAY 2008 at 11:40pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (26 MAY 2008 1:06pm)
Re: For those who like dialogs
Reply #11 - Today at 1:52am
Pavel444 Quote:
What really bores me is reading boring long winded hand written journals in the games.
InlandAZ Quote:
That makes two of us. (Books are for reading, games are for playing - [smiley=laugh.gif]
And another makes it a very definite three !
An analogy[ch8230] and like all analogies a bit far from the mark probably :-
In a computer game the 2 most important things I enjoy (plenty of [ch8216]subsidiaries[ch8217]) are ideally :-
A darned good gripping story (serious or humorous) :
Some good puzzles (not too hard & not too easy):
On the not too frequent times I watch a good drama or comedy on TV, and on the rare occasions in the cinema, I also enjoy a good gripping story (but of course no puzzles !).
The big difference being that in (good) games I am interacting which I always find much more enjoyable than just sitting and watching a film, however good it is.
In 3/4s of a century of film watching I cannot remember either in the cinema or on TV, a single instance where static pages & pages of some letter, journal, diary, document, whatever are screened for my reading !
Why is this necessary in games ? In any case I don[ch8217]t find it comfortable reading (often several or even many) pages on a monitor[ch8230] I much prefer hard copy of some sort. And when it[ch8217]s composed in some ersatz [ch8216]handwriting[ch8217] or other small script, it[ch8217]s even more irritating, boring & frustrating [ch8230] FOR ME !!!
P.S.
I don[ch8217]t take it to extremes. A few words or even lines say scribbled on a letter or printed, are OK; but not the pages you so often get in some games --- frequently describing the history &/or background of some fictitious world[ch8230] or the details & geography of some location !!
I agree on that as well. I find it very hard to read some hand written text as well and have missed things because I read it wrong.
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