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| 27 OCT 2002 at 5:19pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | As Laura said, it all comes down to what adventures mean to each one of us. I also play adventures for the stories. I don't play them for the puzzles. In my opinion the puzzles are just there serving as a medium for progressing the story. They are important but I'm not playing for their sake.
I think it also depends how much time somebody wants to spend with a game. When I was younger I could play 4-6 hours straight. Now I can't do that anymore, I don't have the time for it. So I might play max 2-3 hours straight. When a puzzle takes me hours to solve then I don't get much of entertainment.
That is why I really enjoyed Syberia as well as GK2,3 and TLJ. They all had stories that make you go wow. They all include memorable and feeling-awakening moments. They don't focus your thinking on how you are going to turn 5-6 tiles so they form a picture, but instead they make you think about all the sub-plots, what is going to happen in the end, and about all the mysteries that get uncovered one by one till the end.
I am not saying that puzzles are bad, I actually have enjoyed solving puzzles, but mostly when they had to do sth with the story and when I had a clue what was asked from me.
I will quote something that you said Laura in your review and I think was really representing my thoughts also about the game.
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I recommend making this game an experience rather than a challenge or a project. I think that if this is played with a clock and a dedication for "beating the game" you will surely miss much wonder, enjoyment and perhaps even the point of the story. For this is indeed a tale of the journey being the message rather than the destination.
*******************************************
I will tell you one thing...I will be looking forward to more of your reviews because we share the same opinion about what an experience with an adventure game should be like.
I also don't understand why a few people are obsessed with undermining Syberia's value. It was never praised as a good puzzle adventure. It was praised as an adventure for its story. You have the right not to like it but all the people that did have the right to praise it.
I personally hope that we are going to see more adventure games like Syberia based on story development and on memorable events/characters.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 5:21pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (27 OCT 2002 11:37am)
I think if the thread had a name 'my opinion about syberia', and didn't include the 'monkey' and the 'they have no idea about adventures' part then it would have been accepted in a different way.
A word of advice Dimitris: unless someone starts calling you names, never EVER take anything written in an online forum personally. Getting too excited isn't healthy
I forgot my sig.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 5:30pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (27 OCT 2002 5:19pm)
I also don't understand why a few people are obsessed with undermining Syberia's value. It was never praised as a good puzzle adventure. It was praised as an adventure for its story. You have the right not to like it but all the people that did have the right to praise it.
I don't think anyone here is obsessed (unless you are ). If "everyone" is praising or dissing something (be it an adventure or something else) and your opinion is radically different, why not express that different opinion? In fact I can understand that in such situation some people are compelled to voice a dissenting opinion. If everyone liked the same stuff, life would be very boring you know
Nobody is trying to deny you (or anyone else) the right to praise Syberia. And you shouldn't deny others the right to disagree with you.
I forgot my sig.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 5:32pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | He said later that he was talking more about the reviewers but even so, he had no right to do that.
In my opinion somebody cannot just declare him/herself the expert on adventures and tell the rest what is an adventure or what is not, no matter how many years he/she has played adventures. This is an arrogant behaviour and so it is treated like one.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 5:32pm |
gatorlawSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 377
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Not that I would want to add silliness to any posting spree
But since self-proclaimed mesaniacal overlords seem to be a modern day reality and only Magma42 has come forth to fill this void in our midst - I have decided to swear early allegiance to the new game overlord - Hail Magma42
Laura *maneuvering for most favored minion status in the new world order*
http://www.culpainnata.com&&&&Perfect world, or perfect nightmare?
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 5:45pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (27 OCT 2002 5:31pm)
He said later that he was talking more about the reviewers but even so, he had no right to do that.
Oh yes, he had full right to do that. And you had full right not to listen, or disagree.
In my opinion somebody cannot just declare him/herself the expert on adventures and tell the rest what is an adventure or what is not, no matter how many years he/she has played adventures. This is an arrogant behaviour and so it is treated like one.
So you haven't declared yourself an expert on adventures at all, now have you? C'mon, you're just as opinionated as Rael. And so am I probably, there's nothing wrong with that.
I forgot my sig.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 6:25pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Wow, just got up from a little nap and readed some very interesting posts. Nice logic, Magma
I totally agree with MichalN and I think we have enough knowledge of adventure games to criticize one of them.
Of course i'd never claim Syberia is the best adv EVER... but you nearly (or maybe solely) said it's the worst EVER... and there's a HUUUUGE difference between those two
Nope, I didn't say that; just that it was mediocre in an absolute comparison.
Now, I think a really good adventure game is a marriage of story and puzzles. I always liked adventures and they became my favorite genre because they stimulate my mind. I love when I find a puzzle that challenges me. When its well implemented, it *enhances* the story. If I want a nice story I can go and watch a movie.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 6:49pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I haven't played Syberia, but these posts have been very interesting. I've got a question, though...
If the puzzles were simple, and there was very little interaction, what is there for the player to actually do in this game other than walk around and perform easy to work-out tasks? If the game had been one long cutscene, would there have been much difference?
Alright, so that's two questions. Sue me.
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 7:04pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Why not play it and decide for yourself? Although, be careful what comments you post afterwards.
If you do Post - Just remember...
1.) Your opinion is always right.
2.) If a single person disagrees - they're the fool.
3.) If more than one disagree - post, post, and post again (you have to justify your position and convince each of them that it's futile to resist).
Nah none of that - it's just a game... Some are going to like it, others aren't. Play it and make up your own mind.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 9:09pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Thank you InlandAZ,
It is just a game, one of many, play it and enjoy it.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 9:19pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | to Nellie...
I don't think Syberia is so easy. There are a lot of people that said they have used walkthroughs, a lot of people go to the syberia forum and posts questions on places that they are stuck and my friend who is helping me build the club downloaded the demo and asked me for some help.
It is just that it is not the brain-buster that some people are looking for. And since it got very good grades and comments from the press and it has been selling quite good they are complaining about it. And by exaggerating they make it seem like there is a button on the lower right corner of the screen that says proceed and you just click on it and the game goes on. But that is not exactly the way it is.
That's all actually. I agree with InlandAZ, the best thing you can do is to play it yourself. Either buy it or download the demo and see what you think of it.
But judging from your taste as I think it is (according to your previous posts talking about interactivity) it seems like you are not going to enjoy it either. As I said....if you play games for stories, you'll love it. If you play games for puzzles you will hate it. It all depends on your taste as in any game. Tell me one simple game that everybody liked, if there is one.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 11:14pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Nope, I didn't say that; just that it was mediocre in an absolute comparison
the way you attacked the game at first made it look that way... in your later posts you cleared your views out
It is just that it is not the brain-buster that some people are looking for. And since it got very good grades and comments from the press and it has been selling quite good they are complaining about it. And by exaggerating they make it seem like there is a button on the lower right corner of the screen that says proceed and you just click on it and the game goes on. But that is not exactly the way it is
personally i don't like those puzzle-infested advs like myst and riven... i want the game to have a story and to give you the chance to walk around, take and use objects, talk to ppl and of course solve some puzzles... but imo Syberia was not easy only to ppl who are after "brain-busters"... keep in mind that Syberia, due to its vast promotion, was also played but ppl who have no experience in advs (i've talked with a few about this game in another board) or even ppl who Syberia was their first adv ever (or maybe second after TLJ)... now these ppl will sure get stuck at some points (especially at the coctail scene) that more experienced adventurers would solve without even thinking
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 11:16pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Nellie (27 OCT 2002 6:48pm)
If the puzzles were simple, and there was very little interaction, what is there for the player to actually do in this game other than walk around and perform easy to work-out tasks?
Well, there is an awful lot of walking around. In one location (Barrockstadt), I counted that the character (Kate Walker) has to get through eighteen (that's 18!) screens to get from certain location to another. Since the best she can do is kind of jog along, it takes quite a while for her to get from A to B. So yes, walking around takes up significant portion of play time. Bad design if you ask me. This was the only thing that I strongly disliked about Syberia.
But there's more than just walking around. There are some fairly lengthy dialogues - which some people like, and some don't. And the puzzles aren't super easy, but they aren't difficult either. I myself got slightly stuck about twice. In both cases it was because I simply overlooked something. The puzzles are quite easy unless you overlook all the clues.
If the game had been one long cutscene, would there have been much difference?
Yes. It would've been a movie. And then completely different criteria would have applied
I forgot my sig.
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| 27 OCT 2002 at 11:26pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (27 OCT 2002 11:13pm)
now these ppl will sure get stuck at some points (especially at the coctail scene) that more experienced adventurers would solve without even thinking
Guess I must be an old hand then. My only "problem" with this puzzle was remembering which ingredients go into the cocktail (my short-term memory sucks). Other than that, there was no ambiguity. And [SPOILER AHEAD!] things like melting the crystallized honey... well, seeing that the honey was crystallized and remembering the hot water bath (which didn't seem to have any purpose), I didn't even try to put the bottle in the cocktail machine without warming it up first
And this is exactly the problem - puzzles that may stump newbies seem childish to experienced players. The veterans are a little too good at picking up clues and putting two and two together Selectable puzzle difficulty (think Monkey Island 2) may be a good solution.
I forgot my sig.
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 12:00am |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Okay - I'm gonna bite here... This puzzle stumped me...
Just were the clues as to which Keys, Switches and Knobs had to be pushed, thrown or pulled in order to make the drink?
It was a long empirical process to get to the end of this one... Either that, or I'm inherently stupid at puzzles.
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 12:12am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Let's see. You got the list of ingredients from the French barman. The ingredients were IIRC vodka, blue curacao, lime, honey and ice. The latter three had fairly clearly marked buttons on the cocktal machine (except honey perhaps). The liquors had to be dispensed through the piano-style keyboard. There was a parchment linking musical notes with drinks. There were seven or so keys, with the possibility to switch between low and high pitch (I don't know the proper musical terms). From the parchment it was pretty clear which one is vodka (low pitch, second key from the left or so) and which one is curacao (high pitch, third from the left). Put in all the ingredients, hit the 'shake' button and Blue Helena is ready. Oh, it helps to turn the coctail machine on before you start. But the on/off button was pretty clearly marked.
Any further questions?
I forgot my sig.
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 1:02am |
bistroSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 240
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Forthwith and verily, truly a can of worms hath been opened here...
OK...so Syberia's puzzles weren't inovative and difficult enough for some...I personally thought they were "just right", even though I would doubt the logic train for a couple of them (or the plot development to justify them may have been a bit weak). BUT, to compare...
*****SPOILER ALERT (For TLJ latecomers like me...)****
The Longest Journey (which I am currently playing for the first time) has been greatly praised by the majority of the folks in this forum. Yep, it's a great game...I'm enjoying it...good plot and great graphics and characters! BUT WHY OH WHY OH WHY would anyone logically figure out that they need to get a rubber duck, clamps and clothes line in order to retrieve a key for a fuse box THAT'S LOCATED CLEAR ACROSS TOWN?? What was it doing in the subway station??Great game, ya'll...but if that's your idea of the kind of puzzles you expect in a "true" adventure game, forget it! At least Myst and, for the most part, Syberia had puzzles that followed some pattern of logic.
Jus' my 2¢...
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 2:58am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | [Whoever hasn't figured out by now that this thread is full of Syberia spoilers has obviously some serious problems ]
Originally Posted By bistro (28 OCT 2002 1:01am)
Forthwith and verily, truly a can of worms hath been opened here...
Okay, you started it
There's one perfectly plausible explanation for the TLJ puzzle: fuse boxes have standardized keys and the key in the subway station was just "a" fuse box key, not necessarily belonging to any particular fuse box. It happened to fit the one across town.
Now let's take a look at some of the "logical" Syberia puzzles. Like opening the Voralberg crypt. OK, the key is hidden in the priest's quarters. That makes sense. But why on Earth do you also have to get to the top of the bell tower and play some loony tune to access the crypt lock? Not even the mad scientist type would design a mechanism like this, simply because it's so bloody inconvenient. If the key is hidden, there's no need to hide the lock.
What's the deal with Oscar boy requiring all the paperwork? Is he supposed to get the train somewhere or to prevent that? Those two tasks are not very compatible.
How come a train winding mechanism is at every place where Kate stops - considering that the train is Hans's "latest invention" and he hadn't been in those places for 20 years or so?
How is it possible that Helena Romanski's greatest admirer does not know where she's been for the last 15 years? When he has all those press clippings and everything?
How come James suddenly can't hear the bell at the end of the pier? Are we supposed to believe that Ms Romanski has to monkey with the bell too when she wants to summon him?
This wasn't a puzzle really but I thought it was mighty odd: when leaving Komkolzgrad on the train, we see the train charging forward and an explosion behind it. That means the train must have broken through the bars. So why the heck was it necessary to mess with dangerous explosives? Why not just break through the bars right away?
Probably the stupidest puzzle is the bandstand door in Barrockstadt. The one with the golden egg and scales. Firstly, every reasonable person would see that simply applying the right amount of pressure (with a hand for instance) is enough to balance the scales and unlock the mechanism. Secondly, how come a random cuckoo egg from across town fits perfectly?
Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not trying to "bury" Syberia. Just pointing out that many of the puzzles weren't terribly logical. I don't think Syberia was any worse than most games in this respect. I'm not sure I really have anything against illogical puzzles anyway.
I forgot my sig.
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 3:59am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Hey MichalN, I think you're my new best pal
Now you understand why I was so annoyed by Syberia? I expect a game to be a bit consistent (thats just me) but almost all the puzzles seemed out of place in Syberia. They seemed so "forced" that they took away all the charm the game could have had.
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 6:22am |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | What a cop out - :
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 10:03am |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Ok this is just getting more and more immature.... tell me any adventure that you praise and you think was great and I will tell you illogical puzzles in them that didn't make sense (as long as I have already played it).
There is NO adventure game where all the puzzles made sense. Adventures are not real life, you have to understand that. Now if you didn't like a game you can definitely try to undermine it with pinpointing some illogical puzzles, but this I can do with any adventure.
The most important part is where the puzzles were difficult to figure out. If they were not then they don't become a hidrance to the game and the story.
Syberia did an excellent job in puzzles. They didn't get you stuck for hours. Why should adventure games be only for the 'elite' that can spend hours trying to solve a puzzle. By doing something like that, you get less and less sales, hence less and less adventure games, hence one day they are going to be extincted. Most people when they are playing games they are looking for entertainment. Being stuck is not entertainment...being stuck is torture.
If you think that this is only me who has this idea, go and see the poll that just adventure is doing and see which game is the most expected for 2003, and bear in mind that Sam n Max, Full throttle, and broken sword have a heavy history in adventure games and a lot of fans.
In my opinion microids is following the best strategy to bring adventures back in the forefront of gaming. Interesting stories, easy puzzles so that the game does not become irritating, and lots lots lots of promotion. That is how adventure games sales are going to top again.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 11:20am |
InieJourneyman
Posts : 856
Joined: 27 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Any computergame SHOULD be entertaining. Syberia surely was untill the end. I'm still quite annoyed how easy and unexpectedly everything ended. I was just getting into the story when miss Walker was running for a train to catch a new life's destination. I was hoping for a lot more adventures (and, I'll be honest, mammoths).
The story was compelling, though. For me, that is one of the major attractions of a game. If I get hooked on the story, a lot of things (even technical) may go wrong, I still want to know how it ends.
I think the adventure market needs games like Syberia. Games like this can entice new gamers to start playing adventuregames. And with a bigger marketshare, more adventuregames will be developed.
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 12:56pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | In my opinion microids is following the best strategy to bring adventures back in the forefront of gaming. Interesting stories, easy puzzles so that the game does not become irritating, and lots lots lots of promotion. That is how adventure games sales are going to top again.
Thats a very interesting point, Dimitri. So, basically, Microids made Syberia easy to please a whole new generation of gamers. So, if the new adventure games trend follow Microids' politic, the old-school players have a sour future.
Also, if you want a good example of excellent, clever puzzles masterfuly integrated with the storyline, play the early Infocom games. And they're almost 20 years old...
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| 28 OCT 2002 at 12:59pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Also, I don't think its entertaining to just click thru a story.
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