| 11 FEB 2003 at 10:08pm |
| Deleted User |
But I also do not agree with you that people who pay the full price are being "ripped off".
Betje
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 10:12pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Betje (11 FEB 2003 10:07pm)
But I also do not agree with you that people who pay the full price are being "ripped off".
By the ones who get the illicit copies, not by the publishers.
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 10:29pm |
lakerzPrivate Detective
Posts : 654
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Here are my thoughts about eBay. The seller is taking a risk just by listing an item without the reserve price. I mean, say I had a mint boxed Celtica game still in the shrinkwrap and put it on ebay with a starting bid of $1. For whatever reason, it didn't get much notice, and someone ended up with a winning bid for $1! I'd be scratching my head over it, but hey, that's the risk of doing auctions. They are very unpredictable.
On the other hand, say the game garners immense interest and ends up selling for $1000!!! I certainly wouldn't email the buyer and say hey, you're getting ripped off! Here, just give me $50 and all will be fair and square! With the exception of using the buy it now feature to purposely set a low buy price, I have no way of controlling what people do. Plus, who am I or anyone else to tell people what something is worth to them. Like people are saying, free market.
I think the main disagreement between people is whether or not computer games/video games are collectibles or not. I know many who would say no way. I for one say yes way. There may be no magazine published every month of the year to give updated estimated values for every game made like they do with stamps or baseball cards, but I would imagine something like that down the road possibly. Video games are growing up and people are taking them seriously now as an art form. Art has value, and certain pieces of art do go up in time.
And as far as the thief goes, I do have a problem with that. The seller with the legit original copy of the game has a right to sell it. He/she bought it, they can sell it on ebay or whatever. The thief didn't buy the game. They're making money off selling the cd'r without putting any money into it. MichalN brings up an interesting point by emphasizing a difference between stealing and copying, but regardless that person is making money off selling something that they don't have the right to sell.
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas...
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 12:21am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lagavulin (11 FEB 2003 6:36pm)
Why should collecting/buying Adv games be any different to other "collector items" such as stamps, paintings, Donald Duck Mags and so on.
because there are ppl who just want to PLAY the game... so what happens with those who just want to play the space quests (for example) and don't want to pay $1.000.000.000 because they're "collector's items"? they'll either never play the games, or turn to piracy/warez (since sq is not abdware)
and, Betje, ppl buying a new game may not get ripped off (although this is arguable), but they certainly get ripped off BIG TIME when they have to pay $80, $90, $100 for a USED game
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 12:24am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By lakerz (11 FEB 2003 10:28pm)
Here are my thoughts about eBay. The seller is taking a risk just by listing an item without the reserve price. I mean, say I had a mint boxed Celtica game still in the shrinkwrap and put it on ebay with a starting bid of $1. For whatever reason, it didn't get much notice, and someone ended up with a winning bid for $1! I'd be scratching my head over it, but hey, that's the risk of doing auctions. They are very unpredictable.
i won a very rare vinyl record that way recently... payed only 7 Eur (=$7) for it, although it's definately valued at around 50 Eur!!!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 1:13am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Well, people can argue all they want that some adventure games are not collector's items (like stamps) all they want or agonize over the fact that the process means some players won't get to play the games because they're too expensive, but facts are facts:
Adventure games have become collectors items like it or not just like stamps. There are the easily available ones that sell for less than the original list price and there are the less available ones that go as high as $150 or more. And in the latter category, there are the CDROM-only ones that go for less than an unopened shrinkwrapped box. Like any collectible, these are finite items that will not be released ever again in their original form.
I sympathize with those that may not be able to ever play Celtica, or whatever, but then, I'm never going to sit courtside beside Jack Nicholson to watch the Lakers. I called the Lakers front office and told them this wasn't fair 'cause I couldn't afford the $500. Their response was something to the effect of 'tough-sh*t' buddy, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck can.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 1:19am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2003 1:13am)
I sympathize with those that may not be able to ever play Celtica, or whatever, but then, I'm never going to sit courtside beside Jack Nicholson to watch the Lakers. I called the Lakers front office and told them this wasn't fair 'cause I couldn't afford the $500. Their response was something to the effect of 'tough-sh*t' buddy, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck can.
And that is relevant how exactly? As far as I know, Jack Nicholson can't be copied. Computer games can.
I forgot my sig.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 1:25am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2003 1:13am)
Well, people can argue all they want that some adventure games are not collector's items (like stamps) all they want or agonize over the fact that the process means some players won't get to play the games because they're too expensive, but facts are facts:
i didn't say they're not... i say they shouldn't be... or even better, they should be, in their original boxed versions, but also be available as abdware for ppl who only want to play them... a rare stamp can only be used as a collector's item, noone will need a specific stamp in order to send a letter... the stamp example is way irrelevant
I sympathize with those that may not be able to ever play Celtica, or whatever, but then, I'm never going to sit courtside beside Jack Nicholson to watch the Lakers. I called the Lakers front office and told them this wasn't fair 'cause I couldn't afford the $500. Their response was something to the effect of 'tough-sh*t' buddy, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck can.
and this is even more irrelevant... you can watch the game if you want... you can either watch it as a collector's item (next to jack nicholson) or as an abdware copy (other seats) (or even as a pirate copy on tv!)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 1:43am |
| Deleted User | People collect items (including Adventure Games) because they enjoy doing so, not because their "collection" is, necessarily, worth anything to anyone else, or of much monetary value.
I have thousands of books in my personal "library", all neatly set up under Author's name. If anyone wants to borrow one of them, they have to return them, or else ...... I doubt I will read any of them the second time, but ......
Similarly with my (small) collection of Adventure Games. I can "burn" a copy of the games I have, if necessary, if a friend wants to "try" a game to see whether they like it, but the originals aren't lent out to friends who aren't into Adventure Gaming. I don't want my original game screwed up or "lost".
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:45am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | "And that is relevant how exactly? As far as I know, Jack Nicholson can't be copied. Computer games can. "
Okay, I'll spell it out: The courtside with Jack Nicholson thingy was used as an example as to why it is useless to consider it unfair that certain adventure games have become priced beyond the reach of certain individuals- that's the way a lot of things work in our society.
"a rare stamp can only be used as a collector's item, noone will need a specific stamp in order to send a letter... the stamp example is way irrelevant"
Okay, I'll spell out the relevancy: we're comparing the principle not the items. I mean, c'mon, I lick a stamp but I don't lick the adventure box. Anyway, collectibles are anything that more people want than there are to go around. Besides: A rare stamp can be used as a collectors item and often can be used to send the letter; a shrink-wrapped copy of Celtica can be a collectors item or you can open it and play the game.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:50am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2003 2:45am)
Okay, I'll spell out the relevancy: we're not comparing the principle not the items. I mean, c'mon, I lick a stamp but I don't lick the adventure box. Anyway, collectibles are anything that more people want than there are to go around. And FWIW: A rare stamp can be used as a collectors item and often can be used to send the letter. A shrink-wrapped copy of Celtica can be a collectors item or you can open it and play the game. So what!
NOONE will look for a rare stamp to send an envelope, cause when you send an envelope all stamps are THE SAME... but ppl will look SPECIFICALY for celtica ONLY to play it (cause all games are DIFFERENT), and they don't have to fork out hundreds of $$$ in order to play it just because it's collectible
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:53am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (13 FEB 2003 2:50am)
NOONE will look for a rare stamp to send an envelope, cause when you send an envelope all stamps are THE SAME... but ppl will look SPECIFICALY for celtica ONLY to play it (cause all games are DIFFERENT), and they don't have to fork out hundreds of $$$ in order to play it just because it's collectible
And the point is????
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:59am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2003 2:52am)
And the point is????
the point is that ppl who only want to play a game don't have to go with the insane collector's prices... so when the game is out of print and not abdware they'll probably resort to piracy... and this is not more disapproved of than ppl selling used games for 5x the original price... they are both equaly condemnable >
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 3:03am |
Monsey_JoeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 58
Joined: 2 FEB 2003
Status : Online | It seems to me that copies of discontinued games should have the same status as abandonware i.e. not exactly legal but definitely can't be considered stealing(piracy) if the publishers aren't supporting it.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 4:20am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (13 FEB 2003 2:58am)
the point is that ppl who only want to play a game don't have to go with the insane collector's prices... so when the game is out of print and not abdware they'll probably resort to piracy... and this is not more disapproved of than ppl selling used games for 5x the original price... they are both equaly condemnable >
I can understand why you find the situation frustrating, but I don't see how you can equate the act of piracy with a person selling an item for what it is worth when 'what it is worth' is what buyers are prepared to pay. So, Aya, I guess what I'm trying to find out here, is what is your solution? If you had a boxed copy of Celtica you wanted to sell and knew it had sold on Ebay for $150 how would you sell it and what would you ask for it?
Monsey_Joe said: 'It seems to me that copies of discontinued games should have the same status as abandonware i.e. not exactly legal but definitely can't be considered stealing(piracy) if the publishers aren't supporting it.'
This continues to be a sticky issue. I think the fact is that a lot of us who would never think of pirating copies of games that are still supported by the publisher, would feel differently about accepting a copy of a game (for playing purposes only), that hasn't been on the market for years and the publisher has long since gone out of business.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 12:00pm |
| Deleted User | Well, Aya, I have the perfect solution to your problem.
Which is a pity really, cause you have all the passion and committment of the modern Robin Hood. I can just picture you as the as the Master of the Guild of Game Thieves.
Hint 1: Think outside the game box.
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 12:26pm |
| Deleted User | Hint 2. Think books.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 12:33pm |
| Deleted User | 3. Donate your collection of rare adventure games to your local LIBRARY!
Someone recently mentioned libraries, I immediately checked out the on-line catalogue of my local library, and lo and behold!... they have Celtica.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 1:44pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2003 4:20am)
I can understand why you find the situation frustrating, but I don't see how you can equate the act of piracy with a person selling an item for what it is worth when 'what it is worth' is what buyers are prepared to pay.
wrong... it's not what ALL buyers are prepared to pay...it's what collectors are prepared to pay... the ones who want to play the game are definately not prepared to pay the prices set by the collectors... and what i meant by equating piracy with insane used games prices actually refers to the beginning of the topic... the bashing of a "pirate" while accepting hands down any price for any used game, just because the labels "illegal" and "legal" are stuck on the respective situations... reminds me of cult gatherings... someone saying "to hell with this and praise that" and everyone shouting "to hell with this and praise that", without thinking WHY to hell with the first and praise the second, and - especially - the gray areas between them
So, Aya, I guess what I'm trying to find out here, is what is your solution? If you had a boxed copy of Celtica you wanted to sell and knew it had sold on Ebay for $150 how would you sell it and what would you ask for it?
my solution is stop condemning "piracy" by default (generally - not you personally), before thinking if a piracy act actually hurts a company or not... my previous example "used game that's still produced"/"pirated game that's out of print" says it all... piracy should be condemned when AND ONLY when it hurts a company... Monsey_Joe said it perfectly
This continues to be a sticky issue. I think the fact is that a lot of us who would never think of pirating copies of games that are still supported by the publisher, would feel differently about accepting a copy of a game (for playing purposes only), that hasn't been on the market for years and the publisher has long since gone out of business.
exactly
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 1:48pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (13 FEB 2003 12:00pm)
Well, Aya, I have the perfect solution to your problem.
Which is a pity really, cause you have all the passion and committment of the modern Robin Hood. I can just picture you as the as the Master of the Guild of Game Thieves.
that was a great comment!
Hint 1: Think outside the game box.
meaning?
Hint 2. Think books
books always get rereleased... so you can either be a collector and hunt down the original issues for an INSANE amount of money, or just want to read the book and get a reissue for a NORMAL amount of money
3. Donate your collection of rare adventure games to your local LIBRARY!
don't think i would do that! but i wouldn't sell them anyway... but if a friend asks me for a copy of a game that no longer exists i'd be happy to make him one, to save him the $$$$$$ that he would have to give away to an individual and not the company itself
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:04pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | n Originally Posted By Aya Brea (13 FEB 2003 1:48pm)
books always get rereleased...
Actually... no! BUT (mostly) finding old books is more easy (and cheap) than finding old games.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:06pm |
| Deleted User | Quote:So, Aya, I guess what I'm trying to find out here, is what is your solution? If you had a boxed copy of Celtica you wanted to sell and knew it had sold on Ebay for $150 how would you sell it and what would you ask for it?
my solution is stop condemning "piracy" by default (generally - not you personally), before thinking if a piracy act actually hurts a company or not... my previous example "used game that's still produced"/"pirated game that's out of print" says it all... piracy should be condemned when AND ONLY when it hurts a company... Monsey_Joe said it perfectly
Aya, you're DODGING the issue!
And your comment about "books always getting re-released" is too ridiculous for words!! I'm not going to that. Really!
And you're ignoring what I said about the library being the perfect solution for non-collectors who just want to read a book that has been out of print for years, or play a game that's hard to come by.
And if you don't understand what "thinking outside the game box" means, then you should start thinking outside the box.
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:14pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (13 FEB 2003 2:06pm)
Aya, you're DODGING the issue!
i'm most certainly NOT!!!
And your comment about "books always getting re-released" is too ridiculous for words!! I'm not going to that. Really!
and why is that? don't they get rereleased? they DO... maybe not ALL books, but certainly a big percentage, as opposed to games... books written the previous century are still produced, while games (and popular ones too) of the last decade are out of print and considered RARE and worth $$$$$... FFS!!!... so, if old and rare games were rereleased there would be no problem at all
And you're ignoring what I said about the library being the perfect solution for non-collectors who just want to read a book that has been out of print for years, or play a game that's hard to come by.
i didn't ignore that, got it wrong maybe... yes, it's certainly a great idea if such a library actually opened... do you think it's possible though? i think not (and don't tell me about video clubs that rent games... i'm talking really OLD and RARE stuff here)
And if you don't understand what "thinking outside the game box" means, then you should start thinking outside the box.
well since i still don't understand it, i can't start thinking outside of it!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:15pm |
| Deleted User |
Actually... no! BUT (mostly) finding old books is more easy (and cheap) than finding old games.
Burning a CD is easy. And given the less than optimal quality of scanners, books are still much harder to copy than games, that might have A LOT to do with it. The Gutenberg Project is always looking for volunteers...
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