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| 11 FEB 2003 at 1:54am |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | hell yea....I just say kick em in the balls...they have no sense...
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 2:03am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Well, that is a new one! You've got to admit he/she is ingenious in addition to being dishonest, a thief, a charlatan and a money-grubbing cheat! (And that's his/her good points!) >
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 3:01am |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Was this on ebay, how did they break in?
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 3:14am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I DO hope you reported them to ebay about this.
by the way......WHO is doing this there, the username, I'd like to see what the person has.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 3:18am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | ok i'm going to say smth that will probably cause a lot of hot flaming! :
so you say you were in the process of buying a pretty RARE adv game right? "pretty RARE" makes me think of a "kinda" higher price than the one the game was initially bought for, right? also "pretty RARE" makes me think of a game no longer produced, right? if so, then how come, the person selling the game at such high prices, ie MAKING MONEY out of the game, is considered of so legit, and another person selling a pirate copy is considered a rotten thief that should burn in hell? (and in this case maybe the "legit" seller will be making a lot more money out of the game than the pirate would do - think about it)
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER BEFORE YOU FLAME
this post is ABSOLUTELY NOT condoning piracy... it's just a simple question about how the ways making money out of games can be considered legit or not
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 3:28am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | oh and to add one more thing... i've seen rare games (sierra's collections for example) selling for more than $100 on ebay... even cd-only (original) w/o boxes and manuals... and the buyer is happy about it and the seller has made several $$ out of that game... ebay has been proven to be a goldmine for lots of ppl, all making money hiding behind "legal terms", while noone stops for a minute to think about the profiteering that takes place in there :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 5:49am |
judyannSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 319
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | When I sell my house, I will sell it for substantially more than the developer from whom I bought it. So? I paid HIS price, the house is mine, and I can sell it to whomever I choose for whatever the market will bear and I don't owe the developer a thing.
It is the same thing with any other possession which I morally, legally and ethically own - books, jewelry, cars, and, yes, games. If it increases in value and I sell it for a profit, that's a return on my investment. ON the other hand, if can't even give it away, that's my loss.
But if I steal it, I don't have any right to it in the first place, much less the right to make a profit on it.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 8:59am |
LagavulinPrivate Detective
Posts : 475
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Please mrs/ms A B
a. Aya Brea wrote:
"then how come, the person selling the game at such high prices, ie MAKING MONEY out of the game"
First of all its NOT the seller that put down the final price ITS "the market" that sets the price, and the market are the people out there who are willing to pay a certain price. You are as a "member of the market" NEVER forced to pay anything. So if you should go around blaming anyone for high prices on "rare" items, you will have to focus your anger on "the market"the buyers).
b. She also wrote:
"a pirate copy is considered a rotten thief that should burn in hell?"
YES he/she should! Because they ARE indeed THEIFs. Lets say that DARK FALL (the ind pend developed game) were to be copied by a "Pirate" and sold for ex. $9 and "the word is spread" so that lots of people by it.
The result of such a behavior could lead to NO!!! DARK FALL II. And that is why pirates must be fought. (This was only an example)
c. as well as this:
" (and in this case maybe the "legit" seller will be making a lot more money out of the game than the pirate would do - think about it)"
Yes and so what! If I were to sell my car I would not sell it to the buyer who would offer me the lowest price.
The Pirate should not make ANY MONEY WHAT SO EVER!
And finally I salute you judyann
FOR THE MOMENT I AM PLAYING ON MY Win 7&&&&Recently Played&& ark Fall Lost Souls,Outcry,SH vs A Lupin,Tales of Monkey Island,Still Life 2,Sinking Island,Pandora Directive (RP),The Lost Crown
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 9:12am |
| Deleted User | > This matter should be brought into justice.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 10:34am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Pirates?? But we're in the 21th. century for Christ sake!!
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 12:25pm |
DeadArtIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 1
Joined: 11 FEB 2003
Status : Online | I just got back into adventure games after a huge lapse (7 years to be exact) and I have already purchased four "catch up" games from eBay after ready this board and site.
I'm not sure that I could have found these games anywhere else at such a great deal (less than $20 per game and that includes shipping). Some of the games were new and others were used.
I think eBay offers a wonderful service to consumers. Fortunately I got what I paid for - original copies like new or used once. I would never support a pirate!
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 2:05pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | won't quote individualy cause it's a pain!
so what you're all saying is that since i own (i do!) 6 sierra original collections, which IIRC i bought for around $150-200 in total, if i sell them to ppl who want to play those games and make like $600 of those games it's perfectly alright
yes it's the market that makes those prices, not the sellers, the sellers are just taking advantage of that, that's all
btw i didn't say the pirate is ok and should make money (if you read the disclaimer)... i said some sellers should NOT profiteer like that on the expence of gamers who just want to play a game
final note, since everyone have the terms piracy-illegal, used-legal engraved in their minds... isn't the company's interest that must be considered first? i guess it is... so what would be more damaging to a company (let's say sierra):
1. a pirate copy of KQ5 (no longer produced) (<-illegal)
2. a used copy of half life (still sold) (<-legal)
i'm pretty sure everyone is ok with the latter.... :
so sometimes it helps to think beyond what we're told and take for granted
Disclaimer Again!
i repeat that my posts DO NOT condone piracy (just for those who have problems understanding that)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 2:07pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By DeadArt (11 FEB 2003 12:25pm)
I'm not sure that I could have found these games anywhere else at such a great deal (less than $20 per game and that includes shipping). Some of the games were new and others were used.
THIS is the way it should be... if this was a rule then i wouldn't be writting any of the above... but if you take a look at some games they even sell for more than $100 and that's called profiteering in my book, and i have no problem disaprooving it as much as i disaproove making money from piracy
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 6:21pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (11 FEB 2003 2:07pm)
THIS is the way it should be... if this was a rule then i wouldn't be writting any of the above... but if you take a look at some games they even sell for more than $100 and that's called profiteering in my book, and i have no problem disaprooving it as much as i disaproove making money from piracy
There are a few who have voiced similiar opinions before and it seems that often the very presence of Ebay gets blamed for it. But the practice of selling something at any price that the market will bear is one of the linchpins of a free market and certainly, the whole idea of an auction.
Adventure games selling for over $100 are relatively few, but they simply reflect the fact that there are few of them available compared to the number of people that increasingly want them. So the question becomes, if you had a shrink-wrapped, untouched, copy of a game like Reah, how would you sell it so as not to be 'profiteering'. Would you put it on Ebay and say the first person that gives me $40 gets it? Or would you happily watch as a few bidders fall all over themselves to give you over $100?
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 6:37pm |
LagavulinPrivate Detective
Posts : 475
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online |
IF I had 2 copys of Reah with the conditions above I would probably put it out on eBay and let the winner buy it for the price he or she are are willing to value the game.
Why should collecting/buying Adv games be any different to other "collector items" such as stamps, paintings, Donald Duck Mags and so on.
FOR THE MOMENT I AM PLAYING ON MY Win 7&&&&Recently Played&& ark Fall Lost Souls,Outcry,SH vs A Lupin,Tales of Monkey Island,Still Life 2,Sinking Island,Pandora Directive (RP),The Lost Crown
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 7:22pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lagavulin (11 FEB 2003 6:36pm)
Why should collecting/buying Adv games be any different to other "collector items" such as stamps, paintings, Donald Duck Mags and so on.
Because unlike old stamps, adventure games have intrinsic value. You can play them. A collector's stamp is most likely useless and at any rate easily replaceable. A Donald Duck mug is likewise easily replaceable. Neverhood (to give an example) is not - there is no other game quite like it.
Another problem is that copying of old games is not stealing - it lacks the fundamental characteristic of stealing, ie. depriving the original owner of something. Copying an old game creates something new without removing it from somewhere else. It is apparently a very difficult concept to understand.
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 7:33pm |
LagavulinPrivate Detective
Posts : 475
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Posted by: MichalN
"A collector's stamp is most likely useless and at any rate easily replaceable."
I dont know If you got it wrong or ???
I am not a stamp collector or veteran car collector or whatever, but come on;
EASILY REPLACEABLE I dont think so!!
FOR THE MOMENT I AM PLAYING ON MY Win 7&&&&Recently Played&& ark Fall Lost Souls,Outcry,SH vs A Lupin,Tales of Monkey Island,Still Life 2,Sinking Island,Pandora Directive (RP),The Lost Crown
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 7:53pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lagavulin (11 FEB 2003 7:32pm)
I dont know If you got it wrong or ???
You got it wrong. I was talking about the intrinsic value of a stamp simply as a stamp. You know, the thing you stick on letters to make sure the Post Office is happy Don't tell me that is not easily replaceable.
What I'm saying is that the stamps have their value solely as a collector's item, quite unlike adventure games.
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 8:25pm |
| Deleted User | Another problem is that copying of old games is not stealing - it lacks the fundamental characteristic of stealing, ie. depriving the original owner of something.
Copying old games IS stealing because you do deprive the copyright holder of something: potential buyers.
Betje
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 8:34pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Betje (11 FEB 2003 8:25pm)
Copying old games IS stealing because you do deprive the copyright holder of something: potential buyers.
If they are not actively marketing the game? HOW?
Of course you'd also have to prove that the person who got the illicit copy would have bought the legal game instead had the copy not been available. And this is not the case most of the time.
Sure, the BSA can b*itch all they want about billions in lost profit but that money only ever existed on paper and always will. Those figures aren't real.
If anyone is losing here it's the people who paid the full price for the product. But the publishers, hardly.
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 8:40pm |
LagavulinPrivate Detective
Posts : 475
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online |
I get so calm as soon a person from the "other side"=female) deliver their wisdom among us "cave creatures"=male).
Thanks now I can get back to some real gaming.
Good gaming to all of you!
FOR THE MOMENT I AM PLAYING ON MY Win 7&&&&Recently Played&& ark Fall Lost Souls,Outcry,SH vs A Lupin,Tales of Monkey Island,Still Life 2,Sinking Island,Pandora Directive (RP),The Lost Crown
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 9:07pm |
| Deleted User | If they are not actively marketing the game? HOW?
Why would it matter if they're marketing the game?
It's up to the copyrightholder to determine when and where they re-release a game.
Of course you'd also have to prove that the person who got the illicit copy would have bought the legal game instead had the copy not been available.
No proof needed, I said potential buyers.
And this is not the case most of the time.
Prove it...
Sure, the BSA can b*itch all they want about billions in lost profit but that money only ever existed on paper and always will. Those figures aren't real.
I don't know what the BSA is, but copyrights are very real.
If anyone is losing here it's the people who paid the full price for the product. But the publishers, hardly.
So you're saying that everyone who pays money for a product is a loser compared to the winner who steals it.
Hm... well... I guess we'd better agree to disagree.
Betje
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 9:21pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Betje (11 FEB 2003 9:06pm)
Why would it matter if they're marketing the game? It's up to the copyrightholder to determine when and where they re-release a game.
Hmm... so I guess right now I'm losing tons of money on all the games that I'm not selling? Maybe I should sue someone!
No proof needed, I said potential buyers.
There you have it. Potential, as in not real.
Prove it...
Good point. I can't. Nor can you prove the opposite
I don't know what the BSA is, but copyrights are very real.
BSA = Business Software Alliance, the evil arm of software copyright enforcement And yes, copyrights are very real and very really messed up.
So you're saying that everyone who pays money for a product is a loser compared to the winner who steals it.
No!! "Losing" does not imply "loser"... I hope not. What I'm saying is the people who paid the full price are the ones being ripped off. The ones who are really losing in the economic sense. You said that made them losers, not me
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 FEB 2003 at 9:36pm |
| Deleted User | No!! "Losing" does not imply "loser"... I hope not. What I'm saying is the people who paid the full price are the ones being ripped off. The ones who are really losing in the economic sense. You said that made them losers, not me
I expressed myself badly. In no way did I mean to imply that people who pay the full price are "losers" in society, life etc.
Betje
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