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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:43am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Uh-oh... the Hot Spot is waiting
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:51am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 12:30am)
All you people who are buying used games, are you not doing the same thing as me??
i won't comment on the prices (i'll just say imo they're too high) but i have to say that this is smth that nearly noone understands (and i'm already seeing "stealing cars and selling them used" irrelevant examples coming :)... that buying a used game does THE SAME damage to a company as buying a pirate copy of it (talking about games in print of course)
Summary
when a game is in print, you either buy it new and support the company, or get a used or pirate copy and DON'T support the company
when a game is out of print you can get either a used or a pirate copy and it will make NO difference
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:57am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Actually there isn't any need for flaming on this one. The concept of selling/buying used copies of CDs, games, and DVDs is protected as fair-use by the supreme court no less. Once you buy a copy, it is yours to do with as you see fit, except make copies of it and sell those!
Buying a pirated copy is different than buying an used copy since the pirated version, by definition, is a copy of the game that the publisher originally never got paid for. Implicit in this is the fact that the courts have stipulated that a company has a right to sell and make money off of each copy it sells, but it doesn't have a right to continue to make money on each copy everytime it changes hands.
As far as the cost of games goes, my personal feeling is that adventure game prices are perfectly fair since the market is smaller and I'm just happy they're still being made. As far as the $49.95 price for new Xbox games goes, I have trouble swallowing that although, again, I respect Microsoft's right to go for it. I often just wait until the next version comes out and buy the previous version eg. NHL 2002 for $29.95 or try to find a used version at Gamespot or whatever.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:01am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 12:50am)
Summary
when a game is in print, you either buy it new and support the company, or get a used or pirate copy and DON'T support the company
when a game is out of print you can get either a used or a pirate copy and it will make NO difference
Aya Brea - are you saying that you never buy used games and therefore never steal from developers?
I doubt it and I challenge anyone on this forum to say that they have never bought a game from ebay or some similar site!!
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:03am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (14 FEB 2003 12:43am)
Uh-oh... the Hot Spot is waiting
OOPS!
I realised as soon as I had posted this that it was really a subject for the Hot Spot!
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:15am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 1:01am)
Aya Brea - are you saying that you never buy used games and therefore never steal from developers?
I doubt it and I challenge anyone on this forum to say that they have never bought a game from ebay or some similar site!!
no i didn't say that... but what i do has nothing to do with what's a fact... and i just stated the facts
btw, SirDave, you're just sticking the "legal" "illegal" labels again... i'm talking beyond that
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:22am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 1:15am)
no i didn't say that... but what i do has nothing to do with what's a fact... and i just stated the facts
OK I'm sorry - I will rephrase my question -
Do you agree with the facts you stated?
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:27am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 1:22am)
OK I'm sorry - I will rephrase my question -
Do you agree with the facts you stated?
you mean do i believe they're true? of course i do, otherwise i wouldn't say them
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:28am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 1:15am)
btw, SirDave, you're just sticking the "legal" "illegal" labels again... i'm talking beyond that
Not really!
You said:
"buying a used game does THE SAME damage to a company as buying a pirate copy of it (talking about games in print of course)".
That just isn't true. The company has made its money on the used copy; it hasn't made it on the pirated copy.
The courts have set limits because there has to be guidelines set for the free-market system to work ie. for companies to make a reasonable profit but not make unreasonable restrictions on the use of their product after it sells.
(Hey Aya, this is like our own version of Crossfire! )
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:30am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 1:26am)
you mean do i believe they're true? of course i do, otherwise i wouldn't say them
What I mean is do you agree that buying used games is a form of stealing, and DO YOU buy used games?
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:35am |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Just thought I point out a few things no one has brought up yet.
Buying a used PS2 game from say Gamestop or EB helps Gamestop. Gamestop and EB being healthy and in buisness is.....a bad thing for the devs?
There are people who won't or can't pay 50.00 for a game. If they couldn't buy it used at GameStop or EB they wouldn't buy it at all. Period. No sale. Game remains on shelf. Never happened. How is a game company losing these people's buisness?
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:35am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I'm really sorry but I'd like to know what part of the world most of you live in , because I live in the UK and right now its 2.30am and I really want to go to bed.
The only problem is that this topic has wound me up and people keep replying to it!!
What I really want to say is GO TO BED (if u live in UK), so I can do the same and be able to get up for work in a few hours(even though I am self employed so its up to me!)
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:38am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (14 FEB 2003 1:27am)
That just isn't true. The company has made its money on the used copy; it hasn't made it on the pirated copy.
so here's an interesting question... say i buy game x original, play it and sell it used... then the person who buys it, plays it and sells it used... and say this happens 5 times (so 6 persons in total have played that copy)... now if i bought game x original and made a pirate copy to those 5 persons, what would be the difference to the company?
The courts have set limits because there has to be guidelines set for the free-market system to work ie. for companies to make a reasonable profit but not make unreasonable restrictions on the use of their product after it sells.
you know i don't really care what the courts have said... i go with what i consider most logical or most practical... and to me 5 pirate copies of a game is logically the same to the company as 5 resells of the original copy... and of course (as stated in the other thread) a pirate copy of an out of print game is "legal" (or at least should be)
(Hey Aya, this is like our own version of Crossfire! )
YEAH!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:44am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 1:30am)
What I mean is do you agree that buying used games is a form of stealing, and DO YOU buy used games?
i do consider them a form of stealing (games in print always), the same form of stealing as a pirate copy - meaning you play the game without rewarding the company... and yes i have and will buy a used game if it's sold at a normal price
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:51am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 1:43am)
i do consider them a form of stealing (games in print always), the same form of stealing as a pirate copy - meaning you play the game without rewarding the company... and yes i have and will buy a used game if it's sold at a normal price
In a way the whole subject is a catch-22 situation -
you cant afford to pay £40 for a new game so you buy it used for 1/2 the price -
the software company loses a sale and therefore loses money.
If this happens on a regular basis the company stops producing our favourite games, or they carry on producing them but raise their prices by another £10.
Who is really losing out?
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 1:56am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 1:50am)
In a way the whole subject is a catch-22 situation -
you cant afford to pay £40 for a new game so you buy it used for 1/2 the price -
the software company loses a sale and therefore loses money.
If this happens on a regular basis the company stops producing our favourite games, or they carry on producing them but raise their prices by another £10.
Who is really losing out?
all i have to say is that if games costed $10-$15 there would practically be no piracy and no used games market (only for out of print games)
what i can't understand is this: if a game costs $50, 1 person will buy it, 9 will get a pirate/used copy, so the company will make $50... if it costed $10 9 would buy it, 1 would get a pirate/used copy, so now the company would make $90... why don't the companies see that? or is there a factor i overlook?
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:03am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 1:55am)
what i can't understand is this: if a game costs $50, 1 person will buy it, 9 will get a pirate/used copy, so the company will make $50... if it costed $10 9 would buy it, 1 would get a pirate/used copy, so now the company would make $90... why don't the companies see that? or is there a factor i overlook?
Yes, there is a factor you overlooked and it is called GREED!
It is a fact that software companies do not need to charge that much for a game!!
Aya, I take it u dont live in the same time zone as me - I wish you wouldnt reply with interesting answers, because then I could actually get to bed!
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:07am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 1:38am)
so here's an interesting question... say i buy game x original, play it and sell it used... then the person who buys it, plays it and sells it used... and say this happens 5 times (so 6 persons in total have played that copy)... now if i bought game x original and made a pirate copy to those 5 persons, what would be the difference to the company?
you know i don't really care what the courts have said... i go with what i consider most logical or most practical... and to me 5 pirate copies of a game is logically the same to the company as 5 resells of the original copy... and of course (as stated in the other thread) a pirate copy of an out of print game is "legal" (or at least should be)
You're still not acknowledging that the company made its money off of the original copy and that single copy can be sold, resold 'in ad finitem'. That is simply different than a situation where there are now 5 other pirate copies that the company didn't make money off of.
This is exactly why we have courts, because we live in a world with people who have all sorts of conflicting ideas. If we lived in Aya Brea world, then virtually noone could legally sell their used property. In my world, I can sell anything I bought, paid for, and used and lucky for me the legal system supports it.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:09am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 2:03am)
Yes, there is a factor you overlooked and it is called GREED!
It is a fact that software companies do not need to charge that much for a game!!
yes but in total (if my example stands) they'd make more money if the games were cheaper... and the fact that companies don't see this makes it really weird
Aya, I take it u dont live in the same time zone as me - I wish you wouldnt reply with interesting answers, because then I could actually get to bed!
no i don't live in the same time zone as you... it's 2 hours later here!! but if you REALLY have to go to bed then strike my above answer and make it "i agree"!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:11am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 1:35am)
I'm really sorry but I'd like to know what part of the world most of you live in , because I live in the UK and right now its 2.30am and I really want to go to bed.
The only problem is that this topic has wound me up and people keep replying to it!!
What I really want to say is GO TO BED (if u live in UK), so I can do the same and be able to get up for work in a few hours(even though I am self employed so its up to me!)
That'll teach you to start a Hot Topic!!!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:14am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (14 FEB 2003 2:07am)
You're still not acknowledging that the company made its money off of the original copy and that single copy can be sold, resold 'in ad finitem'. That is simply different than a situation where there are now 5 other pirate copies that the company didn't make money off of.
ok maybe you didn't understand me
1 copy bought + 5 times resold = 1 copy bought
1 copy bought + 5 pirate copies made out of it = 1 copy bought
in both cases the company made money out of the 1st copy ONLY
This is exactly why we have courts, because we live in a world with people who have all sorts of conflicting ideas. If we lived in Aya Brea world, then virtually noone could legally sell their used property. In my world, I can sell anything I bought, paid for, and used and lucky for me the legal system supports it.
if we lived in Aya Brea world companies would be forced by law to release 2d point and click advs with no action sequences!
anyway, you are correct, the legal system supports someone that buys a game for $40 and sells it for $400... if that's right or wrong then it's up to everyone individually to decide... it won't make a difference anyway
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:16am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (14 FEB 2003 2:10am)
That'll teach you to start a Hot Topic!!!
ALWAYS start a hot topic in the morning!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:24am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 2:09am)
yes but in total (if my example stands) they'd make more money if the games were cheaper... and the fact that companies don't see this makes it really weird
Come on Aya, of course the software companies see this - they do research, but the fact is it doesnt matter that much to them - they get money from advertising, promotions and other gimmicks; and as long as there are plenty of schmucks to support them by paying full price then they will continue to prosper!
no i don't live in the same time zone as you... it's 2 hours later here!! but if you REALLY have to go to bed then strike my above answer and make it "i agree"!
I'm confused now - I thought you lived in USA somewhere but if youre only 2 hours later, wher are you?
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 2:35am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (14 FEB 2003 2:24am)
Come on Aya, of course the software companies see this - they do research, but the fact is it doesnt matter that much to them - they get money from advertising, promorions and other gimmicks; and as long as there are plenty of schmucks to support them by paying full price then they will continue to prosper!
this will definately result in a flame war! i'm staying neutral! :-X
but still, no matter what you say, it makes no sense that a company would reduce a possible higher total income, in order to sell a product at higher prices... really no sense at all... that's why i think i am missing smth important
I'm confused now - I thought you lived in USA somewhere but if youre only 2 hours later, wher are you?
why did you think i live in the usa? i live in greece actually
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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