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| 1 FEB 2008 at 1:40am | |
RetrogamerIntergalactic Janitor  Posts : 84 Joined: 29 JAN 2008 Status : Online | I'm pretty sure there's not a lot of evidence supporting Queen Victoria being homosexual, but there is a gay cruise ship called the Queen Victoria. Perhaps its an allusion to that? |
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| 3 FEB 2008 at 12:53pm | |
CarolineJA+ Overseer  Posts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Queen Victoria is famously quoted as having said she didn't believe Lesbians existed. And she was devastated at the loss of her husband, confided to her diary how much she enjoyed sex with him and yes, did form an attachment to Mr Browne as well as a couple of her (male) ministers. Yep. Sounds gay to me. NOT. Daftest statement I've ever heard but hey... if it's in a pc game it must be true.... [smiley=crazy.gif] And Queen Victoria did not determine public morality. She was merely a product of her generation and was very representative of the upper middle classes and their attitudes towards sex and work and religion, etc. People tend to forget that the royals, while appearing to 'rule' the nation, and giving their name to a bunch of decades, do not in fact issue laws telling people how to live and dress and what to believe. The Church had far more impact on those areas than most people realise, especially as it was during Victoria's reign that the Church of England finally suppressed all the left over pagan village festivals including maypole dancing on account of the lower orders using such occasions as excuses for immoral behaviour. Victoria's private diaries reveal a warm and humours woman, very fond of her children but with no desire to meet and greet the peasants - who really were the great unwashed back then. Just as society is changing rapidly now, so too was her era. She saw the steam train conquer the vast expanses of America and Australia and India and Africa. She saw women demand and win the right to enter universities and then to graduate and then to take their places in the work force as the industrial revolution changed the English countryside and created huge cities. During her reign the very first computer was invented and the typewriter, the telegraph and the telephone and a wider system of free education all of which brought about social changes that her mother would never have imagined. It was an amazing century full of inventive, creative people who changed the shape of our world and not one of them owed their achievements or their morals to Queen Victoria. |
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| 3 FEB 2008 at 5:50pm | |
RetrogamerIntergalactic JanitorPosts : 84 Joined: 29 JAN 2008 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Caroline (3 FEB 2008 12:53pm) Sounds like we have a Queen Victoria admirer here! Hell of a woman, that Queen Victoria. |
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| 4 FEB 2008 at 3:39am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | No. Just a history buff who can't resist the opportunity to lecture people. You would have had the same response with practically any other King/Celebrity/Era, etc. It's okay to ...[smiley=yawn.gif]... just so long as you don't fall asleep. People have been know to do that and wake up after several hours of lecturing to discover their brains have abandoned ship and they've become.... [smiley=zombie.gif].... |
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| 4 FEB 2008 at 4:48am | |
RetrogamerIntergalactic JanitorPosts : 84 Joined: 29 JAN 2008 Status : Online | Well your knowledge of the personal lives of the folks who made history is impressive. |
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| 4 FEB 2008 at 12:48pm | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | You'd understand if you could see my bulging bookcases. Still haven't put them all into my database yet. : |
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| 4 FEB 2008 at 4:42pm | |
RetrogamerIntergalactic JanitorPosts : 84 Joined: 29 JAN 2008 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Caroline (4 FEB 2008 12:48pm) I love a woman with such bulges. |
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| 5 FEB 2008 at 11:07am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | I am currently reading a history book about the nitty gritty of domestic trivia during the 1800s. I must say that sometimes the author makes a vague statement about something that I know is current for only one end of the century and I wish it was made decade-specific. Then again, I am reading it for relaxation. Haven't found too much new information yet. I have recently expanded my field of interest to include ancient Egypt and also American history but I haven't started reading them yet. So, impress me. What are the books littering your bed all about? Today, for a university assignment, I have immersed myself in Germaine Greer - a feminist writer I have no attraction for. However, as always, I find these women theorists manage to find my sore bits with unerring accuracy. amn them. : |
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| 7 FEB 2008 at 7:51am | |
| Deleted User | Ahem, I stand sorely reprimanded for my innocent little statement: "especially as QVic shaped morality for almost a 100 yrs." :-[ Ok, that's just a popular perception generally entertained by the masses, which is, I concede, as these popular perceptions tend to be (especially about monarchs), slightly misinformed and not well thought through. I think what I actually referred to was the fact that Queen Victoria is popularly seen as an icon for her era (it is called the "Victorian era" after all), and the morals that were imposed upon the masses (be it by the church or whomever the agents for shaping the social and moral paradigms were) are popularly called "Victorian morals" and " Victorian ethics" . These where obviously not shaped by Victoria herself, but as she reigned for such a long time, they sort of became synonomous, or symbolised by, her reign. People are so quick to sling mud at celebrities, whether they be monarchs, pop or movie stars, I suppose there will always be malicious gossip circulated by the envious sour grapes club. It must be hell to have your life so publicly scritinized, but I guess you don't get anything for nothing, unless it's something you didn't want anyway. Case in point being the lady-in-waiting (I'm sure Caroline can provide us with her name, which I've forgotten), who was accused of having fallen pregnant during an unchaperoned shared carriage journey with a nobleman (who's name also escapes me), because her abdomen had started swelling. Sad was the day when she expired and they found the swelling was caused by liver cancer and not a little fetus. :'( Well, thank you for your very informative posts, Caroline, you seem to be a veritable encyclopedia, and I definitely think you should consider becoming a published author at some stage, as you also seem to enjoy writing. Btw, even though I used to consider myself a feminist of sorts, I have found that Feminist literature most often irritates the s*** out of me. Most of it seems so.. i dunno....-artificial, forced, unnatural? Hard to put my finger exactly on it, maybe a good word word be *irritating*? They often try so hard to be macho, intelligent, masterful, (look at me, I'm better than any man), etc. that relaxed good humor just flies out the window completely. |
| 7 FEB 2008 at 10:01am | |
| Deleted User | Oh, and just in case Caroline was implying that I implied something to be true, just because it occurs in a game: Of course not, but: [smiley=bullcrap.gif] 1. Games often refer to real life events, especially in the form of "easter eggs" 2. SH vs AL generally came across as a very well researched game; the art work in the gallery appear mostly quite authentic (well, I spent quite a lot of time browsing through them, as art is one of my fields of interest); ditto with the museum items. The character of SH is definitely well researched in the last 2 SH games (the other one being SH The Awakened) , and has remained quite true to Conan Doyle's literature. The real Sherlock was an Opium addict, he did keep his tobacco in a persian slipper, he did have a brother called Mycroft, he did come from a background of country squires, he did have a great-uncle who was a french artist called Horace Vernet, he did have a mortal struggle involving a fall down a waterfall with a character named Moriarty, he was an accomplished violin player, etc. etc. Although SH is only a fictional character, the fact that the scriptwriter has remained so true to the original literature that the game is based on (mind you, only based on, I know I know, obviously the actual story events of the games are invented and embellished with good dollops of creative liscence), that it would appear that the devs enjoy presenting well researched material with a ring of authenticity. 3. Even if no.2 above had not been a factor at all, it is rather audacious of the devs to hint at something which, in the Victorian age at least, would have been unbelievably scandalous. Let's face it, Victoria, (even though she revealed in her diary as actually having enjoyed sex), was presented to the public (by all the shapers of social and ethical mores, as already discussed) as a terribly asexual being, so whether she and Mr Brown actually had sex or not is a moot point;- in actual fact, she has been portrayed by different parties as a symbol which suited their agenda: as a chaste nun by the forces who espoused the anti-sex league (sex is the root of all evil); and then in reaction to this, as an undercover (excuse the pun) nymphomaniac (sic). I would imagine that she was somewhere inbetween, and probably quite a normal human being. Anyway, what I'm saying is that if the game had hinted at the famous controversy regarding Mr Brown et al, that would've been more in keeping with the general character of the game. As it is, the whole character of the companion and the hints implied, really jarred me, it made me feel uncomfortable; maybe it was what the devs intended. I know the dev team is mainly Russian, and there is obviously a love for Victorian literature there; ( - S Holmes, Arsene Lupin, the Cthulu mythos of H.P. Lovecraft). I just couldn't help feeling the QVic scenario to have a distinctly anti-British feel to it; or have I misread it, is it more an anti-monarchy thing? Mmm.. maybe, the Russian Revolution, and so forth. (Not meant seriously) Or are they trying to display a dislike for pomp and hypocricy? So that is why I posted this topic; - something jarred me in an otherwise well-researched game, and I'm still trying for the life of me to figure out why they did it that way. There must have been some motivation for it. :-? Off topic: I think I have now put my finger on what mostly irritates me about feminist literature, it is so self-conscious, and most of the authoresses take themselves so seriously, that it is impossible to feel any warmth toward it or enjoyment reading it. Anyway, if you're still reading these posts, Caroline, it would be rather interesting to know what courses you're taking at 'Varsity. Note a bit of envy here, sounds like you have the leisure to study some of the courses I would have preferred doing. Once I have the time and money again, I'd like to do some extramural subjects in the Social sciences, but at present I have 2 tiny little tots, (they keep you verry busy) so it'll have to wait a bit. |
| 8 FEB 2008 at 2:22am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | I guess you don't get anything for nothing, unless it's something you didn't want anyway. ... ain't that the truth... all those little trial bottles of fabric softener/shampoo/other rubbish the junk mail fills your letterbox with [smiley=rofl.gif] Hello Traveller I haven't played this game but I can't imagine why people need to imply lesbianism onto such a well documented historical character whose diaries have been published (copy of which is on my shelf). It irritates me as it serves no purpose. Intelligent, evidenced speculation however is fun. Richard the Lionheart for instance would today be tried as a cruel war criminal yet history has decided that his brother John was the villain. Feminist authors, I have decided, are fundamentalists who seek to control us by first identifying our grievances and then imposing their own solutions upon us which don't actually make us happy but have the appearance of 'doing something about it'. What we need is a more bi-partisan approach - a social agenda that liberates both genders from restrictive stereotyping while still allowing freedom of choice for everyone. There is a place this appears to have happened. It's called Star Trek. I am studying professional and creative writing. I'm in my 3rd year. I have two boys so I understand the incredible time demands motherhood makes. Sounds like you just have to cancel everything for the next decade and just play. I did. Best time of my life. Having said that, I did look forward to 9pm every night when they were in bed, the dishes done and I could escape into Myst and Riven and Obsidian and really play. Welcome to the forum btw. |
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| 8 FEB 2008 at 7:54am | |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor Posts : 51 Joined: 28 NOV 2007 Status : Online | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (7 FEB 2008 7:51am) From the Feminist point of view the literature was supposed to irritate you. These women's lives were ruled by men who blocked attempts for them to own property, vote, get an education all in the name of protecting their delicate nature. Through all of this decisions were made by men who often were less intelligent than the women they looked down on. Of course they were irritating. Try spending a few months of being patronized and treated like a second class citizen and you will be irritating as well. Edit****** Traveler this tiny rant is not directed at you. I just used part of your quote to illustrate why the writing was so irritating. Although to other feminists I bet irritating would be replaced with the word relevant. Caroline I like your view "Feminist authors, I have decided, are fundamentalists who seek to control us by first identifying our grievances and then imposing their own solutions upon us" Which is true they were reacting to a social condition they deemed unfair. Fought to change it and in doing so stirred up controversy. Star Trek is good. |
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| 8 FEB 2008 at 8:22am | |
| Deleted User | What! An intelligent well-gamed person who hasn't played Sherlock? They're fun! (If you tried SH Mystery of the Mummy, wipe the experience from your slate as that one was a dud and doesn't seem to have been done by entirely the same team that did Silver Earring, The Awakened and SH vs Arsene Lupin. Sherlock was a childhood favourate of mine, so of course I had to do the games. Well, Caroline, frequenting some of the more Plebian boards have made me lazy and careless, so its' quite refreshing to come across a sharp, obviously intelligent individual like yourself who could keep me on my toes (as long as I post something historical, of course). Yes, I probably was a bit unfair to Feminists in my previous posts, after all, we females owe them a huge debt. I was just feeling a bit grumpy towards them as I had read a fantasy short story by a feminist a few days ago (Unicorn Tapestry by Suzy Mc Kee Charnas) which irritated me down to the quick. But all feminists aren't the same of course. Yes, I agree with your latest comments on the Fem situation, but to be fair, one has to keep in mind that they were, especially at the beginning, a reactionary movement, and all reactionaries tend to be radical per se. So of course they won't come across as being moderate. One must also keep in mind that we look back at the early feminists from a priveliged vantage point that they carved for us out of their sweat and tears. I mean, the suffragettes were heroines to my mind, they were even prepared to be imprisoned for our cause. Quoting myself: "I definitely think you should consider becoming a published author at some stage, as you also seem to enjoy writing. " [smiley=lol.gif] I seem to have gotten that one right, haven't I. If you're studying creative writing you obviously had the same idea. |
| 8 FEB 2008 at 9:04am | |
| Deleted User | Hi, Antler Sorry, I didn't see your post before I posted my previous post, but I hope I answered your comments to your satisfaction in my previous post. As you can see, I do wholeheartedly agree with you. Also, I suppose we shouldn't rest on our Laurels quite yet, I can tell you a few scary stories about sexism still rife and rampant in our current day and age. We have quite a large Muslim community in our town, and a male person of this community happened to be at the same Videogame store as myself the other day. I know the proprietor of the shop quite well, myself being a regular patron, and we always enter into a discussion of the latest games. When the Muslim person realised I was there to buy a game for myself and not for a male family member, he exclaimed in surprise. Rudely addressing me (what the heck, I'm only a woman after all, so why should he show me any respect?), he asked me if I actually play games. Me, a woman, having the audacity to play video games! I just stood there with my mouth opening and closing like a flabberghasted fish out of water. The shop proprietor gigglingly offered the little tidbit that I am a mother as well. More incredulity from the Muslim. "What! So in your house the supper burns while you're sitting playing games! Heck, my wife wouldn't even know how to switch our Playstation on!" I gulped back an urge to tell him that it's not my fault he had married a moron, or that she probably only appears moronic to please him, who was an obvious moron. The shop proprietor was thoroughly enjoying himself by now, and with a big smirk, he offered that I actually like to play evil games as well. Seeing my gap, I added: "Yes, don't you know, the people in my neighborhood organised a sortie of church ministers to come and talk me into repenting my sinful ways. They spoke to me but I just laughed at them, so now they're officially going to burn me at the stake!" Gales of appreciative giggles from the proprietor. I left the shop with our Muslim gentleman staring at me in shocked disbelief, incredulously shaking his head from side to side. Another time in a gaming store I was chatting to a female fellow gamer, obviously about gaming. I was wondering why a male patron had become so engrossed in our conversation, as neither of us girls where especially attractive or sexy. It became clear when he turned to a male shop assistant, with the same tone as someone who had just been admiring the latest type of superalien from Mars: "Hey, I just dig these gaming chicks, hey! They're starting to take over the gaming world, hey!" I realised that we had just been a curiosity to this guy, and that his attentions had nothing to do with that new make-up I had put on that morning, or the way Natalie had done her hair. How patronizing and condescending is that for you, gamerbuddy? Not to talk of the terribly sexist way a lot of games are still being set up these days. I'm with you 100% , sister. |
| 9 FEB 2008 at 1:34am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Girls, this is so much fun. The Suffragettes (1st wave feminism) put a coherent agenda of female demands to the male Administration by organising working women and negotiating on their behalf. As female wages were set by tradition and law as being 50-70% of the male wage for the same work, it was impossible for single women to live independently. This was a deliberate ploy by the Establishment to prevent women from avoiding marriage and falling into debauchery. I know, sounds incredible but these are the recorded reasons for some very unfair laws.) Women continued to struggle for equal citizenship, and to prove themselves worthy – especially during the world wars. And we all know what happened when the men came home. The women got put back into the kitchen and a lot of social engineering happened to convince them that the domestic sphere was where they belonged. Apparently the invention of the credit card (1950) and consumerism was expected to keep us happy. I'm sure it did for a while which is why the 2nd generation feminists came along in the 60s and campaigned for equal pay, abortion and a whole heap of other sensible 'concessions' from a persistently male Administration. Watching footage of these early university feminists negotiating with middle aged men for rights we take for granted is very disturbing. It was only yesterday. Today, studies show that women occupy less than 15% of senior management positions in the western world and that on this level they only earn 70% of a comparative male salary. (At CEO level, the figure drops to below 2% while their take home remains the same 70%.) They do however make up 70% of base level employees. For all the activism and rhetoric, the traditional ratio is still being preserved. However, due to the high visibility of women such as Hilary Clinton, Condaleeza Rice, Margaret Thatcher, et al, women at the bottom and middle levels of society imagine the battle is won. They don’t realise how rare such women leaders truly are. Those women who attain power don’t do so with a feminist agenda. They actually maintain the status quo because their power base is not women but men. Modern 3rd wave feminists struggle to find an audience. Adversarial tactics don’t appeal to modern women who think they have all they need and don’t expect to lose ground. Yet our rights are being attacked. Mass immigration on a scale never before seen has brought old cultural values into direct conflict with our modern ideas of freedom and equality. Religion interferes with the brain’s ability to think straight especially as every new idea has to be run through the filter of ancient texts that all favour male superiority and the Religious Establishment is male dominated. I have always firmly believed that all women should regard each other as part of the sisterhood. Our domestic roles, our mothering priorities, forge bonds that ought to cut across national identities but such idealism stumbles when confronted by religious fundamentalism. As all religions are based on the premise that man is the boss, I naturally cannot support any of them, yet millions of women do. It matters little whether they are brainwashed or bullied, their belief driven behaviour is a brick wall in the path to change. Traveller’s recent encounter in a gaming shop with old gender prejudices simply proves that the turf is still being contested. Random displays of macho arrogance are the last splutterings of a dying hierarchy. It is up to us to make sure it dies by refusing to accept such put downs silently. Now, on topic. None of my female friends play computer games and I am often the only woman in such shops. As most of the games stocked involve shooting/fighting in some form I would guess that the industry has identified its main customer base. We are the oddities, as out of place as a man in a quilting shop. The salaciousness of sexual innuendo is I think a recourse of the weak to titilate and create discussion where there is nothing else of value to discuss. As all studies suggest that only 5% of the population are gay and that only 1% of them are lesbian, I think it's highly unlikely that Queen Victoria had ANY gay leanings whatsoever. Certainly I've never heard of such a thing from any other source but then I only read reputable historical sources. It's a shame that such nonsense was inserted into what was otherwise a very satisfying and enjoyable gaming experience. Pity that such ideas may pollute less informed minds. This falls into the same category - in my opinion - as the Hollywood movies that place American soldiers performing key tasks in wars where there weren't any Americans. I'm thinking of the Enigma code machine at the moment. It's so exasperating when well known facts are twisted and such lies are accepted. Caroline, the talktative one. |
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| 9 FEB 2008 at 2:05pm | |
| Deleted User | Wow, Caroline, may I pause once again for a moment to admire how knowledgable you are. If the statistics you presented are correct, that's very, very, scary. But I'm sure your stats are quite close, and that is schocking. I've had quite a bit of contact with 3rd world communities, and it's common knowledge that sexism is still rife there, as well as in the East. In the extremist Muslim world, women's lives are not worth a penny, they are sort of regarded as nothing more than walking vaginas. There are a lot of well documented cases of Pakistani women who are deliberately burnt by acid if they do not subject themselves to some form of sexual slavery. Well-documented evidence also that the North African tradition of ritual female genital mutilation is still rife. Young girls (in some cases, babies) have either their clitorii or labia majora removed, or both. This is supposedly to prevent them from indulging in salacious behaviour when they grow up. I'm sure I could lengthen this unpleasant little list of mysoginistic practices if i had time for a bit of research right now. Wat does frighten me, though, is that the statistics Caroline quoted is for the Western world. I didn't realise that it was still that bad. How recent are these statistics, Caroline, and what are your sources? The problem with this whole issue, is that the 2nd wave feminists stuck their heads in the sand about the fact that women and men are physiologically different; they liked to pretend that women and men are exactly the same, save for their genitals, but they obviously aren't. In actual fact women are hormonally and physiologically and phycologically equipped for motherhood. The survival of the species depends upon that. (Someone's got to do the tough work) In the olden days when humans were still struggling as a species against all kinds of threats, obviously motherhood was a very important role, as people had to make as many new people as possible to compensate for all the people that were being killed off by disease, famine, war, wild animals, the elements and natural disasters. Modern technology and globalisation has to a great extent neutralised most of these threats, (we are now officially on top of the food chain!) and the fact that humans have now started to overpopulate the world has pushed the importance of procreation into the background, and sexual activity has attained more value as a form of recreation than of procreation. In light of this, female equality should follow as a matter of course, and it is a pity that, as Caroline says, religion and conservatism still stands in the way of good sense. However, the fact that women hold so few positions of power would appear to have nothing to do with religion, but is probably due to a complex set of reasons. Here I want to pose a bit of a pot-stirrer: Shouldn't we consider the possibility that women are to a large extent the authors of their own downfall by colluding with the status quo. I myself am even guilty of this; case in point my remarks about "irritating" feminists. I'm not changing my view about the parts I find irritating though, but what I am proposing is that we start opening our minds, and start to examine everything critically, instead of merely accepting things because they, through conditioning, fall within our comfort zones. I must note with thanks that Caroline has thrown a bit of cold water over me, but it was a positive thing, it's jolted me to start challenging my environment again. I can see that I, and many other women around me, have become much too complacent. It seems we should put a huge sign up saying something like: Dear Ladies, please keep in mind that the male sex has a natural drive to dominance; they are not as charitable and fairminded as ourselves. They want to be on top and they're playing to win! Please wake up and stop being so complacent! You have a lot to lose. Back to the gaming thing: I've noticed that some ladies, (Caroline in partiular) does not enjoy violent games. But some of us, myself included, actually do. Female gamers, (myself included) seem to have a proclivity for fantasy type hack-and-slashers. In both literature and gaming, I seem to be drawn to exploring the dark side. I have two female gaming friends, the one having RPG tastes and the other enjoys amongst other genres, survival horror. So what, all 3 of us show no sign of butchness, 2 of us are happily married mothers. Although I appreciate and celebrate all the softness and nurturing instincts that go with femininity, I believe that aggression does and should also have a place in the female psyche. How else are we to protect our children? Nothing in the human collective consciousness is held in such revered esteem as the protective mother is. After all, that is what all of us, down to the deepest recesses of our psyche needs: a protective mother. How else would "The Holy Mother Mary" have risen to such prominence, to the extent that many Catholics pray to 'The Mother Mary' in preference to a masculine diety. And, lets face it, as a mother, I know that a good mother would be prepared to kill in order to save her children. But as these aggressive instincts aren't completely congruent with the notions of femininity, it's nice to be able to explore them in the safe context of a video game. (Gee, I'm spouting forth so much we could turn this into a sociology board!) |
| 9 FEB 2008 at 10:35pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . Well, this discussion certainly has become a great deal more interesting. I'd add my own thoughts but the topic is a sore spot for me. My opinions on it are tightly and inseparably intertwined with my strong feelings about the gross hypocrisies that still pervade religion and politics in many (if not all) cultures today. Since these subjects are no longer allowed on this forum, I will refrain. Cheers, Terry |
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| 9 FEB 2008 at 11:35pm | |
| Deleted User | Oops, have we been trangressing TOS here. Sorry if we have! This seemed to me a fairly open-minded board, but I can see the reason for religion/politics being no-no's , as this is a public forum and of course someone could take offence if they felt that their religion/political viewpoint was being critisized, especially with regard to Religion. Though as this is the hot spot I don't see too much harm in politics, but I'm sure the "Rulers of the site" know best. I promise I'll be a good little toe-the liner from now on and I'll make a point of properly reading the TOS. :-[ |
| 10 FEB 2008 at 12:16am | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . No problem Traveler and I for one enjoyed reading your comments. But we had a separate Politics and Religion forum here until quite recently. It was eliminated because those topics inevitably lead to heated arguments, personal attacks, trolling, flaming and lots of hard feelings. So now we are cautious about expressing views on certain subjects that cross over into that emotional minefield. Cheers, Terry |
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| 10 FEB 2008 at 12:30am | |
| Deleted User | Thanks for your tact and diplomacy, Terry, and for being so nice about the whole thing. (Especially you being a man an' all). I suppose your'e a good example to prove that there's still hope for us women if we still have good, reasonable men like you out there. |
| 10 FEB 2008 at 7:23am | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Traveller Regarding the scarcity of female gamers. I think exposure to the activity and local culture has a lot to do with this. When little girls socialise they play and talk. Watch a group of little boys and they gravitate to the playstation where they compete against each other. They barely speak yet they have a great time. The genders are naturally different. However I don’t think those insipid Barbie pc games help matters. Lol As to the genre female gamers play – I think that depends on personal taste and character just like the sort of book we like to read. Terry is right, drat him. Some topics can attract the attention of less polite conversationalists whose sole aim is to cause trouble. This board does have a private message function which can be used for sensitive discussions. So I’ll whisper and keep my responses brief and hopefully no one will notice. Violence towards women including female genital mutilation and the burning with oil that seems popular in England may seem more outrageous than our own domestic violence issues because a) it goes unpunished, b) other women are complicit in the acceptance of this violence and c) the victim generally has no expectation of justice. Shouldn't we consider the possibility that women are to a large extent the authors of their own downfall by colluding with the status quo. Let’s not get carried away and blame the victim here. Feminists would hang you for this, and accuse you of absorbing and internalising androcentric bigotry. I’m right up on the jargon at the moment.) Women always seek to blame themselves. I’m no different. It must be our genes. So let’s take gender out of the issue. Slaves didn’t acquiesce in their fate simply because they didn’t jump ship and swim home. The Jews weren’t to blame for the Holocaust because they climbed willingly into the cattle trucks. It is never the victim’s fault that the bully has beaten them. It is the bully’s fault. However, the victim has to realise that he/she can change matters. Let’s not forget that the bully also has that option. Most men don’t want to hit their wives. They’d rather cuddle and fondle her. Those that do will excuse their violence any way they can. If that happens to be ‘the bottle’ or ‘tribal tradition’ or religion then so be it. Whatever they can get away with. We need to see the smokescreen for what it is and insist on a secular, egalitarian set of rights and laws for everyone not forgetting that education is the key to equality. My stats quoted are from a university assignment I had to research in 2006. Where I quoted 70% I did of course round down from awkward fractured like 73.4% and suchlike. The Australian Bureau of Statistics website was most helpful and a bunch of others I accessed through the uni computers. You mention the birth rate. I read only the other week that the birth rate in Iran has plummeted in the past 10 years as most women keep their jobs after marriage. Seems the nation has discovered consumerism. The women wear headscarves on the streets alright – Chanel headscarves. LOL As for the paucity of women at CEO levels in industry. Blame it on our hormones. Who wants to stay up late balancing profit and loss sheets, preparing presentations for conferences when the baby is teething and you haven’t slept all week? Commerce simply isn’t as much fun as family. I wouldn’t trade in my years at home full-time mothering for anything. However, I did read a study that involved lots of interviews with MBA students across Europe. It found that the female students didn’t expect to earn as much as their male colleagues. So women are entering the workforce with similar qualifications but lower expectations. |
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| 10 FEB 2008 at 10:33am | |
| Deleted User | I really enjoy discussing what I call 'Sociology' , but as I've now been officially rapped over the knuckles, I'm a bit nervous. Probably I shouldn't have mentioned certain religious groups by name. Also my description of the ritual mutilation thing might have been a bit too explicit. I think my reason for being so explicit, though, is that I read a personal account of a refugee from one of these countries, who was then pounced upon by a British feminist sociologist who wrote a book about it. (My study is such a mess at the moment, I'll never find it, especially as I read it about 2 years ago, so I can't quote the authors for you.) Anyway, this feminist is obviously a good propagandist, as reading it really hit me in the guts. She had the victim of the mutilation tell in her own words how her own grandmother!! led her, an innocent and trusting victim, to the hut where the ceremony was performed. Through her incredible pain and confusion, her strongest feeling was one of betrayal. When she confronted her grandmother about the terrible thing she had knowingly subjected her granddaughter to, the reply was : "But it's something you have to have if you want to become a real woman." The victim subsequently fled the country, as she did not want this kind of thing happening to her daughters, and there seemed no other way out. This book also mentioned that with some tribes a certain part of the female anatomy (I'm trying to be as unexplicit as possible now) would actually be sewn closed until marriage, when it would be opened again for the husbands' benefit. I just couldn't help feeling sickened by the whole thing. The refugee woman's story is to me a good example of the 'female collusion in our own downfall' issue: - social pressures are strong, and we buckle under them, because we prefer to follow the path of least resistance. This young woman who gave up her ties with her family and country of birth because she wanted to protect her progeny is imo an example of an individual with the courage that we should all strive to have. She didn't just go buckle under social pressure, but did what she believed was right. I quote Caroline: . . >>"However, I did read a study that involved lots of interviews with MBA students across Europe. It found that the female students didn’t expect to earn as much as their male colleagues. So women are entering the workforce with similar qualifications but lower expectations. "<< ; -another good example of females colluding in their own repression: we don't expect anything better, therefore we don't demand anything better, therefore we don't get anything better. So, yes, Caroline I understand what your'e trying to say about not blaming the victim; I agree with you about not excusing the "bully", but it is so much easier to be a bully if the victim agrees to be bullied. To be fair about the gender thing, there are also rituals that involve mutilating men, so, as Caroline said, let's remove the gender specificity out of the issue, and just call our discussion one about "atavistic unreasonable social practices, of wich the customary supression of females is one." I apologise, Terry, if these are subjects that are offensive to sensitive sensibilities, but this board does carry a warning saying that it is for mature discussions and that sensitive people should refrain from accessing it. I will in any case, in future try to be more careful of not posting language that could be considered as too explicit. I also aplogise for mentioning specific Religious groups before, but I did take care to specify Extremist, as this does obviously not apply to the entire spectrum, and as I actually have friends who were born into the mentioned group, who are actually very nice people. I promise I will never mention any specific religious group again, except if they don't exist anymore, like ancient Egyptian or Mesopotamian religions. As far as feminism is concerned, I would imagine it is a subject too global too be labelled a purely "Political" issue, as it falls rather more in the realms of Sociology. Sure, it impacts on politics, but it is a basic human issue, just like education and health issues, which are also basic human issues that impact on politics. I apologise to the men on the board, my discussion is not directed against men per se, but rather against a specific atavistic social set of circumstances that I feel has become obsolete (for reasons mentioned earlier). So please don't think I'm a flaming man-hating, bra-burning feminist. I do wear bras and some of my best friends are men. But , like Caroline, I do like to write a lot. (Ya' think ya might have noticed by now?) Ahem.. which makes me think, Caroline, as there has lately been a rather large amount of games in the recent past focusing on the secrets of Ancient Egypt, shall we make our next discussion concerning the burial practices of the Ancient Egyptians, as specifically concerning their Royalty? Have you started reading your Egyptology yet? I'd love to get down and dirty (excuse the pun) on, for instance, the possible reasons for the legend of tomb "curses" to have survised for so long. Might it be poison? Might it be disease? Is it pure autosuggestion causing the victims' of the 'curse' to subconsciously engineer their own end? Wait for the next juicy instalment on: " TheTraveler vs.... |
| 10 FEB 2008 at 12:02pm | |
CarolineJA+ OverseerPosts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | TheTraveler (see I spelt your name right at last) How nice... you and I agree on so many things. You can stay. :-* But you'll have to lose that nasty girly habit of apologising to everyone in triplicate. Terry you get back here and be nice to Traveler - she thinks you're some sort of official instead of just officious. [smiley=rofl.gif] I went to see a travelling exhibition of Egyptian burial artefacts from the Louvre last year. Lovely they were. And when I was in UK last year I was delighted to find the museum in my home town of Liverpool had a nice Egyptian collection too. I have always wanted to see Egypt and lately I've been reading ads for 21 day escorted holidays, cruise down the Nile, see everything with a side trip to Petra.... $7000. Sigh.... one day. Saw a wonderful enacted history of the discovery of the Temples on TV last year. I had no idea the French were so perfidious. They out-Ferengied us. How dare they. > As for the curses. See here.... why let the truth get in the way of a good yarn? However, as a place to visit in games, ancient anywhere, especially Atlantis is always fun. SPQR takes you into ancient Rome, Timelapse takes you to ancient Egypt, Easter Island, the Mayan jungle, an Indian desert as well as Atlantis. Good value for money |
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| 10 FEB 2008 at 3:31pm | |
| Deleted User | Yes, I suppose one could indulge into speculation on a lot of ancient mysteries, Atlantis, the Incas, the Pyramids, the Easter Island stone carvings, Stonehenge, etc. etc. I was just slightly facetiously suggesting ancient Egypt, because: 1) Caroline mentioned it was going to be one of her fields of study in the near future; 2)To divert attention from the current embarassing little debacle (Ancient Egypt is far removed from our present daily lives, and unless you believe in spooks, it would be hard to offend anyone as they're sure not to be alive anymore.) 3)This is a gaming board, see, so we've got to discuss aspects of gaming, and there's a heck of a lot of games out there involving Egyptian mummies, and the curse of Pharao's tomb, and stuff like that. I'm glad though, that you mentioned those other games, I'd like to try them, as I just adore ancient anything. Ancient Rome is one of my faves, I used to read quit a bit of both lighter and more serious fiction about ancient Rome b'fore I became a gaming addict. I read a very scary historical account of the Mayans - you think the ancient Romans, Hitler, Stalin etc. were bad? Go read up what the Mayans did to subjugate the peoples around them. This time I won't get explicit, as I might just cause someone to throw up. But our dear friend Cortez got them good..... *shiver* Oh, and don't fuss about Terry, I actually like him (officious or not, he always seems to take care to be diplomatic). He's not a retired diplomat, by any chance? Ha, Terry, please never take me seriously, I have these naughty little Gremlins living on my shoulders, and they're always whisperin' in my ears, telling me to be irreverent. |
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