| Just Adventure News : |
| Home - Forum Home |
| Page 1 of 2 : › » |
| 30 SEP 2007 at 2:29pm | |
TreehuggerIntergalactic Janitor Posts : 2 Joined: 30 SEP 2007 Status : Online | I remember playing all kinds of adventure games. I like the genre so much, because it usually means the games have a great story, witty dialogue, interesting graphics - 3D didn't necessarily mean better - and perhaps even great voice actors. My best memories come from playing Monkey Islands, Broken Sword-series and especially Gabriel Knight 3: Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned. I can honestly say the last game changed my life. What has stopped me from playing many other adventure games? Well, to really iterate it, the genre has been stuck for far too long. Sure you can say that from FPS-games as well, but in my opinion FPS-games have still thrived for better gameplay while adventure games haven't. Back in the beginnings of adventure games, the genre itself was so new that not all features easing the gameplay experience couldn't have been invented. But as the years have gone by, it seems that nobody has bothered trying to evolve adventure games. I've seen some evolving in Gabriel Knight 3, where instead of static camera angles you had full control of it and some puzzles required you to search a room for a button under the table. In my opinion that was inventive. Also, I don't remember the name of the game anymore, but it had a clever way of hiding some useless interactive items. If it wasn't necessary to advance in the game, after a couple of clicks it disappeared letting the player concentrate on more important items. Adventure games in general seem to be really difficult, except for those, who are really hardcore about them. I've stopped playing many adventure games, because referring to a walkthrough too often doesn't feel like I'm playing it anymore. Many puzzles are way too difficult or are artificial. Whenever I bump into an artificial puzzle, I might have thought of another solution, but I was forced to use the solution the game designer had invented. Maybe I'm writing this in the wrong place, because all of you must really love even the current adventure games and in the end, some people absolutely love how adventure games used to be and some, like me, disappoint seeing the same gameplay over and over again. A question of personal preference, I guess. I wish someone could really try to revolutionize the genre. It could mix small aspects of platforming, stealth and even physics to do something amazing. Having maybe two solutions to some problems could be nice as well. I'd still stay away from combat not to make it an action adventure. Besides there are way too many games involving violence, so non violent games are refreshing. Adventure games have been the ones providing the best stories and deeper involvement to the gameworld than any other games I've played and that's why I'd still like to play them in the future. Let me quote an interview of Scott Bilas, the guy, who worked with Gabriel Knight 3. How do you describe the current state of the adventure genre? How has the adventure genre evolved over the last 5 years? How similar or different do you believe between the profile of an adventure gamer and the profile of a causal gamer? |
| Profile Search | |
| 1 OCT 2007 at 8:03pm | |
papillonSorcerer Apprentice  Posts : 340 Joined: 3 JUL 2003 Status : Online | Do you want revolutionary, or do you specifically want the games to be more like 3d physics cutting edge blah blah action games, like everything else on the market? It's a legitimate question. Many players are in this genre because: 1. they hate 3d action, and/or are absolutely crap at it. They cannot/willnot play the vast majority of games on the market because of this. Trying to 'upgrade' the adventure game into this sort of 3d action only means losing all of those players, and won't necessarily gain you any new ones. (I sort of fall into this category.) 2. they LIKE really hard mental challenges and are really only playing these games to solve puzzles, not caring about story. Make the puzzles too easy and they'll just sigh and go back to doing crosswords. (I definitely don't fall into this category, but I know they're out there.) Arguing that adventure games should be innovative and try new things is fine, perfectly good idea. However, if you have a specific idea of 'new things' that only means 'exactly like the rest of the market' then you're not really making anything innovative and new at all, and you're likely to lose more than you gain. There are the rumbling hints of a new casual adventure market at the moment (see Big Fish Games) - that's probably your best bet for something actually NEW. (And, of course, the game I'm about to release is very revolutionary, which may mean that everyone hates it. ) [url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url] |
| Profile Search | |
| 6 OCT 2007 at 5:18pm | |
TreehuggerIntergalactic JanitorPosts : 2 Joined: 30 SEP 2007 Status : Online | Originally Posted By papillon (1 OCT 2007 8:03pm) I don't want games to last just a little while. I want to engage into them for a long time, but adventure games in their current state have engaging storyline with far too difficult puzzles. I'd like the puzzles to be a supplement for the game, not something that stops me for several hours. Adventure games also require some sort of "adventure game sense", because a lot of the same puzzles get used over and over again. Without playing a lot of adventure games, you might not even have a clue how to try and progress. I don't want adventure games to become 3D-platformers either, but it wouldn't hurt experimenting with the technology and what kind of new ways it might bring to puzzle creation. Like Scott Bilas already said, hardcore adventure game consumers are the ones that kill the genre from anyone else. Nothing's too difficult for them and that's why people like me have difficulties in enjoying adventure games at all. |
| Profile Search | |
| 6 OCT 2007 at 7:31pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . I couldn't agree more Treehugger. There is plenty of room in the world for adventure games of every difficulty level and the vast majority of gamers worldwide simply do not WANT such a steep challenge. It doesn't matter what they are mentally capable of either. A lot of people just want a fun way to spend their hard-earned leisure time. IMO, we hard-core AG fans are far too harsh in our criticism of games geared for average players and newbies. I have read scathing comments about Syberia and many other extremely well made titles just because they don't include ultra difficult puzzles. Action elements are an entirely different matter but I also see the logic in including them for mass market appeal. If this genre is ever going to attract a large, diverse audience again, at the very least, they have to be "doable" by people of average intelligence who don't have any previous AG experience. They also need to be doable in a reasonable amount of time by average players - and without extreme levels of frustration. Once enough new players are hooked, then perhaps a new generation of AGs could be born that employ top talent, decent-sized budgets, broad distribution, newer technology and that most of all, will sell to a bigger, wider audience. Right now we have a very close-minded, super-defensive group of highly vocal, elitist hard-core AG fans who IMO are doing a great deal more harm than good by screaming bloody murder when any new game does not suit their personal preferences to a perfect tee. That is very self-centered, short-sighted, and worse, it makes the community look like a bunch of hyper-judgmental snobs who look down their noses at other players. They condescendingly dismiss and even make fun of simple AGs and literally spit acid at anything that includes action elements. You know what? I am actually ashamed to be associated with those people and as a long-time gamer who also enjoys a wide range of other genres, know for a fact that it is completely unjustified a lot of the time. When they mockingly scoff at "simple-minded" action games and other genres, they are exposing themselves as ignorant fools who just plain don't know what they are talking about. They give all AG fans a bad name and they project a very, very negative image of this community. A community that I also know for a fact is comprised mostly of very nice people. So many though belong to the silent majority and I wish we heard from them more often. They make MUCH better goodwill ambassadors for this genre. Cheers, Terry |
| Profile Search | |
| 10 OCT 2007 at 4:32pm | |
JehaneSpace Cadet  Posts : 128 Joined: 15 MAY 2007 Status : Online | This is an interesting discussion you have going on, and I agree with you on most points. As being fairly new to the genre - I played my first adventure game three years ago -, I'm sometimes a little confused and irritated when people who've played lots of games criticize an otherwise beautiful game like Syberia as being too easy. I, too, found Syberia easier than, say, GK3, but I think games like Syberia might be a good introduction for newcomers. I don't see easy games as a mistake or something that needs to be criticized. As many gamers, I enjoy a good mental challenge but there are limits. I enjoyed The Moment of Silence, for example, but the final puzzle was way too difficult and didn't match the average level of difficulty displayed in the game until then. I have a suspicion it was included for those guys who always go "too easy, too easy" - to give them something really hard to think about. And, by the way, I know not a single person who was able to solve this puzzle without help. As far as difficulty is concerned, I think we have two problems here: on the one hand, a game shouldn't be too easy because it might scare away long-time players. On the other hand, a game can't be too difficult because then it will not attract newbies. I think there should be room for both: easier games to attract newbies and interest them in the genre, more difficult games for advanced gamers. I don't know if I'm an advanced gamer by now, having played still only a handful of games, but I do know that from time to time I'm really happy about a game that doesn't challenge me too much after a hard day's work. I loved Belief & Betrayal for that - easy-to-solve puzzles, nice story, nice graphics (don't know if it's been released in the US yet), very nice to play in-between two longer games (I started with The Longest Journey afterwards). Many people have criticized the story, and from a historical point of view, the story is complete nonsense. But it's fun, and I think that's what playing games should be all about. Also, B&B has a pretty cool gameplay - classic point-and-click but also very interesting ways of interacting with objects and people by using hints written down in a notebook (acessable by moving the mouse to the right side of the screen) and a diary (accessable by moving the mouse to left side of screen). These hints could be combined with people, objects on the screen, objects in the inventory and a pager. The pager enables you to send informations you've gathered to the second playable character, you can take pictures and send them via pager to the second character as well. I really enjoyed this because it gives you more possibilities of interacting - I haven't seen anything like it before. Many people have criticized the game for lame story, historical incorrectness, outdated graphics, bad character development, shortness (it took me 12 hours to solve the mystery) and so forth - things a complete newcomer to the genre won't notice because they just don't have the possibility to compare the setting of B&B with that of another game. It seems that games such as B&B which are suitable for newbies receive a lot of bashing from the community for reasons I don't always understand whereas a beautiful game like Keepsake also receives some bashing because it is too hard. I sometimes wonder if people actually know what they want from a game, really... |
| Profile Search | |
| 11 OCT 2007 at 9:31am | |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice Posts : 241 Joined: 24 AUG 2006 Status : Offline | I don't know, maybe I'm part of that "silent majority" Terry was talking about. Or maybe not. I really don't care but I know what I like. I like adventure games. I've been playing since the early '80's. Since then I've kind-of evolved to my personal niche (3rd person point & clicks w/o action). These are the games I like. These are the games I buy. Some are easy. Some are hard (unfair safe puzzle in "Undercover: Operation Wintersun" >). I accept the fact that every game I buy will have some part(s) that ticks me off but (generally) I really enjoy them. Every once in a while I slip and buy (because of the gushing accolades) something like Dreamfall (but after having to fight the guy in the hotel for the second time, I quit). I don't begrudge people who like these types of games (or any other game genre). I certainly won't insult them. In fact, I hope they are having fun with their strategies, shooters, simulations, casual...or whatever games. If this makes me a "self centered", "closed minded", "ignorant fool", then so be it. Again: I know what I like. What I like, I buy. There must be a lot of like-minded people out there because there are sure a lot of 3rd person P&C's being produced lately. I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike |
| Profile Search | |
| 11 OCT 2007 at 4:06pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . Originally Posted By MKB (11 OCT 2007 9:31am) I happen to prefer classic-style, third-person, story-based PC adventure games too MKB and no, stating your personal preferences with ethusiasm hardly makes you any of those things. However, the PC AG community has some very vocal and very negative elitists who deplore anything that doesn't fit their vision of what an adventure game "should" be. There are equally irate, judgemental members in the fan base of other genres including action, strategy, RPG and sims. For instance, when the long awaited sequel to Diablo was being publically Beta tested a number of years ago, a group of hard-core D& RPG fans became incensed that it was getting so much attention. To them, Diablo was a simple-minded action hybrid unworthy of being mentioned in the same breath as "real" RPGs. So they invaded the forum threads at Gamespot and numerous other sites - not to add anything worthwhile but solely to post a continuous stream of insults aimed at Blizzard Entertainment and anyone who liked their games. They prattled on endlessly about lack of in-game story, linear levels, simplified stats, no party play, etc., etc. etc. all in a very condescending tone of voice. What they refused to acknowledge is that many millions of people loved Diablo precisely BECAUSE it was so easy to play compared to RPGs using the D& rules. They simply enjoyed the fast action, relatively quick learning curve and visceral combat. They loved the action-oriented SP and MP modes and they could not possibly care less about becoming dungeon masters or engaging in long, complex quests. The game was specifically designed for average players who just want to have fun while hacking / slashing their way through a fairly straight-forward, cool underworld setting with world-class music, sound effects and graphics. For them, Blizzard had created the near perfect game and the sequel promised to be even better. But to these outspoken hard-core elitists, Diablo was an insult. It "demeaned" the term RPG and they couldn't stand the fact that it outsold every classic-style CRPG ever made. They seethed at the thought of it getting more media attention and forum buzz than the average D& or other "real" RPG. So they flooded the forums with negativity and tried to ruin the fun for everyone else. I've seen the very same thing happen with hard-core PC strategy game fans relentlessly putting down Blizzard's StarCraft and WarCraft series, and fans of super realistic sims trashing anything that doesn't require reading a 300+ page manual to play. In short, they are annoying, pompous and in the end, do nothing to further the cause of interactive gaming. In their conceited, self-centered opinion, ALL games of a certain genre should be created just for them and everything else is pure garbage. Cheers, Terry |
| Profile Search | |
| 16 OCT 2007 at 1:16pm | |
JehaneSpace CadetPosts : 128 Joined: 15 MAY 2007 Status : Online | The sort of people you describe, Terry, is really annoying. I can't help but wondering if they even tried to play at least one of the games they criticize - I have no problem with criticism if people know what they are talking about and have valid arguments. What I cannot stand is people nagging away and trying to spoil the fun for everyone else. I enjoyed "iablo" even though I'm neither a fan of RPG nor hack n' slay. But "iablo" was, at least until level 8 in the mazes, great fun. Very easy to handle, no long annoying quests (I tried "Sacred" months ago and gave up after the first two quests) - just pure fun I do have, of course, certain preferences in an adventure game; I think most of us do. I prefer 3rd person, point&click, interesting story, easy handling, tricky puzzles. But just because a game isn't 3rd person point&click doesn't mean I won't give it a chance if the story sounds interesting enough - there are first person-games out there that really had me glued to the screen for hours. And even if a game is 3rd person point&click, that still doesn't mean the game is perfect resp. doesn't have elements I just don't like. Take "The Moment of Silence", for example. I really enjoyed this game but it took me a while to get into the mood. And as much as I liked the story and character development, I despised the character handling - I've never seen such awkward movement before. It was just plain annoying (as were the looooong dialogues). Still, it's a good game and I'd never condemn it just because character movement was a complete desaster. It's the same with every game, I think. There are always aspects that some gamers like, others hate. But as long as people haven't at least tried a game, I think they're not entitled to criticize it. Many people still do, however, because they seem to think they know best. Probably the best way of dealing with them is to ignore them. |
| Profile Search | |
| 16 OCT 2007 at 7:31pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . Well see, that's a healthy attitude to have Jehane - whether you're trying out new types of games or other things. I guess it's the condescending elitist garbage that annoys me the most. I mean, who cares if you're an expert at traditional D& RPGs or complex puzzle AGs, have played them all and prefer that type of game? That's no excuse for being spiteful and ranting incessantly about how much "better" your style of games are than all others. For me, variety is a lot more fun. Being open to it offers so many more paths to enjoyment and enlightenment. That goes for games, movies, music, books, art, food and practically everything else in life. Heck, I've heard several people say they "hated" Grim Fandango just because the keyboard controls required a little practice. Others refused to play GK3 because it was rendered in full 3D. But both games had world-class writing, great atmosphere, loads of wonderful characters, terrific music and far better than average puzzles. What a shame to miss out on them for such nitpicky reasons. Cheers, Terry |
| Profile Search | |
| 17 OCT 2007 at 5:28am | |
InlandAZGuild Master  Posts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Heck, I've heard several people say they "hated" Grim Fandango just because the keyboard controls required a little practice. I dare you to play the last Harry Potter game (Order of the Phoenix) with nothing but the keyboard : It's one of a few games I've used the hate word with when it came to their control systems. I found Grim Fandango a bit awkward, but still a classic. What? |
| Profile Search | |
| 17 OCT 2007 at 11:02am | |
JehaneSpace CadetPosts : 128 Joined: 15 MAY 2007 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (16 OCT 2007 7:31pm) Exactly. Seen from this point of view, elitists are sad people - I mean, by refusing to play certain games they miss out on so much. And they don't even realise it. Also, self-proclaimed experts are a bit... well.. I don't like them People who think they know everything about something are very tedious and no fun at all; they gather knowledge because they think it makes them special and because they can boast about it. And they can look down on others who don't have that special knowledge, completely ignoring that for other people it just doesn't make any sense to know every single rule of D& or every single quote of a certain movie - because most people want to enjoy a book, a game, a movie, music. I can't understand how anyone could refuse to play a great game like GK3 (my all-time favourite) just because it's 3D : It's the story that counts; the characters, the music. I, for my part, liked the 3D surroundings as well although usually I do prefer 2D. But the angles in GK3 were fantastic; and the rendering was in such detail that I'm dead sure I'd find my way around Rennes-le-Chateau without a map Sure, there are games that are more difficult than others; I've started to play Grim Fandango a while ago and put it back on the shelf simply because I found the controls a bit awkward - and it crashed. Now I got a gamepad; maybe this works better than just keyboard. But I'm definitely going to give it another try. Same goes for Broken Sword 3 even though the bloody thing doesn't recognise my gamepad. But still I want to finish this game some day simply because I don't want to start playing Broken Sword 4 without knowing the ending of part 3 I just have to find a way to sneak around those guards in the underground church... |
| Profile Search | |
| 17 OCT 2007 at 4:40pm | |
InlandAZGuild MasterPosts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Exactly. Seen from this point of view, elitists are sad people - I mean, by refusing to play certain games they miss out on so much. I've seen this very same attitude when it comes to copyright protection as well - can you imagine not purchasing a game just because you believe it will in their own words infect your PC? What? |
| Profile Search | |
| 18 OCT 2007 at 2:43am | |
MrLipidPrivate Detective  Posts : 666 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | Can I believe it? Yes. |
| Profile Search | |
| 18 OCT 2007 at 9:43am | |
JehaneSpace CadetPosts : 128 Joined: 15 MAY 2007 Status : Online | Infect my PC? By transmitting a virus or trojan to it? Who believes such things? And where's the connection to copyright protection? Sorry, I just don't get it It just sounds a bit.. paranoid |
| Profile Search | |
| 18 OCT 2007 at 5:06pm | |
InlandAZGuild MasterPosts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jehane (18 OCT 2007 9:43am) Boycott Starforce Analogue's forum You can find references like those above on almost any gaming forum (even here) - and although I agree 100 % that copyright protection only serves to intrude on the rights of the legitimate owners, most of what's been alleged is greatly exaggerated. There are those that will shun any title that contains it and miss out on some really great games. As a side note, Windows itself has been known to cause more issues, and yet... What? |
| Profile Search | |
| 18 OCT 2007 at 7:54pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . In addition to all the extremely negative press about Starforce there was also the whole Sony Rootkit fiasco that spooked a lot of people. Cheers, Terry |
| Profile Search | |
| 18 OCT 2007 at 8:05pm | |
papillonSorcerer ApprenticePosts : 340 Joined: 3 JUL 2003 Status : Online |
However, shunning can be an important weapon. A lot of publishers have turned away from Starforce in particular because of all the bad press. If a company IS doing something underhanded - and Starforce did at least a couple of things that were very bad, even if some of the claims may be exaggerated - then making a huge stink about it and refusing to buy on principle is a positive thing. [url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url] |
| Profile Search | |
| 18 OCT 2007 at 8:40pm | |
InlandAZGuild MasterPosts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Starforce was blamed for some very bad things - there's a huge difference between causing issues and being blamed for them. For what it’s worth, if you can point to a single piece of software that’s never had an issue -- ever -- I'll send you my next paycheck Like I said, Windows causes more problems all on it's own - and I'm not a supporter of copyright protection period. However, the various allegations raised by many have definitely raised a smile or two from time to time. What? |
| Profile Search | |
| 18 OCT 2007 at 9:16pm | |
papillonSorcerer ApprenticePosts : 340 Joined: 3 JUL 2003 Status : Online | I'm more annoyed by their attitude than by the specific problems I heard about. Since, yes, all software has problems. But some companies try to work with their customers when those problems come up... [url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url] |
| Profile Search | |
| 19 OCT 2007 at 12:18am | |
InlandAZGuild MasterPosts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Did you ever attempt to open an issue with Starforce? I can't believe they're any worse than any other software company these days. What? |
| Profile Search | |
| 19 OCT 2007 at 3:51am | |
MrLipidPrivate DetectivePosts : 666 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | I opened an issue with StarForce over Xpand Rally. Every email from them ended with this cheery note: "The information of this letter is confidential and must not be disclosed to third persons!" So, obviously, I can't share what they grudgingly revealed about what their product looks for on a system. |
| Profile Search | |
| 23 OCT 2007 at 6:14pm | |
InlandAZGuild MasterPosts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Actually the non-disclosure clause sounds rather typical - my own employer requires a similar tag line in all signatures, and they monitor it frequently. Opening an issue is the right approach to resolve problems however, otherwise they never get resolved. What? |
| Profile Search | |
| 23 OCT 2007 at 7:21pm | |
MrLipidPrivate DetectivePosts : 666 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By InlandAZ (23 OCT 2007 6:14pm) I agree that opening an issue is the right approach. I was told -- paraphrasing in very general terms so as not to break the confidentiality agreement imposed by the folks from Moscow -- that the mere presence of hardware (most - no specifics) or software (some - no specifics) that made possible the physical or digital copying of "protected" intellectual property would likely result in unfortunate, albeit not actionable, consequences. In my case, the result was my system getting tossed into MS-DOS compatibility mode. As long as my system was incapable of making backups to either CDs or the hard drive, things were fine. Of course, that meant my system was effectively a game console. It didn't take long for the annoyance of unplugging the CD burner when I wanted to play to overwhelm what pleasure I might get from playing. Since then, I have avoided copy controlled games and have had no problems. As for the original direction of this thread, I find I lose interest in an adventure game when a solution to one of its puzzles simply connects a plot dot for the designer rather than challenging a player. The phone call to make the rain stop in Syberia is a good example of this sort of exasperating silliness. |
| Profile Search | |
| 3 NOV 2007 at 5:48pm | |
InlandAZGuild MasterPosts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (23 OCT 2007 7:21pm)Originally Posted By InlandAZ (23 OCT 2007 6:14pm) Maybe I'm reading this wrong but... I find this to be the norm in most games. Not for every puzzle of course, but it seems that at least one gets thrown in that doesn't make any sense in nearly every game. What? |
| Profile Search | |
| 3 NOV 2007 at 6:12pm | |
MrLipidPrivate DetectivePosts : 666 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By InlandAZ (3 NOV 2007 5:48pm) Maybe that explains why I don't play most games anymore. |
| Profile Search | |
| Page 1 of 2 : › » |
Back to Top | Home | News | Articles | Forum | About Us | Contact Us
Copyright ©2013, Just Adventure LLC. All rights reserved in the United States and throughout the world.
All other products and copyrights mentioned on
Just Adventure LLC are the property of their respective companies, and Just Adventure LLC makes no claim thereto.
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy
