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Topic: Evolution in Adventure Games

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23 OCT 2002 at 1:23am

RWahKan

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I'm curious to find out what most people think about where adventure games should go.  There are Point and Click games, games with 3D characters on pre-rendered backgrounds, a few 3D only games, etc.

Does anyone have any strong opinions??

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23 OCT 2002 at 1:48am

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If I had the chance to write a new one, it would be completely in 3D, with a smart control and direct control over objects and environment elements.

I don't know if this is what you regard to as a strong opinion, I believe it's more a need for "making new", to quote Ezra Pound. Pushing the boundaries and that sort of hobbies.

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23 OCT 2002 at 2:00am

Aya

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you can read my views on that on this thread ... i think it would be interesting though, along with your views on this subject to also state your adventuring age, ie since when have you been playing advs... my guess is there will be an interesting views-age grouping! btw i play advs since 1988

You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.


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23 OCT 2002 at 2:09am

The Terror of the Wolf part 3

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Bring back text adventures  

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23 OCT 2002 at 2:10am

overcome

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I would like to see a fully realtime 3D environment, but with real attention to detail kind of like RealMyst and with interactive characters.

Until 3D environments can come closer to looking as nice more recent pre-rendered graphics (and they are certainly close); my preference would be 3D characters in a pre-rendered background.  

Of course it is always cool when someone comes out with something like the Neverhood claymation or even a game with handpainted digitized backgrounds would be a nice touch (and save a lot of time).

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23 OCT 2002 at 2:19am

MichalN

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My strong opinion is that there is place for all three types. Purely 2D games are in no way obsolete, if done properly (Broken Sword 1 comes to mind).

On the whole I'd say that 3D is more suited to RPG style games with less restrictive game environment. For Deus Ex that worked very, very well. In most adventures there's not much to be gained from 3D (and there's potentially a lot to be lost). I think GK3 is a great adventure and I think it could have been just as great if it was 2D.

My biggest problem is when 3D is used as an end unto itself and not a means to an end. Sometimes the developers seem to forget that their primary objective should be making a game that's fun to play, not making a 3D game. Yeah, I know, 3D is cool, but it gets boring after a while.

What I find very disappointing about today's crop of 3D games (admittedly primarily non-adventure games) is that they look so similar. By going for realism, the games forfeit style.

And to me, unique style is far more valuable than realism. If I wanted pure realism, I wouldn't be playing games
 
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23 OCT 2002 at 2:30am

InlandAZ

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Definitely has to have some 3D element these days - The biggest disappointment in Myst was the static "Photo" point click interface.

Just my opinion  -

What?


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23 OCT 2002 at 2:53am

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Story, gameplay and mechanics are my primary concerns.  Any one of these, if frustrating, can be a showstopper for me.  Presentation most certainly is NOT.  My only exception to that is that I do have a strong preference for graphic adventures.

Wolfboy, bring back text adventures?  I'm not certain what the difference is between a text adventure and Interactive Fiction, but the IF community is massive; I don't really see the need for a "comeback" when it never went away.

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23 OCT 2002 at 3:22am

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Hi all!!

My apologies for jumping in here, but for those of you who think that your voice is never heard, now is your opportunity to seriously influence the future of the adventure genre.

The creator of this topic, RWahKan, is the Richard Wah Kan, the CEO of Dreamcatcher (and no I didn't blow his cover, I think someone would have caught on to the RWahKan real soon!).

So rather than harp on IF games (not that I have anything against IF or even Zork mind you), let's give Rich something to think about and offer some valid and creative suggestions as to what you would like to see in adventure games, after all he is the owner of the largest adventure company in the world


As for me, I would like to see more well-written, humorous games.  I think games like The Quivering and Tony Tough have the potential for a huge market and I hope the sales for Tony Tough prove this.



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23 OCT 2002 at 7:30am

bleepnik

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Woah.  Gimme a moment, I'm all verklempt.

OK... I'm better now.  Woah.  I'd like to elaborate on my previous response now


Story.  I agree with Randy, I'd like to see more humour injected into a storyline, where appropriate.  By that I mean that a game should be funny if it's meant to be funny, and not if it's meant to be scary... or something.  I've heard it said about Dark Fall that it is one of the creepiest games to have been released in a long time.  That's fantastic.  I haven't played it yet, but I'm looking forward to turning down the lights, turning up the volume, and playing a game that has me holding my breath while I sit on the edge of my seat.

Gameplay mechanics.  I would request changes in the interface of new adventure games that enable me to jump right in and feel at home.  For me, that translates to mouse control, point-n-click movement.  I tried to play Arthur's Knights: Tales of Chivalry a few days ago;  I got nowhere in a hurry because of my inability to control my character efficiently using the arrow keys.  It was terribly frustrating.  In contrast, there's Amerzone, a first-person adventure that I was able to install and play without having to worry about being confused by its interface.  I can understand that a mouse with a measly 2 buttons may not allow for precise control of my character.  I would, in such cases, be perfectly willing to use my keyboard in conjunction with it, but the key mappings have to make sense to me.  
I am speaking generally now, and not of AK:ToC.)  If my character can crouch, let me depress my down arrow key and left-click to crawl forward.  Ctrl to take action on an object or character?  Hunh?  How about left-clicking on one of several icons that automatically appear when I encounter someone or something?  The interface simply needs to be made more intuitive, so that I may immerse myself in a world of fantasy, and forget that I am passing commands to a machine to be executed.

Presentation.  2D? 3D? Both?  I must reiterate here my desire to be yanked out of reality and plopped down in another world, a fantastic world.  3D is wonderful, it just doesn't work for humans.  When I see a 3D object that is supposed to resemble a human being, I am slapped in the face with the reality that this is a game, and this blocky character is supposed to be me.  That simply doesn't work for me.  It's true that in general I don't care whether a game is 2D, 3D or a combination of both, as long as I find it aesthetically pleasing, and as long as it is successful in creating the intended ambience.  The exception to this is human beings.  Grim Fandango was fine because the characters were humanoid but not meant to resemble actual people.  Stupid Invaders, The Feeble Files, Neverhood.  These games, among others, contain fantastic creatures, some of which may have human characteristics, but none of which are meant to resemble a person, so they look great in 3D.  The Law & Order game that was recently released, on the other hand, creeps me out because the models are made to resemble real people, and well, they don't.  

I realize I'm leaving out an imporant element of adventures here -- puzzles.  I haven't played enough games to really comment on their mechanics yet.  Sliders, timed sequences, these are still just names to me.  I'm pretty certain I don't like mazes (although the one in The 7th Guest was tolerable because you can find your way if you know where to look), and I'm also pretty certain that I would despise a puzzle that made me trudge back and forth through game worlds, completing positively minute tasks on each trip, in order to gather all the materials/information I might need to solve it.  Other than that, it's all fair game.  I'm really not a stickler for puzzles being well-integrated into the storyline, or making a whole lot of sense.  To some that may seem contradictory to what I've said thus far, but to me, if I'm immersed in this completely alien world, it seems perfectly reasonable for a random puzzle to just plop itself in my way.  Maybe that's just me.  Other, more accomplished adventurers will, I'm certain, be able to comment on the matter at length.


.gita


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23 OCT 2002 at 9:01am

ratracer

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My main concern about an adventure game is story or plot.

Not just any kind of story - Mysteries, historical surrondings, etc - Indiana Jones FOA, Broken Sword, Gabriel Knight are good examples. Exploring ancient civilizations, travelling all around the world, discovering mysterious artifacts...

What I would really like to see is a Blake and Mortimer type adventure - preferably with Blake and Mortimer... or else, their kind of american counterpart, Harry Dickson... (I didn't wrote Thing-son... but D-I-C-K-son - that's his name!!!)

Presentation:
I still like 3rd person perspective a lot. So I'll go for 3rd person perspective!!!
I could only concede 3D-first person if done like in Tex Murphy's games... What's so special about Tex Murphy's? The colours, the archictecture, the way you control your movements--- I can't really place it, but it beats any other 3D engine...
Although not everybody liked, I did like GK III and The Watchmaker 3D environments and interface...

Conclusion: As you can see, I'm not much into evolution... So have a heart for a lover of old classics...

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23 OCT 2002 at 10:17am

dimidimidimi

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Controls/ Interface. I think a big reason for bad adventures lately are their bad control system (keyboard control). I explain more about this on my 'note to developers' post. Keyboard/joypad are the ultimate controls for action games. Mouse is the ultimate control for adventure games.

I myself will never buy another keyboard controled adventure. I think the Longest Journey, and Gabriel Knight 3 had a really good point & click interface. And the dialogue system should be updated with the story events and easy to use. I think GK games have had a good dialogue system.

Graphics When it comes to graphics, 3d is ok, but my preference is in FMV as it gives the most realistic sequences (especially for serious games). 2d is also absolutely ok. I think all graphic styles are good, if done well.

Hybrids No action/adventures. If I want to play an action game I would go and play one. Action sequences where you just watch your character in it? Maybe some towards the end of the game to climax the story (GK style), or somewhere in the story that is relevant to it. Action elements? NO NO NO NO. I don't want to jump I don't want to climb walls here and there I don't want to check my health bar and look for health kits.

Story. YES YES YES YES. Adventure games were made for story telling. Give me a good story with good gameplay, good controls and good graphics/music and I am willing to pay as much money you want for a game.

Puzzles. Logical ones and relevant to the story. I don't want to use a walkthrough. Longest Journey and Syberia did really good on that aspect I think. No myst kind of puzzles. This is puzzles made so that if solved they will generate more puzzles. This is just ridiculous. I want to solve a puzzle, so that I can progress the story. Actually the less I think about puzzles the less distracted from the story I am. I don't want to get stuck.

Length An average of 25 hours I think is a good length. Something between 3 cds and 4 cds (if we take cds as a length measurements considering the TLJ was 4 cds and Syberia 2)

1st person/3rd person ...definitely 3rd person. In story telling you always have to know how your character looks like, and always how he/she reacts when sth happens.

I'm 21 y.o., I've played adventures since I was 11 and my favourite adventures are Gabriel KNight 2, Longest Journey, Syberia and GK3. That's just in case you want to make a statistics or sth.
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23 OCT 2002 at 10:40am

dimidimidimi

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And something that might sound as a crazy idea...but I will say it anyway. I think adventure games could be as a big industry as hollywood if promoted to the right kind of people.

I see adventure developers trying to make action/adventures, keyboard controled adventures, 3d adventures in order to attract more action gamers in them. This is definitely wrong and by what I have read it has failed in terms of sales.

Action players are not going to be interested enough in action/adventures because these games do not simply have the amount of action they are looking for. And adventure gamers are not going to be so crazy about it either cause these games are just not adventure enough for them. So what you end up is a small percentage of action players and a small percentage of adventure gamers buying your game.

Adventures are all about stories. If you want to focus on a group of people to attract to adventure games, that would be a group of people that enjoy good story telling. That is people that like reading books or watching interesting movies.

If I was the owner of Sierra I for example I would take a great risk and I would produce GK4 with FMV graphics, Dean Erikson as the main character, and I would try to include as many big hollywood stars as possible with the least money-spending possible. I would put a trailer of the game between trailers in the cinemas (before movies that have to do with the paranormal) or commercials on TV.

The trailer would be sth like....starring Dean Erricson... ...Joanne Takahashi... Al Pacino...Joddie Foster...Anthony Hopkins... and Brad Pete...It is you who have to hunt the shadows....before the shadows start hunting you...A gabriel Knight mystery...only on DVD ROM.

I think this game would be the turning point in the history of adventure games. It would put adventures in focus. But this takes a really brave person to do sth like that. Imagine though the outcome.

But even for a non-FMV game, for a game like Longest Journey 2 for example, I think promotion between movies and on TV would really help the game's sales boost. This is the kind of evolution the adventure genre needs. Not keyboard controled, action/adventure hybrids.

That is my crazy idea...
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23 OCT 2002 at 12:18pm

alkis21

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Adventure games should go BACK, in my opinion. We've seen evolution and it sucks. Not necessarilly back to 2D, but definitely back to inventory-based instead of puzzle or action based.

Do you like classic adventure games? Check out Diamonds in the Rough!


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23 OCT 2002 at 1:10pm

JimB

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I want to be sucked into the game completely, snatched right out of reality and totally immersed in the game environment.  I want to catch myself with my nose pressed up against the monitor straining to catch a glimpse of what's around the next corner or standing at the bottom of a cliff peering up at the heights and feel the grandeur of the surroundings.  I want to walk through thick jungles and feel the vegetation part around me as it reveals the next vine-shrouded turn in the trail.  What the devil is that noise up ahead?  At 3:00 a.m. I want to curse the clock and drag myself off to bed, grumbling about the disadvantages of a day that only contains 24 hours.  I want to have disturbed sleep because even in that state of blessed semi-consciousness, my mind is still playing the game.

Point and click or 2D games just don't have that capabilty for me.  I play them, sure, but going in I don't expect that kind of reaction, so many of them are enjoyable because I'm not disappointed.

To me computer gaming is visual.  What else could it be?  You are using a machine that can display movement and probably more colors than the human eye can discern.   Consider games like Tomb Raider, Deux Ex, Project Eden, System Shock 2, Indiana Jones, No One Lives Forever.  Adventure?  Not in my opinion.  However, if you could somehow remove the action and combat from these games, use the 3D environment and the freedom of movement the characters have, and put in the usual adventure game puzzles, mysteries, etc, I think that would be a perfect game.

To me the greatest part of adventure gaming is the exploration.  Take me to a place where I can never go in the real world; Egyptian tombs, mountain fortresses, space stations, undersea cities chock full of fantastic machines.  Make the environment as real as possible, interactive, not a series of static screenshots with small hotspots that when clicked on turn gears or move levers.

I don't want to be completely safe, but I also don't want to be killed every five minutes.  I definitely do not want to have to mow down hordes of re-spawning monsters.  I want to be able to save my game at anytime, not just at predetermined points.  I play for relaxation, after all, not frustration.

To put a fine point on it, I think adventure games could profit immensely by standing back and looking at the competition instead of dismissing them as merely "twitch games" for adolescents.  There are some aspects of these action/adventure games that could be taken and "adventurized," I think.



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23 OCT 2002 at 1:18pm

jamarchand

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A really adventure evolution, is a game based in blu-ray-disk (40 cdrom's storage lenght).
Evidentelly in pre-rendered grafics such Riven's quality with the Myst Exile 360° engine.
Mouse controled, with combining itens of the inventary, like Return to Zork. This game will be a serious and definetivelly contest for a gamer.
To a game like this, works apropriatelly, the plot need to be absolutelly logical.
Non linearity and no timed games. The gamer must be absollutelly free to explore the graffic beauty and solve the problems. If a gamer is lost in determinated part of the game, he could be able to travel to another part and solve another problems. Non restriction is essencial.
FMV (well done) caracters.

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23 OCT 2002 at 2:11pm
Deleted UserI will buy anything. I've played a wide array of adventure games, and found something to like in almost every style and sub-genre (Myst-like games being my least favourite, due to the poorly defined protagonist... I will buy and play these, as well. I just wait until the Best Buy-version comes out. (Kind of like the paperback of computer games, come to think of it.)). Graphics in particular is something I don't care about one way or the other: I've liked everything from text-only to full-fledged 3D or FMV games, and as long as the graphics (or text) fit the mood of the game, I'm game. But I have one strong opinion; It's about interfaces.

I don't care about wether I have to use the mouse or the keyboard. But I think interfaces has become way to simple. TLJ gave away the solutions to puzzles even before you started thinking about them, with the "flash if these items combine" and the "scroll through the inventory" features. These combined allowed you to try out every possible combination of inventory items and world objects in a matter of minutes, and since you had a really limited amount of places to go at any given time, the game became a cakewalk. Other games suffer from the same problem, though not as prominently. If I click the knife on the rope, do I want to cut the rope, or tie it to the knife? If I'm thinking about the wrong thing, I don't want the puzzle spoilt by getting the correct action performed. So, well, yes, I want the SCUMM bar back... with more verbs. Heck, give me a text parser! (I realize coding appropriate responses to every possible action could become development hell.)

Also, you should read the thread "The ideal adventure" (http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=AdvGameDiscuss;action=display;num=1034887537).

Edit: Tie the rope to the knife, not the other way around... Duh.

23 OCT 2002 at 3:33pm

Nellie

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Most of the evolution I want to see occurs in the gameworld.  I'd like to see a living, breathing gameworld - something interactive that the player is a part of, rather than something static that the player simply clicks on a lot.  There are some things that can be done to create this effect.

Firstly, there could be an increase of insignificant interactions in the gameworld, such as being able to make a cup of coffee or turn the radio on and off (Gabriel Knight 1).  These insignificant interactions have absolutely no effect on the puzzles or story, but they are things that the player can do in the gameworld, and as such they make the gameworld feel more 'alive' - a place of possibilities.  What would be truly great is if small events or reactions could occur because of the player's actions.

For example, if the player makes themselves a cup of coffee just before going to bed, then in the morning the player character will say something like:

"That was a rough night.  I shouldn't have had that coffee."

And that's it - no other part of the game is affected.  It's just a simple, small event in the gameworld that occured because the player chose to take a certain action.  In other words, the gameworld responded to the player's actions - it's aliiive!


Another idea would be to truly make a living, breathing gameworld by making the actions of the other characters much more realistic.  Revolution Software got close to doing this with their 'Virtual Theatre' idea - the non-player characters would all wander about the gameworld on their own business, and exchange small talk with the other NPCs they bumped into.  This made the gameworld much more vibrant - it felt like the place ran itself, and people went about their business regardless of the prescence of the player character.  Most other gameworlds feel very static, with characters just standing about in one place, never changing - as though they only exist so that they can be there when the player character needs them.

That was the Virtual Theatre, but a more sophisticated version could give the NPCs their own agenda - something that would cause them to change their actions depending on the player's actions.  Is the player character close to persuading a key witness to talk?  Then the murderer bumps off the key witness.  Has the player character spent a lot of time talking to the attractive hostess?  Then her husband becomes jealous and reacts rudely to the player, or persuades her not to answer any more questions.

Such responsive characters would take a lot of writing, but they'd seem much more 'real'.


This post is too long already, so I'll stop now.  But these two suggestions come under the same umbrella - 'The player's choices affect the gameworld occurences'.  This way, on a small level the player is writing their own story.  And the gameworld feels much more 'alive'.

I'd second the suggestion to read the Ideal Adventure thread, btw.
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23 OCT 2002 at 4:00pm

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As a big fan of Shark! Hunting the Great White, I would like to support the comments made by JimB about immersive 3D worlds.

Shark! drops people into a six degrees of freedom world where items can be found anywhere.  It's quite a rush to swim along close to the floor  
sharks tend not to attack if you're not in open water
), find an opening and drop into another room.  Especially when there is a treasure to be found in that room.  
It's also possible to go swimming in Serious Sam.)  Of course, one need not go swimming.  This could just as easily be zero gravity.  Imagine a spaceship where clues have been hidden on the outside of the ship and the only way to get them is through a spacewalk?

Since game engines exist that can provide this sort of freedom, why not use those engines to enable people to, say, crouch down and look under a desk or table?  What sort of puzzles might be possible in a truly three dimensional world?  One could find secret passages by pacing off the width of walls....




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23 OCT 2002 at 4:59pm

JonasKyratzes

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Originality. Plot. Depth.

Improving graphics, music, etc etc is not really progress (see my signature). To really advance the genre, we need to actually "advance towards what will be", that is create really innovative and original games. This innovation is not necessarily a matter of gameplay, but also of story. I think that since adventure games have an older, more "intelligent" audience, adventure games can be about some really serious subject matters. This might scare off some people, but they don't belong to the hardcore audience. On the other hand, it might make some other people actually become interested in adventure games. Not all games have to be about aliens, deserted islands, and saving the world. It's just like with movies. There are movies that sell alot, but are silly. That would be action games today. But there are also movies that are really emotional and powerful and intelligent, and they do have an audience, a different one perhaps, but an audience nevertheless. These movies, BTW, do not cost half as much as the blockbusters, because there are no great special effects etc. This can be applied to games, I believe. Adventure games are about story, really, so that's what developers should concentrate on. A game can very well be a meditation on an important philosophical question, or pose a question itself. A game can have a message, a meaning. This does not make it less fun. It makes it much more powerful, and while Quake gamers will not appreciate this, others will. And of course the marketing campaings will have to be focused on those people.

The most important thing, for me, is that the developers' mindset must change. In an article I wrote "But I feel that we're not there yet, something needs to change. We're still bogged down my rules, regulations, and other self-imposed limits. We still think in genres, we still think in old terms when it comes to expression. We have graphics, music, sound effects, text ... but we still use them in the old way. We still cling to the old rules, the old traditions. I'm sure that a lot of people have had brilliant ideas, but they're using conventional forms to express them. They try to turn their ideas into puzzle games or adventure games or whatever, thereby losing a lot of the original idea because they try to express in the same way that other people tried to express their ideas - which were, however, different. So many people think something along the lines of 'I have a great idea, I'll turn it into an adventure game', but that means that they have to alter the idea to make it conform to the rules of what makes an 'adventure game'.
Blake never cared about what the correct way to write a word was; he just wrote it the way he wanted to, the way it needed to be written for the poem to work. He also blended text and pictures any way he liked. Only the result mattered.
When we write games, we still use our tools (text, graphics, sound) in conventional ways. Text does this, sound does that, etc.

In other words, while we're trying to create original content, we still use the old structures. We limit ourselves, thereby losing most of our potential.

I propose a Revolution. Let us try to become like Blake; truly free artists. Let's throw away genres, rules, regulations, traditions. When we create a game, let's no longer think about it as a game that belongs to a genre, but as a unique work of art instead. Let us no longer limit ourselves with old structures and old ideas. We will express each idea the way it needs to be expressed. Text, graphics, sound - they're all tools we can use in infinite ways. Each of them can express a million things. Why should we use them in only a singe way? "
I still see things like that. There is so much potential, untapped potential that is, in interactive art (=games).
We must stop sticking to conventional form. There are so many kinds of stories and so many ways of telling them.
We also need to start thinking more about what we're trying to achieve when making a game. Good graphics for good graphics' sake are worthless. The developer should ask himself: what kind of graphics does this game need? Why does it need them? Sometimes 3D is NOT the answer. Graphics, sound, music, text, everything is a tool for the developer, not a purpose.
Text and storytelling, by the way, could be part of the pleasure of playing a game, just like reading a book. They can be more than just a way of taking the player from one event to the other more quickly. People do enjoy reading a well-written story. Believe me, this is the only reason that people actually like my game.

So, where should adventure games go?
Wherever they can! There is no single answer, no single ideal adventure game. But depth and meaning are certainly a good answer, and I'd like to see many adventure games take that road (some already have, too).

Darn, I could write about this forever, but my back is killing me. Gotta lie down.
[i]

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23 OCT 2002 at 5:09pm

JonasKyratzes

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I explain what I mean about text in this article (I'm posting the link because I can't just post the entire text).

(Yes, I always rant about the 'big boys'
).

Here's an extract:

Text, text, text. Once upon a time, most games were full of text. Now most games are full of flashy 3D effects and barely any text at all. Oh, I'm not one of those conservatives who think that any kind of change is bad. Certainly not. I like flashy 3D graphics when they're appropriate. That's the keyword. Some people seem to think that you can put graphics on some sort of scale that goes like this: 'text -> 2D graphics -> 3D graphics'. Well, I've never believed that. Some games just look better in 2D. Take a look at some of the old console games. 2D can have its own kind of beauty, much like a painting. 3D is not better than 2D, nor is it worse. They should not even be compared. Some games work better in 2D and some games work better in 3D.
The same thing goes for text. Sometimes text is just appropriate, and it seems to me that game designers are starting to forget that. There are some things that cannot be done with graphics, that cannot be expressed by pictures. That's one of the reasons we still have books. There's something about words, something that goes straight to the brain. That's why there's still a big interactive fiction scene out there. Perhaps you should check it out. There are text games that so brilliant that your jaw will hit the floor. Try Photopia. It's incredible what you can do with words. I am convinced that it would be impossible to do this with pictures. Pictures are nice, but so are words. We have to realize that words have power, and that we can use that power in our games. It has been done before, after all.

[i]

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23 OCT 2002 at 5:50pm

mszv

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Hi RWahKan and everyone,

Thanks for stopping in.
Game visuals are very important to me.  If I don't like how a game looks, it's hard for me to buy the game.  As for 2D engine, 3D engine, I'm flexible.    Here are some thoughts on what I  look for -

- the game must look like it was done by one designer, even if 100 people worked on the game.  I'd also like the game to look different from all the other games out there.  Game are gorgeous, but all this "pack in the pixels" single point perspective sometimes bugs me.  I think some games should have visual analogies to comics, or illustrations, or movies, or even photos.  I like variety.  I'd like more of an influence of contemporary non-commercial art (as in "Bad Milk), but games are part of popular culture, so I don't think that's going to happen.  But, borrowing from other visual genres works for me.

- 2D engines seem to work best for 1st person slide  show games.  Some people think they are too static, but I like them just fine.  Personally, I think the visuals in Myst hold up very well over time, they look like paintings.

- I think that Syberia is a 2D game with a 3D person  walking around, is that right?  That seems to work reasonably well for an adventure game.  It's a great game, it's beautifull, and how Kate (the primary character) interacts with her environment is usually seamless.  However, you do get some eerie parts in the game where it looks like Kate is walking through a landscape frozen in time.  I don't know how you get around that.

- I haven't played very many 3D games.  I am playing Morrowind, which I think is a 3D game, since it comes on only one CD.  If so, the game is beautiful.  The figures aren't as finely modeled as I would like, but the game is lovely, and the full movement is great.  If it's going to be 3D, I want it to be so beautifull it will practically make my heart stop.   I'd like to play more 3D games, I'd like to see games go for the new technology, assuming I have a good enough machine to play them.  It's a computer, it has a graphic card, it has sound, so I want to see and hear new wonderous things.

- it's nice if the cut scenes have something in common with the game.  Sometimes you get lovely cut scenes, and not so pretty games.  I'd like the cut scenes closely resemble the game.

As for story, I like both first person and third person.  I  love lonely "explore the world by yourself" games and games with a lot interaction.   Both work for me, depending upon the game.  The trend in adventures seems to be the thrid person game, so make sure to keep some first persons for me!   My preference is generally for moody, evocative games (sorry Randy, humor is not that big for me!), with a world I can lose myself in.  Again, there are exceptions.  I love Grim Fandango, and there is a lot of humor in that game.   I also like linear and non-linear games.  

I like variety in story themes.  It's a game, so I don't think there has to be as much of a story as in a novel, but there has to be some story.   I like big stories (one character saves the world) and more personal stories (you solve one mystery), depending on the game.  I like science fiction themes (getting rarer), fantasy themes, and other kinds of themes.  I like games set in current times and games set in some undefineable time.  I'm not that big on history themes (21st century sensibilities set in some sort of historical time, as a friend of mind said - "the past is not a place, you can't go there"
, but it's fun to see a game play with historical or cultural themes (Grim Fandango - film noir meets Mexico's Day of the Dead,  and it's respectful to both!

I don't play adventure games for puzzles, but many adventure gamers do.  I play them for the immersive world experience.   I prefer easy puzzles.  It's nice if the puzzles make sense in a game.

As for game interface, I think no interface is good.  Point and click is OK, keyboard is OK, but I always forget what the keyboard controls are.  I like to play one-handed.  I'm still waiting for the perfect interface - if I could wave my hand in front of the screen, or blink, that might work.  I'd like the interface to be as automatic as breathing, but we have a long way to go.   The best interface today is probably keyboard/mouse, but, from what I've read, many adventure gamers just hate keyboard controls.

I'm looking forward to new Dreamcatcher games, particularly Post Mortem.  Dreamcatcher is publishing that game in the US, right?

Thanks.

One more thing - what JimB so eloquently said (except for the 2D slide show part) - me too!  Well said, JimB.


Regards, mszv

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23 OCT 2002 at 6:43pm

MichalN

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Originally Posted By JonasKyratzes (23 OCT 2002 5:09pm)
I explain what I mean about text in this article (I'm posting the link because I can't just post the entire text).

The URL you posted is a bit broken but nothing I couldn't fix (the quoted version is correct)


Anyway I completely agree with you that text needs to play (again) a more important role in adventures (and perhaps even other games). I believe that the advent of full voiceovers has had negative effect here. The developers seem to believe that every bit of text in a game needs to have a voiceover. And hence they're reluctant to include tons of text. Bad for us.

This has serious impact on interactivity. When (for instance) trying to combine various objects, text-based games often had customized messages for many combinations, explaining why exactly that won't work (often in a witty way) and occasionally giving hints about what might work. Newer "speech-only" games often tend to have one or two catch-all messages telling you "this doesn't work". Well, that IMO doesn't work very well indeed because the sense of interaction is lost.

I've been recently (more or less by accident) playing a bunch of old Legend Entertainment games. Gateway, Shannara, Mission Critical, Death Gate, Companions of Xanth and probably some others. I really liked the interface these games used, although I'm sure it is considered too "old-fashioned" by some. These games are basically graphical versions of old text based adventures.There is a (sometimes quite large) list of verbs but the best part is that the list is not fixed. If there is one object in the game where a "squeeze" action makes sense, it will be offered for this particular object. And at the same time the games are still purely point'n'click and the interface is very easy to use because there are sensible default actions.

These games also have what I mentioned above - customized "failure messages" for actions that do not lead to a solution but are likely to be tried by the player. Instead of "that doesn't work" you sometimes get a full paragraph of text that often provides additional clues and if nothing else, provides a better "feel" for the game.

Sometimes people say that "a picture is worth a thousand words". And often it's true... but people tend to forget that sometimes a few well-chosen words can express what million pictures can't - it's all about the difference between abstract and concrete concepts.
I forgot my sig.

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23 OCT 2002 at 10:44pm

overcome

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I second everything JonasKyratzes wrote above!

Well written.  I agree the adventure game should conform to the designers expression rather than his idea and expression having to conform to some conventional game principles.  If the game has meaning and depth it people would probably be willing to accept much less in the way of graphical perfection or incredible puzzle designs.

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23 OCT 2002 at 11:52pm

Lancelot

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>

I think the key question of the survival of the genre the developement of the strory-telling techniques and dinamic environments.  

In the past many adventure games tried to create real-time environments: Lure of the Temptress was for example one of these pioneer programs. There were also a lot of adventures introducing puzzles based on timing (Horror-Soft’s Personal Nightmare, The Last Express). There were many non linear adventures, something what the German Discreet Monsters tried to resurrect recently with the Real Never Ending Story. Their  elastic story-line technique meant that the story would change due to your decisions.  
I could imagine even an adventure with emotion-based dialogs, and also with day-night circles, something borrowed from the RPG genre. (Quest for the Glory is a perfect example).

I think 3D could become now a perfect field for these ideas, but I dont see any games (exept Fahrenheit perhaps) which try to benefit from this gift.  The adventure genre doesnt do enything except trying to make more and more spectacular games. The audiovisual revolution became some kind of a lotus fruit for adventure games.  

The other big proglem (With the Dreamcatcher games as well  :-/  is the low level of interactivity. These games give to much to your eyes and ear, but to less to your hands. So it is quite a paradoxical situation, as the high visual quality evokes desire to immers in the  environment, what these games could not fulfill, so the adventurers become terribly frustrated.

To sum up:  I think the key of the future development, the survival of the genre is dinamic environment a much more interactivity.
Game designers should have examine the old adventures (yes even the IF games!) becouse they could have learn much from them!!!        

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