| 20 FEB 2003 at 11:34am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (20 FEB 2003 11:03am)
So you agree that Bad Mojo is a radically different and unique game in terms of gameplay, but not the basic mechanics of gameplay where you only control your cyber stand-in on screen, the gameplay that includes story and puzzles?
I said that Bad Mojo is one of my favorite games. And that I would be very interested in your comments on it. And I meant that.
What captured your interest in Bad Mojo? Was it the photorealistic backgrounds? The setting? The music? The control scheme? The overall design of the game? The slow accumulation of clues? The dawning realization of what the story was actually about? The unexpected sweetness of the story beneath the surface squalor?
Which of the above (or other) elements in Bad Mojo helped make it, I assume, one of your favorites?
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 11:48am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (20 FEB 2003 11:34am)
Which of the above (or other) elements in Bad Mojo helped make it, I assume, one of your favorites?
I don't see where's the point there. This has nothing to do with Bad Mojo being one of my favorite games or not. I accept Bad Day On The Midway is an unique game but maybe it's not one of my favorites. The only thing I want to know is if Bad Mojo is an unique game to you. If not, what's an unique game to you?
I'm going to quote you directly -
GK1 was the typical Sierra format of the period. Bad Mojo was a third person (roach) title that used keyboard controls. Certainly not a radical new format or a radical new concept. The lack of dialogue or inventory hardly qualifies as radical. Not after the release of a game based on "already established concepts" three years earlier.
I hope I wasn't mis-quoting you.
Oh and, in case in the post above you were talking about basic mechanics of gameplay, now I'm talking of the full gameplay, with story and puzzles.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 12:01pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | SirDave,
Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 10:52pm)
Your answer is an example of what I am referring to as parsing. You take a collective answer and snippet out one sentence and call it into question, ignoring the rest of the answer which may not have been included because it made so much sense.
No, that's not true. Your post was intended as a rebuttal to prove how some games can be adventure games and you gave some reasons. All I did was address each one of these reasons separately. So no, I didn't ignore the rest of the answer. I answered in a rather funny way but now I'll try to answer more seriously.
Here's your full comment:
But I do get tired of hearing that games (eg. games with lots exploration, puzzles and levers, etc.) are not adventure games. You can argue all you want, but these games are adventure games whether you like it or not. They are marketed by companies that call themselves things like The Adventure Company, they are played by adventure game fanatics everywhere, and they are reviewed by adventure game reviews on websites called things like JustAdventure.
1. So if I start a company, name it "Adventure Haven" and start selling Tomb Raider clones as adventures - can I say I'm selling adventures? I know what you mean, and the Dreamcatcher example might be valid, but there are many other companies that have no idea what they're selling (and they publish Myst-like games). So I think this reason is not enough.
2. No sorry, that fact isn't relevant. Adventure fanatics everywhere play all kinds of games. So the fact that they play Myst-like games doesn't mean they're adventure games. In fact, many adventure gamers played Alone In The Dark and everyone accepted it as an adventure game. Honestly, do you think that's an adventure game?
3. Go to Adventure Gamers. They reviewed Red Jack and Red Guard as adventure games.
And I'm not saying Myst-like games aren't adventures, I'm just saying that I don't think your reasons are enough to call them adventures.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 12:14pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (20 FEB 2003 11:47am)
I don't see where's the point there. This has nothing to do with Bad Mojo being one of my favorite games or not... The only thing I want to know is if Bad Mojo is an unique game to you. If not, what's an unique game to you?
I said before that I would like to read your comments on Bad Mojo. I meant that.
I had hoped, by providing a list of possible discussion points, that you would be willing to discuss what appealed to you about the game.
Obviously I was wrong. Sorry you have nothing to say about this great game.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 12:24pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Alright, MrLipid, it seems you're the one who shift the discussions then.
I'll write about Bad Mojo in the future so that everybody may know what I think about this game, I promise you. But, for the sake of this discussion, I still don't know what's an unique game to you (since, apparently, Bad Mojo isn't).
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 1:26pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (20 FEB 2003 12:24pm)
Alright, MrLipid, it seems you're the one who shift the discussions then.
When sincere (and repeated) requests to read your comments on Bad Mojo can only be understood by you as an effort by me to "shift the discussions," it's obvious, at least to me, that this thread is no longer (perhaps it never was) about discussing a hobby we share.
When you said you "couldn't say enough good things" about the list of games you posted, I was looking forward to reading your comments. Positive remarks about great games. That would have made a pleasant change. Too bad that isn't something you're willing to do. We might have had a fruitful conversation.
I'll write about Bad Mojo in the future so that everybody may know what I think about this game, I promise you.
I may be back when those comments are posted.
But, for the sake of this discussion, I still don't know what's an unique game to you (since, apparently, Bad Mojo isn't).
Whatever.....
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 1:43pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Just think about what you're saying to me. We're discussing what makes a game unique, that is, radical concepts and you're asking me to give positive remarks (which I have, and lots of them) about games I mentioned. I'm more than willing to comment on those games but not now because it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you want, I can start a thread at the Adventure forum and comment on those games. But how would this help to this discussion?
And, with your first paragraph, you proved my point. Almost every thread in this forum is about discussing a hobby we share, it's just that the idea is to discuss specific issues about this hobby. Like radical concepts. Yes, you're shifting the discussion.
Anyway, like you said, whatever...
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 2:32pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (20 FEB 2003 9:39am)
I remember exactly 4 people in GoT: the guild master who made an appearance at the beginning and the end (just like Atrius in Myst); the guard to the castle, the miller, the bank director.
maybe, but you interacted with them... seeing someone talking to you in a video message is like watching tv... totally interactionless
In many, yes. Not very good for your AG criterium of character development.
oh so according to your criteria, a genderless character can have no character development, hence 90% of txt advs have actually no char.dev! :
I'm repeating myself, I know, but then so are you. Nonsense, you had no identity, no character, no personality, no gender in GoT, just a mission: finding treasures. In Myst you had no identity, no character, no personality, no gender and you had to discover what your mission was: finding pages. Sounds like a true adventure to me. You didn't need to "think like a thief" in GoT, you had to solve very hard puzzles to get access to some areas/treasures. Sneak into areas? HA! Come off it, go replay the game. In Myst you had to pull levers and figure out how to get access to areas/pages. What's the big difference?
that's what YOU think... because of course in GoT you had an identity... identity btw does not mean you know your name, age, ssn etc... and you had also character and personallity... you just didn't have a gender (which, come to think of it, happens also on most 1st person advs... so do they also lack character development? seems like according to YOUR criteria that doesn't suck, the only advs that have char.dev are 3rd person advs)... and yeah i repeat myself and you do too and we'll keep repeating ourselves till the end of time it seems :
You an expert on polls too?
don't need to be an expert to know that when 10.000.000 have played a game, a sample of a couple of thousands is less than insignificant
So this is what your "objective truth" amounts to after all. Aya's highly personal, subjective opinions and preferences. Nothing objective about it.
oh brother... yeah ok... it's not Aya's "subjective" opinions... and because Aya's "subjective" opinion is that unreal is a fps, it's not, because Aya's "subjective" opinion is that fifa 2003 is a football (soccer) sim, it's not, because Aya's "subjective" opinion is that starcraft is a rts, it's not, and of course because Aya's "subjective" opinion is that myst is a puzzle game, it's not
or maybe is it that the "objective" truth is only what certain ppl are willing to accept? :
i think it's the latter.......
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 4:07pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | oh and smth else about my subjectivity... you seem to avoid (like an eel in a bucket of snot! ) my stupid invaders/silent hill example... why? becuase you know you "won't have a case" if you try to respond to that... cause i'm not the one categorizing games accroding to my preferences... Parasite Eve is one of my fav games ever, and it has adv elements as well... some ppl may even call it an adv... i don't... why? because it DOESN'T matter how much i like it, it's just NOT an adv... so it seems that "other ppl" are trying to categorize games according to their personal preferences not me
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 5:51pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (20 FEB 2003 12:01pm)
1. So if I start a company, name it "Adventure Haven" and start selling Tomb Raider clones as adventures - can I say I'm selling adventures? I know what you mean, and the Dreamcatcher example might be valid, but there are many other companies that have no idea what they're selling (and they publish Myst-like games). So I think this reason is not enough.
2. No sorry, that fact isn't relevant. Adventure fanatics everywhere play all kinds of games. So the fact that they play Myst-like games doesn't mean they're adventure games. In fact, many adventure gamers played Alone In The Dark and everyone accepted it as an adventure game. Honestly, do you think that's an adventure game?
3. Go to Adventure Gamers. They reviewed Red Jack and Red Guard as adventure games.
Rael, my guess would be that practically everyone, except you, would understand the substance of the points I made above. You seem to feel the need to use exceptions to the rule to somehow diminish the value of the points themselves. [I appreciate that at least that you have moved from calling my first point (re: Dreamcatcher) 'quite irrelevant']
For instance, reoint 2: you say 'So the fact that they play Myst-like games doesn't mean they're adventure games.' You know darn well that the point I'm making is that the adventure fanatics think they're playing adventure games and that is relevant since I'm talking about many of the posters on this forum who are intelligent, experienced gamers and likely know what an adventure is.
As for point 3, the fact that the reviewers have reviewed games that may well not be adventure games has nothing to do with anything. If you read my full comment, you know darn well that I said that when these reviewers review Myst-like games they have never said that because of their characteristics, they are not adventure games. That is the point!
But here's what I really can't understand: You have now said in 2 different places:
'And I'm not saying Myst-like games aren't adventures, I'm just saying that I don't think your reasons are enough to call them adventures.'
'you know perfectly I never ever said Myst wasn't an adventure game (I only wanted to prove your previous arguments weren't valid).'
If you basically agree with the simple point I'm making that these games are adventure games, instead of wasting your (and my time) picking apart my comments, why don't you correct me by coming up with the reasons why you believe they are adventure games.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 7:04pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (20 FEB 2003 5:51pm)
If you basically agree with the simple point I'm making that these games are adventure games, instead of wasting your (and my time) picking apart my comments, why don't you correct me by coming up with the reasons why you believe they are adventure games.
I told you, I like getting on your nerves.
I don't think my points were worthless and it wasn't my intention to diminish your comments. But still, I find them weak in a sense that they're too relative. Like when you say "they're played by experienced members of this forum" - what's an experienced gamer to you? What if an experienced gamer to you is someone who started playing Myst? What if, actually, Myst isn't an adventure? Then you would be saying something like "Myst is an adventure game because games like Myst are played by experienced gamers who play Myst-like games". Do you know what I mean? It's a self-referenced point.
I'd love to hear other people's comments but they're probably too bored by now.
As for why I think Myst is actually an adventure, well... it has puzzles. Check. It has a story somewhere on the background, very well hidden. Check. It has interaction as minimal as it is. Check. I'd say that's enough.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 7:47pm |
| Deleted User | I totally disagree
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 8:39pm |
| Deleted User | Sir Funkenstein, you obviously have far too much time on your hands.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 9:52pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (20 FEB 2003 2:32pm)
oh so according to your criteria, a genderless character can have no character development, hence 90% of txt advs have actually no char.dev!
I'm no longer sure we mean the same thing by identity, character development, and mission.
For me, identity = all kinds of factual stuff, like name, education, physical appearance, job, marital status, age. Including gender. Character/personality = traits, abilities, talents, more or less permanent qualities that distinguish the player from other people, from NPCs. Character development = hmm... game life taking its toll, I guess. For better or for worse. Mission = the purpose, goals that the player has to reach in the game.
For example, King Graham has some identity, a mission (finding a wife for instance) and hardly any personality. I don't remember any character development. As-Sayf (Legend of the Prophet and the Assassin) has a clear identity, lots of personality, a mission and his character development is awsome.
On a scale from 0 to 100, let's lump all these aspects together and put Myst at one extreme: no identity, no personality, no clear-cut mission. At the other extreme is Tex Murphy (unless you can think of a better example). You know everything about the guy, he has a very distinctive personality and there's character development too: from ethical softie to hard-boiled cynical PI. Where would YOU put GoT on that scale? All you know is that you want to become a member of the Guild, so I'd give GoT a score of 5 for its mission (which you call character, but that doesn't make any difference.)
that's what YOU think... because of course in GoT you had an identity... identity btw does not mean you know your name, age, ssn etc... and you had also character and personallity...
Please describe this character and personality.
you just didn't have a gender (which, come to think of it, happens also on most 1st person advs... so do they also lack character development?
Yes, I think so. I may change my mind about this, but right now I can only remember hybrid 1st person adventures with char. dev., meaning that have plenty of 3rd person cutscenes.
... and of course because Aya's "subjective" opinion is that myst is a puzzle game, it's not
Tssk... I never said that, Miss Aya, you're twisting my words. >
or maybe is it that the "objective" truth is only what certain ppl are willing to accept?
I wish you would answer the one burning question: where does this objective truth come from? What is it based on? If you still don't feel like doing that, humour me and define the terms "objective" and "subjective".
Betje
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 9:58pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (20 FEB 2003 4:07pm)
oh and smth else about my subjectivity... you seem to avoid (like an eel in a bucket of snot! ) my stupid invaders/silent hill example... why? becuase you know you "won't have a case" if you try to respond to that...
Answering your own questions instead of mine? No, the answer is very simple: I have not played these games, I don't know anything about them. I was trying to find common ground by choosing GoT as a case in point, because we both like it.
cause i'm not the one categorizing games accroding to my preferences...
There you go again... subjective opinions are not the same thing as personal preferences.
Betje
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 10:32pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Betje (20 FEB 2003 9:52pm)
Tssk... I never said that, Miss Aya, you're twisting my words. >
But Betje, Aya is not a "Miss". He's a guy and his real name is Panayotis
I forgot my sig.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 11:05pm |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (20 FEB 2003 1:30am)
NO WAY! Siamese Dream is THE top (followed by gish, mellon collie and pisces iscariot)... if you want to argue that, take it to the music thread!
I dont want to argue - I dont know how I can call myself a Pumpkins fan!!!!!
You are right - Siamese Dream is easily the best album ever! ( just thinking about Disarm sends a tingle down my spine and brings back good (and bad) memories).
I saw them at Glastonbury 97 and they were awesome!!!!
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 11:46pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (20 FEB 2003 7:04pm)
Like when you say "they're played by experienced members of this forum" - what's an experienced gamer to you? What if an experienced gamer to you is someone who started playing Myst? What if, actually, Myst isn't an adventure? Then you would be saying something like "Myst is an adventure game because games like Myst are played by experienced gamers who play Myst-like games". Do you know what I mean? It's a self-referenced point.
As for why I think Myst is actually an adventure, well... it has puzzles. Check. It has a story somewhere on the background, very well hidden. Check. It has interaction as minimal as it is. Check. I'd say that's enough.
Well, I understand that you're getting some jollies out of yanking my chain, but I'm a well known glutton for punishment.
But, when you have something like 'the definition of an adventure game' that can be somewhat subjective, it is relevant when gamers who've played a lot of those games (along with other adventure-type games eg. 3rd person) perceive them as adventure games. Along those same lines, you've given above what you feel are characteristics of an adventure game. I could respond (according to your reasoning) that maybe your definitions mean nothing because maybe you started with Myst for all I know. But the fact is, as someone who has an interest in these games, has played a lot of them and is generally considered knowledgable about the subject, your definitions do have credibility. Which is the point!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 21 FEB 2003 at 1:23am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (20 FEB 2003 9:58pm)
Answering your own questions instead of mine? No, the answer is very simple: I have not played these games, I don't know anything about them. I was trying to find common ground by choosing GoT as a case in point, because we both like it.
you mean if i said Ingrid's Back over Riven instead, all this would never have taken place?!
ok since this was the only reason i continued (remember i said i stop at some point - i even waved!) i'll give you details
advs i hated:
stupid invaders (for which i'd probably say give me myst over s.i.! :) is the usual 2d cartoonish point'n'click adventure... very typical, you don't even have to see it
i also hate hitchcock, which i think you know... finally i thought mystery of the druids was good at first but eventually got very boring, i think you know that too
games i loved:
parasite eves, silent hills and resident evils... i assume you know the latter, and the first ones are in the same fashion... all those games have adv elements
my point: why if i'm judging by personal preferences or subjective opinions or call-it-what-you-like do i keep calling the ones i hate "adventures" and the ones i love "not adventures"? where is my "subjectivity" when it comes to every other game around? how come i'm "subjective" when judging myst, but objective when it comes to all other games? is it maybe (i'm just ass[/black]uming here) that myst-lovers are so fanatical they don't even want to hear anything different than the idea of the game that is engraved in their mind? how come nearly everyone who didn't like myst call it a puzzle game? is EVERYONE subjective then, everyone apart from the myst-lovers?
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 21 FEB 2003 at 1:35am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (20 FEB 2003 9:52pm)
Tssk... I never said that, Miss Aya, you're twisting my words. >
i didn't twist any of your words... you WERE saying that i'm judging subjectivly... i've talked about this above
(btw michal, aya is a female... you can't say mr aya! )
I wish you would answer the one burning question: where does this objective truth come from? What is it based on? If you still don't feel like doing that, humour me and define the terms "objective" and "subjective".
unless i don't understand the question well, i think i already answered that, but anyway... an objective truth, is a FACT, something that IS THERE, whether you (whoever) like it or not... there are ppl you know that say the earth is flat (i think they also have a community!)... the fact that they think that doesn't change the OBJECTIVE truth, that the earth is NOT flat.... on the other hand one can say "i don't like coffee"... that's a subjective truth to that person... it doesn't mean that coffee tastes good or bad, cause there's no such thing as objective taste... so, regarding myst, you say you like it... fine... i say i don't like it... fine... i'm not saying noone should like the game (although i wonder how one could! ) and you're probably not saying that everyone should like it... all those subjective opinions do NOT change the objective genre of the game... which is a puzzle game... and the same thing applies to all other games: unreal, fifa, starcraft, stupid invaders etc etc... some like them, some don't... their genres are "fixed" no matter what
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 21 FEB 2003 at 1:48am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (20 FEB 2003 11:05pm)
I saw them at Glastonbury 97 and they were awesome!!!!
i saw them on 1998 here... i was right in front of d'arcy (i think she was sending me kisses! )... i loved the show but i really wanted to see them during the siamese dream era... i've seen several vids and had 20-30 live bootlegs from that era and calling them amazing would be an understatement!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 21 FEB 2003 at 2:00am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (21 FEB 2003 1:48am)
i saw them on 1998 here... i was right in front of d'arcy (i think she was sending me kisses! )... i loved the show but i really wanted to see them during the siamese dream era... i've seen several vids and had 20-30 live bootlegs from that era and calling them amazing would be an understatement!
I'm sorry Aya but ther is no way D'arcy was sending kisses to you - her heart)and body) already belonged to me!
I was in the front row being trampled by crusties just to get close to The Goddess of Rock
And yes, to see them during the Siamese Dream period would be.. orgasmic!!!!
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 21 FEB 2003 at 2:00am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (21 FEB 2003 1:35am)
(btw michal, aya is a female... you can't say mr aya! )
Are you female?
I forgot my sig.
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| 21 FEB 2003 at 2:07am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (21 FEB 2003 2:00am)
I'm sorry Aya but ther is no way D'arcy was sending kisses to you - her heart)and body) already belonged to me!
I was in the front row being trampled by crusties just to get close to The Goddess of Rock
i was standing (unmovably!) right in front of her.. and i remember, along with the kisses, she told me to tell JP to dream on!
And yes, to see them during the Siamese Dream period would be.. orgasmic!!!!
Exactly the word!!!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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