| 19 FEB 2003 at 3:04am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (19 FEB 2003 2:37am)
I told you I would play it, and I will.
hey i didn't say that aggressively... i just rembered you calling me persistant, and found out you're just like me!
Aya, you are as slippery as an eel in a bucket of snot.
although the word snot is there, the whole sentence is actually a compliment! so thank you!
I liked the "before you say anything else on this" part best. Why can't you just answer a simple question about the Guild of Thieves? Because you know I do have a point? (The point being that your criteria are highly subjective.)
no... i can't answer a simple question with the details you want (but i already answered it simply) because i haven't played GoT for years, so i don't remember every single detail... what i do remember though is that there were other ppl around (your guild master first of all), that your character had a personality, you knew who he was, you could identify with him, that the puzzles did not limit themselves to lever-moving (i remember that da[/black]mn rat race puzzle)
and i insist (again) on dr. brain because it's the core of myst... have a single goal and go from room to room solving each room's puzzle to proceed (moving levers among other things!)... a puzzle game with a goal! so i want to see what ppl who think myst is an adv think dr brain is
No, it's not pointless. Yes, everyone is entitled to their very subjective opinion as long as they don't present it as objective truth.
there IS an objective truth... which is, is no longer my intention to talk about (it's 6 am and i'm not mulder)... the objective truth has nothing to do with subjective opinion... if one's opinion is that Unreal II is an adventure, it's his/her's opinion... the truth will still be that Unreal II is a fps and he/she can think whatever he/she wants
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 3:06am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 2:50am)
Show me where I said "resent."
MrLipid, I'll not re-read the whole thread and find the specific post where you said that. You might not have said exactly the word "resent" but you stated very clearly your thoughts about those games.
Called them "really, really ugly" but that phrase is not exactly a synonym for "resent."
:
But I did make statements about enjoying these games.
I might have mis-interpreted your post since I was still addressing SirDave's comments about the "definition of adventures". You have all the right in the world to say "I enjoyed this game" (heck, I enjoy playing Galaga and I'm pretty aware it's a piece of crap) but you might not have the right to say "this is the definitive adventure game".
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 3:20am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 3:06am)
MrLipid, I'll not re-read the whole thread and find the specific post where you said that. You might not have said exactly the word "resent" but you stated very clearly your thoughts about those games.
I did state my thoughts clearly and they had nothing to do with resentment.
Let's review. You claimed that simple things are easy to design. Hence, MYST was easy to design and Gabriel Knight, being more complex, was difficult to design.
You asked for a comparison. I suggested that, viewed from the perspective of 2003, that Gabriel Knight was "really, really ugly" and that MYST still looked pretty good. And that creating a game that would look halfway decent ten years after its publication was an impressive accomplishment. An accomplishment that cannot be claimed by Gabriel Knight.
Gabriel Knight is a typical Sierra game of the period. It was new content in an old mold. MYST was something else entirely.
You have all the right in the world to say "I enjoyed this game" (heck, I enjoy playing Galaga and I'm pretty aware it's a piece of crap) but you might not have the right to say "this is the definitive adventure game".
I will make a note to myself never to say, of any title, "this is the definitive adventure game."
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 3:37am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 3:20am)
I did state my thoughts clearly and they had nothing to do with resentment.
Either you're making fun of me or you really don't remember what you write. This discussion is really pointless anyway so let's finish it.
It was Goethe who mumbled something to the effect that context is everything. My context as a neophyte adventure gamer was that the only adventure games I was aware of at the time came from Sierra. Played some of the KQ series and both the Laura Bows. Then along came MYST and The 7th Guest. And that was it for Sierra.
I realized I was not someone who enjoyed watching a cyber stand-in wander around a prerendered screen. As a former animator, I just didn't like trying to relate to someone else's choices about how a character should move. I would find myself critiquing the animation rather than paying attention to the story.
My personal context, both in terms of what I had played and what I once did for a living, inclined me to prefer the style of game represented by MYST.
That post among others.
And if "resent" isn't the right word then I beg you for forgiveness but you're most certainly "bothered" by older games.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 3:46am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Thanks for making my case.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 4:04am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | You might find this funny but you knew what my point was and yet you made me explain it and search in your previous posts. Next time try to be more practical instead of arguing such an irrelevant thing.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 4:17am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 4:04am)
You might find this funny but you knew what my point was and yet you made me explain it and search in your previous posts. Next time try to be more practical instead of arguing such an irrelevant thing.
Excuse me, how do you know that I knew what your point was? I thought I was addressing "your point." I neither "resent" nor am "bothered by" old games. You brought it up and then quoted me and the best you could come up with was "inclined me to prefer." Not exactly "resent" or "bothered."
As for your advice on how I should behave "next time," well, I'll pin that up next to the "this is the definitive adventure game" note.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 9:11am |
| Deleted User | I've been reading over this thread since giving up ages ago - it's like Rael and Aya against the world!
I'm starting to think this thread has become more about one-upmanship than anything else. People's feelings about stuff are so strong, it's like arguing against brick walls and not trying to understand eachother.
It's the ADVG version of Bush and Blair.
I'd join in and poke holes in people's comments, although I think my previous posts have made my voice quite clear.
Suffice to say, I'm with Lipid, Dave and Betje on this one... but I don't want to get involved anymore!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 11:35am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | MrLipid, now you're telling me old adventures doesn't bother you. For one minute I though you were serious but now you're definitely making fun of me. And that wasn't "the best" I could come up with, it was really the first post I stumbled upon. Anyway, whoever wants to waste some time reading the last pages of the Myst-thread will understand exactly what I mean. I'm done with this. -
Monkeybone, Aya Brea and I are discussing different things. In fact, I was mostly discussing with SirDave because I love getting on his nerves. Let's review:
I said the following (as an analogy to post-Myst and pre-Myst games) -
Suppose you say "all the music I've ever listened to is '90s stuff and it's the BEST and DEFINITIVE music ever". Of course, I'll argue you to death because '70s music is decidely better.
Which SirDave agreed because I never said that Myst wasn't an adventure game.
Then I asked the following -
A guy that started listening (and only listened) '90s stuff will have a very difficult time getting into '70s stuff, right? So, does that make his claiming about '90s being the definitive music true?
And I'm still waiting for my answer
Actually, all this talk about the music analogy takes me to the following thought - adventure games "died" because of the same reason rock "died". New gamers/listeners started consuming new music/games that pushed rock/adventures in the background. It's just a new generation of consumers, that's all.
However, I also said before that Myst (adventure or not) did hurt the genre (directly or indirectly) and the reason is that Myst provided an easy and convenient format to make adventures. The result was tons of uninspired Myst-clones that turned away even some of the new fans the original brought to the genre whom then stereotyped adventure games as merely Myst-clones.
And before anyone starts asking me if I believe my posts or saying that I'm against the world, try addressing those points :
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 11:42am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 11:35am)
Actually, all this talk about the music analogy takes me to the following thought - adventure games "died" because of the same reason rock "died". New gamers/listeners started consuming new music/games that pushed rock/adventures in the background. It's just a new generation of consumers, that's all.
However, I also said before that Myst (adventure or not) did hurt the genre (directly or indirectly) and the reason is that Myst provided an easy and convenient format to make adventures. The result was tons of uninspired Myst-clones that turned away even some of the new fans the original brought to the genre whom then stereotyped adventure games as merely Myst-clones.
And before anyone starts asking me if I believe my posts or saying that I'm against the world, try addressing those points :
I am with you Rael!!!
I completely agree with your ideas
Myst made a breakthrough of great magnitude but noone was ever able compete with it!
It's by far the best of its kind!! (I really love this game)
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:07pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 11:35am)
MrLipid, now you're telling me old adventures doesn't bother you. For one minute I though you were serious but now you're definitely making fun of me. And that wasn't "the best" I could come up with, it was really the first post I stumbled upon. Anyway, whoever wants to waste some time reading the last pages of the Myst-thread will understand exactly what I mean. I'm done with this. -
Not telling you now nor any other time that old adventures bother me. And not making fun of you.
I spent a few moments over my morning coffee reading the last pages of the Myst-thread and nothing resembling what you seem to feel is there is actually there. At least I couldn't find it.
What I did find was an attempt to jump from one premise to another as the arguments flowing from each premise were found wanting. "Simple stuff is easy to design" gave way to "simple stuff is easy to design...if you have a great idea" and then the "great idea" premise gave way to "previously established concepts." "Previously established concepts" then threatened to turn into a discussion of how well concepts are executed.
At that point, I Was An Atomic Mutant stomped across my monitor for the first time and I decided it would be more fun to flatten fake buildings than to hope that the discussion might stay on track. No telling what might have shown up after the execution premise.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:09pm |
| Deleted User | Rael - Soz! However, I don't blame any game for any lazy developing, I blame the developers! It's their fault, yet I do believe you're correct in stating that Myst's concept was so simple (in practise, not creation) that others latched onto it.
On another note though, I have never noticed "dumb" magazines (who in some sense are more responsible than most for AG's suceeding in the general publics eye)never linking Myst directly to the 3rd Person adventure shortage.
BTW - rock never died, come to England and listen to Feeder! Zwan's new album is also great!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:46pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (19 FEB 2003 9:10am)
Iit's like Rael and Aya against the world!
but of course monkeybone... a forum topic in a forum with 885 members can be considered "the world" :
Suffice to say, I'm with Lipid, Dave and Betje on this one... but I don't want to get involved anymore!
you're right... alkis (another one against "the world" told me weeks ago that he doesn't bother anymore cause it's hopeless and it's wearing him out... and now i eventually see his point :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:48pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (19 FEB 2003 1:09pm)
Zwan's new album is also great!
i HAVE to listen to that... being a huge pumpkins fan from gish up to mellon collie (kinda liked adore, didn't like machina), i'm very curious how billy's music sounds right now, 10+ years after gish
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:28pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 1:07pm)
At that point, I Was An Atomic Mutant stomped across my monitor for the first time and I decided it would be more fun to flatten fake buildings than to hope that the discussion might stay on track. No telling what might have shown up after the execution premise.
Perhaps you need to re-read those last pages then. You implied that a game only needs to rework previously established concepts to be a good one and I demonstrated with adequate examples you were wrong. Since you brought up the Atomic Mutant stuff, I assumed you accepted my arguments.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:30pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (19 FEB 2003 1:09pm)
BTW - rock never died, come to England and listen to Feeder! Zwan's new album is also great!
Right - next you're going to tell me that the adventure genre is alive and kicking as ever :
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 3:12pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 2:28pm)
Perhaps you need to re-read those last pages then. You implied that a game only needs to rework previously established concepts to be a good one and I demonstrated with adequate examples you were wrong. Since you brought up the Atomic Mutant stuff, I assumed you accepted my arguments.
You said: I'll clarify my position again: Myst was a reworking of already established concepts.
I said: And even if MYST was (is) a "reworking of already established concepts," so what? Why wasn't Sierra able to sweep those "already established concepts" into a pile and remain in the adventure business? If the process is just a matter of "reworking already established concepts," how do we explain why so many games turn out so badly? For those playing the home game, what I say here is 180 degrees from what is being claimed my remarks implied.)
You said: Because the quality of the games has nothing to do with the concept.
KQ5 was a lame game with an old concept.
GK1 was an excellent game with an old concept.
KQ1 was lame game with a radical new concept.
Bad Mojo was an excellent game with a radical new concept.
See the difference?
I say: Nope. What I do see is an effort at sleight of hand. Instead of talking about everything that came previously in the thread, the discussion has now been shifted to personal statements regarding overall game quality and a substitution of concept for format.
GK1 was the typical Sierra format of the period. Bad Mojo was a third person (roach) title that used keyboard controls. Certainly not a radical new format or a radical new concept. The lack of dialogue or inventory hardly qualifies as radical. Not after the release of a game based on "already established concepts" three years earlier.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 3:44pm |
| Deleted User | OFF TOPIC -
Aya - Mary Star Of The Sea is the best Corgan Album since Mellon Collie - it's basically the best bits of that! Melodic Rock, with hooks from hell!
And Rael - Sounds like you aint heard the new Foo Fighters stuff, Zwan, Feeder (you mst check them out Aya, if you like SP and the FF - rave reviews from the press here), Coldplay's new stuff, Queens Of The Stone Age, The Strokes, The Coral, The Music (I hate them, but others may disagree), The Hives (great singles, crap album) etc. etc. Look up xfm.co.uk for their radio section and get listenin', boyee...
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 4:11pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 3:12pm)
I say: Nope. What I do see is an effort at sleight of hand. Instead of talking about everything that came previously in the thread, the discussion has now been shifted to personal statements regarding overall game quality and a substitution of concept for format.
I was just answering your questions. Now, can you tell me exactly where I substituted concept for format? Before you ask: yes, I say Myst is an old concept with a new format.
And, I'm very sorry, but if you can't see Bad Mojo was a totally different concept than anything seen before, this discussion is pointless.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 4:13pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (19 FEB 2003 3:44pm)
And Rael - Sounds like you aint heard the new...
Yes, Monkeybone, but I'm not saying that there isn't a rock industry! That would be like saying there isn't an adventure games industry (WTF are we doing here then?). But clearly, rock is no longer a mainstream genre.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 4:20pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (19 FEB 2003 3:04am)
although the word snot is there, the whole sentence is actually a compliment!
It's a Dutch expression, is all.
what i do remember though is that there were other ppl around (your guild master first of all), that your character had a personality, you knew who he was, you could identify with him, that the puzzles did not limit themselves to lever-moving
Your memory doesn't serve you well. Yes, there were a few other people, as there were in Myst and Riven. No, you were a genderless player. No personality, no background. This is an objective, observable fact, not my subjective opinion.
This isn't about Guild of Thieves, of course. We agree that it's a fine adventure. But GoT clearly shows that your criteria suck.
there IS an objective truth... which is, is no longer my intention to talk about (it's 6 am and i'm not mulder)... the objective truth has nothing to do with subjective opinion...
I question your objective truth. I have no idea what it is based on and you either cannot of will not tell me. References to game publishers and designers are treated with contempt. Polls are "childish" and new gamers don't know what they're talking about. So what is left? Something you vaguely call "common sense". YOUR common sense, not mine. Back full circle.
Betje
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 4:28pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 4:10pm)
And, I'm very sorry, but if you can't see Bad Mojo was a totally different concept than anything seen before, this discussion is pointless.
What makes controlling a roach as a cyber stand-in totally different from controlling, say, King Graham or Gabriel Knight?
You see the character you are controlling in an environment, you interact with the environment through that character, you solve puzzles using what powers you have and eventually you reach the end. How is this totally (or even partially) different from any other third person game?
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 4:58pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Right, MrLipid, so now you're telling me every third-person adventure follows the very same concept. Or aren't you telling that? I can't tell really. Of course, with that line of reasoning, I could say "well, every adventure has the same concept: solve puzzles". But that's a load bull and you know that (I hope).
I'll explain anyway - in Bad Mojo you control a roach. Name any other game where you control a roach. I know, you're going to say "but Gabriel is as unique as a roach". Don't bother, that's absolutely non-sense.
It seems to me that you're the one who is shifting to personal statements as, like you said before (or didn't you say that?), you prefer first-person games to third-person games.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 5:31pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 4:57pm)
Right, MrLipid, so now you're telling me every third-person adventure follows the very same concept. Or aren't you telling that? I can't tell really. Of course, with that line of reasoning, I could say "well, every adventure has the same concept: solve puzzles". But that's a load bull and you know that (I hope).
Sorry to be so vague.
In a third person adventure game, one can see the character one is controlling on the screen. It could be Kate Walker, it could be a roach. As long as the player does nothing, the character does nothing. The character can explore the environment and solve puzzles with whatever abilities they have. Kate can stuff her surprisingly capacious jacket full of gears and keys and the roach in Bad Mojo can push a sleeping pill off the top of a radio. Eventually, assuming all obstacles have been overcome, the end of the tale is reached.
I'll explain anyway - in Bad Mojo you control a roach. Name any other game where you control a roach. I know, you're going to say "but Gabriel is as unique as a roach". Don't bother, that's absolutely non-sense.
So am I to understand that outward appearances rather than the basic mechanics of gameplay determine whether or not a game is unique? Would a spider or praying mantis game be more or less unique than Bad Mojo or Gabriel Knight? I suppose more unique than GK and less unique than BM. Or something.
It seems to me that you're the one who is shifting to personal statements as, like you said before (or didn't you say that?), you prefer first-person games to third-person games.
Not even sure what you are talking about here. I was talking about gameplay.
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