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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:06am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 1:00am)
In fact, your fact is quite irrelevant - so what if a company called "The Adventure Company" is marketing games as "adventures"? Does that mean their games have to be adventures? What does that have to do with anything??
Rael ma man, sometimes I don't think even you believe your own posts!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:11am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 1:06am)
Rael ma man, sometimes I don't think even you believe your own posts!
Could you explain to me very carefuly what's wrong with that post? Because that's exactly what you said.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:16am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 1:02am)
And if you're saying it does, then you're insinuating that those of us who look on Myst, Riven and the like as not only adventure games, but examples of definitive adventure games are just as stupid as those in the examples above.
Not stupid but definitely not knowledgeable. I know this sounds harsh but here's my reason:
Suppose you say "all the music I've ever listened to is '90s stuff and it's the BEST and DEFINITIVE music ever". Of course, I'll argue you to death because '70s music is decidely better (I wonder how many people will disagree with that). If this analogy sounds stupid to you, well, it's quite stupid but that's a fact - like it or not.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:24am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 1:02am)
You were on me like a fly on honey. Got yer answer in while I was still editing my original post!
what did you expect?!
By the way, pointing out that a few yahoos don't know what kind of a game Baldur's Gate is, or think that Britney Spears is some sort of talented diva like Mariah or Whitney doesn't have anything to do with this. And if you're saying it does, then you're insinuating that those of us who look on Myst, Riven and the like as not only adventure games, but examples of definitive adventure games are just as stupid as those in the examples above
i didn't use the word stupid... YOU did! (examples of definitive adv games............... :)
and my example was only pointing out the uselessness of bringing "marketing" as an example to prove a point... the arguement that a company promotes a game as an "adventure" is as valid as the music industry promoting britney as "rock"
Again, I don't have any problem with those who don't like Myst, Riven etc. (although I feel sorry for them ). But I do think they have a credibility problem when they announce that they're not adventure games.
well it's your opinion to think myst is an adventure... i don't say it's not because i don't like it, i say it because it isn't... Stupid Invaders? i didn't like either (i hate it even more than myst!), but it IS an adventure... Silent Hill? i LOVE it... but it's NOT an adventure... personal preferences have NOTHING to do with common sense
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:26am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 1:16am)
Suppose you say "all the music I've ever listened to is '90s stuff and it's the BEST and DEFINITIVE music ever". Of course, I'll argue you to death because '70s music is decidely better (I wonder how many people will disagree with that). If this analogy sounds stupid to you, well, it's quite stupid but that's a fact - like it or not.
EARTHSHAKING ANNOUNCMENT! RAEL and I AGREE ON SOMETHING: '70s music was better than '90s stuff. It had more original melodies, thoughtful lyrics, many more talented artists and more than one darn good track on each record!
But your analogy to what I'm griping about doesn't fit. It would fit, if you stated that the '90s stuff shouldn't be called music. (Well actually, I personally don't think pure rap is music but that's a whole different discussion).
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:31am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 1:25am)
But your analogy to what I'm griping about doesn't fit. It would fit, if you stated that the '90s stuff shouldn't be called music. (Well actually, I personally don't think pure rap is music but that's a whole different discussion).
well music has genres and so does gaming... noone said myst is not a game! we just placed it to its corresponding genre! (i agree about your rap statement though!)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:31am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (19 FEB 2003 1:24am)
well it's your opinion to think myst is an adventure.....personal preferences have NOTHING to do with common sense
Well, all I can say is that if the endpoint of this is that the Myst/Riven genre are not adventure games as a matter of common sense, then 'common' has taken on a whole new definition because you're in the very decided minority on this issue!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:34am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (18 FEB 2003 11:49pm)
SirDave you seem very affected by marketing and inet sites instead of forming your own opinion... rael responded perfectly
Betje i wanted to comment to what you said but........ i can't do this anymore! i'm tired of this constant debate that leads nowhere...
Copout, baby!! Cheering your friend on while claiming you're so very tired of this discussion. Tsssss...
So... who do I see about this rather serious business of The Guild of Thieves not being an adventure game after all?
and my opinion is not just mine, it's shared by more ppl than you think... so i don't think my personal preferences have anything to do with this
Right! And MY opinion is also shared by more people than you think... and I think personal preferences have EVERYTHING to do with this.
Betje
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:35am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | SirDave, you know perfectly I never ever said Myst wasn't an adventure game (I only wanted to prove your previous arguments weren't valid).
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:36am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 1:31am)
Well, all I can say is that if the endpoint of this is that the Myst/Riven genre are not adventure games as a matter of common sense, then 'common' has taken on a whole new definition because you're in the very decided minority on this issue!
as long as you haven't EVERYONE's opinion you can't really say who's the minority can you? myst has sold 5.000.000 copies... there are definately at least that many pirate copies around so there's probably more than 10.000.000 who played it... and you have the opinion of how many ppl? 10? 100? 1000? and you can say i'm the minority from that? so it's pretty obvious you misjudge everything so your views are not a surprise to me and cannot be taken that seriously
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:39am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Now, SirDave, since you somehow understood my point - a guy that started listening (and only listened) '90s stuff will have a very difficult time getting into '70s stuff, right? So, does that make his claiming about '90s being the definitive music true?
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:40am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (19 FEB 2003 1:33am)
Copout, baby!! Cheering your friend on while claiming you're so very tired of this discussion. Tsssss...
i got carried away what can i say... i'm inexcusable [img]users.panafonet.gr/pantex/blush.gif[/img]
So... who do I see about this rather serious business of The Guild of Thieves not being an adventure game after all?
*sigh* me maybe! but not right now... i feel exhausted! :
Right! And MY opinion is also shared by more people than you think... and I think personal preferences have EVERYTHING to do with this.
i know it's shared by more ppl than i think... read my copies-sold example about this... and also read my stupid invaders/silent hill example about personal preferences... they have NOTHING to do with it
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:42am |
| Deleted User |
Quoteon't worry Aya- I haven't left you out:
if you had i'd be very offended!
I know just how you feel, Aya! Yes, I do, really!
But I'm very glad you're continuing this "i'm tired of this constant debate that leads nowhere" with Sir Dave.
So.. who do I see about this very disturbing news that The Guild of Thieves is not an adventure game after all?
Betje
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:45am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Rael (18 FEB 2003 10:38pm)
Uh-oh, Rael will argue with SirDave
Tomb Raider was also marketed as an adventure game :
Many adventure game fanatics played Deus Ex and stuff like Baldur's Gate :
JA also reviewed NOLF :
Sorry, not enough reasons to call them adventure games
I have some very upsetting news: The Guild of Thieves has turned out to be a puzzle game! What does that mean to the genre?
Betje
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:47am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (19 FEB 2003 1:35am)
as long as you haven't EVERYONE's opinion you can't really say who's the minority can you? myst has sold 5.000.000 copies... there are definately at least that many pirate copies around so there's probably more than 10.000.000 who played it... and you have the opinion of how many ppl? 10? 100? 1000? and you can say i'm the minority from that? so it's pretty obvious you misjudge everything so your views are not a surprise to me and cannot be taken that seriously
It was you that said that 'personal preferences have nothing to do with common sense', as if the only ones with common sense are those taking your position. What kind of response did you expect?
I'm sorry if you're offended at being called in the minority here, but it's a fact. Feel free to run any poll you want as to whether the games in question are Adventure Games. Ask the reviewers on this or any other adventure game forum. Ask the publishers who've spent millions on developing these games. Again, you may not agree with their responses, but you will be outvoted!
Anyway, on lighter note- I understand you're writing this from Greece. Ever thought how incredible it is that 2 people can be carrying on a lively discussion 8-10 thousand miles from each other (I'm near the U.S. west coast). What a wonderful thing!!!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:48am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (19 FEB 2003 1:39am)
i got carried away what can i say... i'm inexcusable [img]users.panafonet.gr/pantex/blush.gif[/img]
*sigh* me maybe! but not right now... i feel exhausted! :
i know it's shared by more ppl than i think... read my copies-sold example about this... and also read my stupid invaders/silent hill example about personal preferences... they have NOTHING to do with it
Yes, yes. Why don't you just tell me how much you value my opinion again.
So... who do I see about The Guild of Thieves being a puzzle game according to YOUR definition?
Betje
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:52am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Having dropped into this thread from time to time, I think I finally understand the basic issue. That is, what constitutes an adventure game. And why it died. Or didn't.
An adventure game requires that the player be able to see themself (third person), that the player be able to chat with cyber puppets within the game (dialogue), that the character be able to solve puzzles by applying items found somewhere else in the game (inventory), that events unfold in a manner that would not be unfamiliar to most non-experimental novelists (linear plots) and that there be some sort of transformation of the lead character based on the events of the story (emotional growth).
Fail to fulfill any of these requirements and the game, no matter how good, is not an adventure.
Dark Fall fails because it is first person, non-linear, dialogue-free and there is no character development.
Bad Mojo fails because it is dialogue-free and there is no inventory.
Titanic: Adventure Out of Time fails because it is first person and non-linear.
NOIR: A Shadowy Thriller fails because it is first person, non-linear and there is no dialogue.
Sam 'n' Max fails because there is no character development.
Bad Day On The Midway fails because it is first person(s), non-linear, there is no dialogue and there is no inventory.
Gadget fails because it is first person, there is no dialogue and no character development.
Timelapse fails because it is first person, there is no dialogue and no character development.
Law and Order: Dead on the Money fails because it is first person and there is no character development.
Post Mortem fails because it is first person and there is no character development.
All of the Nancy Drew games fail because they are first person and there is no character development.
Clue Chronicles: Fatal Illusion fails because it is first person and there is no character development.
Robot City fails because it is first person and there is no character development.
Obsidian fails because it is first person and there is no character development.
And so on and so on.
No wonder the Adventure Game industry died. How can any industry sustain so many failures? Or maybe it didn't die and there are more than a few gamers who have been enjoying some of the titles listed above. Whether or not these game fulfill the definition of an adventure game, they certainly felt like adventures. And whether or not the lead character was changed based on the experience, I, as a player, certainly was.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:03am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Well, MrLipid, I know you resent old adventure games because of their blocky graphics, lame characters, clumsy interfaces and an inventory (what a nasty thing!) but those are the games that defined the genre. Unless you play them (and you admited you only played some Sierra stuff) you can't make such statements. Sorry about the harshness but I'm trying to be as reasonable as possible.
And (stating this clear again) I consider every single game named on this thread an adventure game (hope no-one mentioned Pandora's Box). Those games you listed were adventures that failed or succeded because of specific problems.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:04am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Whew! The cavalry arrived just in time. Thanks MrLipid!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:10am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | answers to all at once cause i'm getting REALLY tired:
SirDave:
i have no problem being the minority but your poll idea is plain childish... you can ask EVERYONE who played myst and get your stats if you wish
MrLipid:
NOONE said first person doesn't mean adventure (and i also said there were 1st person advs before myst) so you can strike that out
Betje:
sheesh you're more persistent than i am trying to convince you to play ingrid's back!
yes the guild of thieves is an adventure... iirc (it's been years you know) you didn't just move around pulling levers... but before you say anything else on this i invite you (and everyone) AGAIN to play and tell me about dr. brain... and i insist on that, because that's a game that resembles myst (not visualy of course) but "the majority" considers it a puzzle game... oh yeah i forgot, it was promoted as a puzzle game :... but really, everyone, tell me what you think about dr. brain
btw betje i didn't want to leave you out but i trully didn't want to continue, i just couldn't resist! now i'll really try and step down... this discussion is really pointless... and it doesn't matter anyway what everyone thinks, it's his/her right to think whatever he/she wants
[img]http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/85565.gif[/img]
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:21am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 2:03am)
Well, MrLipid, I know you resent old adventure games because of their blocky graphics, lame characters, clumsy interfaces and an inventory (what a nasty thing!) but those are the games that defined the genre. Unless you play them (and you admited you only played some Sierra stuff) you can't make such statements. Sorry about the harshness but I'm trying to be as reasonable as possible.
Where have I ever said I resent old adventure games? And why is it that I can't make statements about enjoying the games I listed? Is there some sort of "Adventure Degree" that must be earned by playing the so-called classics before someone is allowed to comment on what they do and don't like? o I have to go to "Adventure School" to earn my "Adventure Credentials" before I can talk about games I enjoy that involve exploration and puzzle solving?
And (stating this clear again) I consider every single game named on this thread an adventure game (hope no-one mentioned Pandora's Box). Those games you listed were adventures that failed or succeded because of specific problems.
Oh, so they were adventure games. Great. So if games that failed to fulfill the definition of adventure games succeeded, what did they succeed as? Puzzle games with adventure elements? And, for those who enjoyed them, does it really matter?
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:25am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (19 FEB 2003 2:10am)
answers to all at once cause i'm getting REALLY tired:
So sorry.
MrLipid:
NOONE said first person doesn't mean adventure (and i also said there were 1st person advs before myst) so you can strike that out
And can I do that with inventory and character development, too?
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:36am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 2:21am)
Where have I ever said I resent old adventure games?
The Myst thread.
And why is it that I can't make statements about enjoying the games I listed?
That's not what you said.
Is there some sort of "Adventure Degree" that must be earned by playing the so-called classics before someone is allowed to comment on what they do and don't like? Do I have to go to "Adventure School" to earn my "Adventure Credentials" before I can talk about games I enjoy that involve exploration and puzzle solving?
No and no.
So if games that failed to fulfill the definition of adventure games succeeded, what did they succeed as?
I never said that.
And, for those who enjoyed them, does it really matter?
Not much, of course. But there's a slight difference in claiming "I like this game" and "this game is the definition of adventure" (and I'm not saying that you said that).
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 2:37am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (19 FEB 2003 2:10am)
Betje:
sheesh you're more persistent than i am trying to convince you to play ingrid's back!
I told you I would play it, and I will.
yes the guild of thieves is an adventure... iirc (it's been years you know) you didn't just move around pulling levers...
Agreed.
but before you say anything else on this i invite you (and everyone) AGAIN to play and tell me about dr. brain... and i insist on that, because that's a game that resembles myst (not visualy of course) but "the majority" considers it a puzzle game... oh yeah i forgot, it was promoted as a puzzle game :... but really, everyone, tell me what you think about dr. brain
Aya, you are as slippery as an eel in a bucket of snot. I liked the "before you say anything else on this" part best. Why can't you just answer a simple question about the Guild of Thieves? Because you know I do have a point? (The point being that your criteria are highly subjective.)
btw betje i didn't want to leave you out but i trully didn't want to continue, i just couldn't resist!
Neither could I!
now i'll really try and step down... this discussion is really pointless... and it doesn't matter anyway what everyone thinks, it's his/her right to think whatever he/she wants
No, it's not pointless. Yes, everyone is entitled to their very subjective opinion as long as they don't present it as objective truth.
Betje
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