| 16 FEB 2003 at 11:21pm |
| Deleted User | Jenny100 - I agree with you - for once? I'm certain I usually disagree with you. But like you, my memory's rotten to the core! Ask my girlfriend (mental note - anniversary coming soon)...
Ranndom - I'm not sure what you mean... I aint being curel , but where're you from? I swear your usually quite succinct.. ???
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 11:29pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Monsey_Joe (16 FEB 2003 6:02pm)
Second, when I refer to Myst Clones I refer to games like The Crystal Key (The worst Myst-Clone ever) and similar type of Dreamcatcher games.
You have an absolute right to not like The Crystal Key, but you said previously: "I think the large amount of Myst Clones with a small uninteresting storyline and lots of mechanical twiddleware tend to turn off most people." which seems to say that the majority will not like The Crystal Key and its kind.
I hear this sort of thing frequently as if almost everybody thinks the Myst clones were awful and somehow pulled down the adventure game genre. As far as The Crystal Key goes, here are some quotes from reviews:
4FatChicks (Orb): 'The game...is a classic to give to a novice to enlighten her/him on the joys of adventure gaming.'
Quandry: 'This one is a worthwhile diversion for those of you who appreciate the solitary exploration of Myst-style games...'
UniversalHintSystem: 'If you loved Myst, you will like this game..[it] will provide many hours of enjoyment.'
Adrenaline Vault: 'For a first effort, Earthlight Productions has created a fun, attractive, and satisfying adventure-puzzle experience.'
Again, I'm not trying to change your mind on The Crystal Key. Actually, I'm on a Mission from God to dispel the oft-spoke truism that the Myst clones as a whole were bad. The overall reviews don't indicate anywhere near that!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 11:48pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (16 FEB 2003 10:52pm)
1) 3DFX didn't kill adventure. Explain the popularity (even though you may not like them) of GF, Syberia, Atlantis 3, GK3, TLJ and MI4.
explain the popularity of:
Level 9 advs
Magnetic Scrolls advs
Infocom advs
early Sierra advs
early Lucasarts advs
.....when you come up with such a number of popular 3d advs we can discuss this again... and i say popular, cause if i say "quality" the gap wil expand even more
4) I am a firm believer that if Myst hadn't of done it someone else would've invented a first person mechanical adventure. Can we call the 1st person adventures now, please?
you realise of course that 1st person adventures existed BEFORE myst... WAY before myst... the difference was, they where ADVENTURES (eg chrono quest, the icom advs)
5) It is absolutely 100% naive to think that someone who liked Myst wouldn't like TLJ. If such a person exists, they really do deserve to be locked in a room with nothing but mechanical puzzles.
I loved Myst, well Riven actually, and that doesn't mean that I hate dialogue-based adventures! It's just paranoia!
how come my words are always twisted in here?! :
i said there are ppl who said they didn't like TLJ because it had too much dialog (maybe that was said in the forum too, but it was definately said in the comments of ja's recent best adv poll)... and i said i bet 95% OF THOSE are myst lovers... how did you come up with "whoever likes myst doesn't like TLJ" is beyond my comprehension :
7) Lastly, no-one has "killed" adventure. Tell that to the Benoir Sokal, Ragnar Tournquist and what seems like 60% of European developers, and they'd laugh at you whilst brandishing dollar bills in your face before racing off to the horses in black mercedes benz's.
adventure is "killed" for the adv gamers, not for the designers... of course when a good adv is released it'll sell... it's just that only very few good advs have been released the past years (i would say "if you "lived" the genre thru the late 80s/early 90s you would see the difference" but i'm afraid i'll get the "usual" responses :)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 4:12am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (16 FEB 2003 11:29pm)
As far as The Crystal Key goes, here are some quotes from reviews:
4FatChicks (Orb): 'The game...is a classic to give to a novice to enlighten her/him on the joys of adventure gaming.'
Quandry: 'This one is a worthwhile diversion for those of you who appreciate the solitary exploration of Myst-style games...'
UniversalHintSystem: 'If you loved Myst, you will like this game..[it] will provide many hours of enjoyment.'
Adrenaline Vault: 'For a first effort, Earthlight Productions has created a fun, attractive, and satisfying adventure-puzzle experience.'
I thought Crystal Key stunk, and I liked Myst.
The graphics in Crystal Key were so dark and blurry I couldn't see what I was doing unless I upped my monitor brightness so much it washed out the image. And nothing could be done about the blurriness. Crystal Key has to be one of the ugliest-looking games I've ever played.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 8:35am |
| Deleted User | explain the popularity of:
Level 9 advs
Magnetic Scrolls advs
Infocom advs
early Sierra advs
early Lucasarts advs
.....when you come up with such a number of popular 3d advs we can discuss this again... and i say popular, cause if i say "quality" the gap wil expand even more
We're talking about now, not then. Sure it's less popular, but the genre isn't dead. Just evolved. And "quality"is a subjective term based on opinon. If found Scapeghost to be too difficult and heavily reliant on obscure puzzles, even though many liked it, for instance.
And as for Lucasarts and Sierra, I lived through that era too. There were more games being produced, but the level of technology on the PC was that this sort of game was easier to make.
you realise of course that 1st person adventures existed BEFORE myst... WAY before myst... the difference was, they where ADVENTURES (eg chrono quest, the icom advs)
I'm sure they did. So why don't we call them "icom" clones? Myst may have mechanical puzzles, but it's still an adventure in that it fulfils all the criteria of adventuredom. But less about that, seperate argument.
how come my words are always twisted in here?! :
i said there are ppl who said they didn't like TLJ because it had too much dialog (maybe that was said in the forum too, but it was definately said in the comments of ja's recent best adv poll)... and i said i bet 95% OF THOSE are myst lovers... how did you come up with "whoever likes myst doesn't like TLJ" is beyond my comprehension :
Show me these people. You're guessing.
adventure is "killed" for the adv gamers, not for the designers... of course when a good adv is released it'll sell... it's just that only very few good advs have been released the past years (i would say "if you "lived" the genre thru the late 80s/early 90s you would see the difference" but i'm afraid i'll get the "usual" responses :)
Then I'm afraid you're an individual stuck in the dark ages unwilling to step into the light. The overall quality has declined, but the good games now are much better in terms of design than many, many of the games produced in the past.
I'd rather be here than there.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 1:47pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (17 FEB 2003 8:34am)
We're talking about now, not then. Sure it's less popular, but the genre isn't dead. Just evolved. And "quality"is a subjective term based on opinon. If found Scapeghost to be too difficult and heavily reliant on obscure puzzles, even though many liked it, for instance.
And as for Lucasarts and Sierra, I lived through that era too. There were more games being produced, but the level of technology on the PC was that this sort of game was easier to make.
YOU talked about quantity (unless i got that wrong)... and i wouldn't care if quantity was slightly reduced if the overall quality was kept that high, or even higher, but the past years we got a huge reduction of both quantity and overall quality (except a few brilliant exceptions that stand out)
I'm sure they did. So why don't we call them "icom" clones? Myst may have mechanical puzzles, but it's still an adventure in that it fulfils all the criteria of adventuredom. But less about that, seperate argument.
well that's your opinion... to me, myst fulfils all the criteria of a puzzle game NOT of an adv game... and i only mentioned icom as an example because your post gave me the idea that you think myst was the first 1st person "adventure" ever... and no you can't call anything an icom-clone, cause nothing ever has been released that resembled those advs
Show me these people. You're guessing.
you can search ja to see if you can find the comments to the recent best adv poll... and you can search the forum too (but i said maybe i saw a post - the poll comments are there though)... and i have also heard it, but that can't be proved
Then I'm afraid you're an individual stuck in the dark ages unwilling to step into the light. The overall quality has declined, but the good games now are much better in terms of design than many, many of the games produced in the past.
I'd rather be here than there.
if your definition of an individual stuck in the dark ages is someone who doesn't care about the unimportant supplementary elements of the genre (ie gfx and sfx) then yes, i am stuck in the dark ages... and unfort it's the new generation of "gamers" who led the genre to where it is now, gamers who are only after the visuals ("if it looks and sounds good, it's good" :)... i do agree there have been a few excellent quality advs released the past few years, but only a few, while "in the dark ages" HIGHEST QUALITY advs where released twice a week (so to speak)
so yeah give me KQ3 over KQ8, MI1 over MI4, Simon1 over Simon3D and The Guild Of Thieves over Riven ANYTIME
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 3:11pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (17 FEB 2003 1:46pm)
...it's the new generation of "gamers" who led the genre to where it is now, gamers who are only after the visuals ("if it looks and sounds good, it's good" :)...
So if I understand this correctly, the AG industry died because the new generation of "gamers" outnumbered the old generation of "gamers" and the new generation drove out "quality" games in favor of games that looked and sounded better than the classics.
Or, to put it another way, the industry isn't really dead. It's just producing games the old generation of "gamers" would rather not play.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 3:44pm |
| Deleted User | YOU talked about quantity (unless i got that wrong)... and i wouldn't care if quantity was slightly reduced if the overall quality was kept that high, or even higher, but the past years we got a huge reduction of both quantity and overall quality (except a few brilliant exceptions that stand out)
OK, you're right, I agree, but the quality of the good ones was outstanding. Back in "the day", however, there was just as much cack - if not more - than there is now. Look at the JA+ reviews for proof.
well that's your opinion... to me, myst fulfils all the criteria of a puzzle game NOT of an adv game... and i only mentioned icom as an example because your post gave me the idea that you think myst was the first 1st person "adventure" ever... and no you can't call anything an icom-clone, cause nothing ever has been released that resembled those advs
Puzzle game = tetris, pang, bubble bobble, lemmings etc. etc.
Myst = adventure. Has story, puzzles, rewards for the completion of those puzzles, intrigue, suspenseful atmosphere.
My opinion. Soz if you disagree. (you and I always do though! That what makes this all so fun!)
if your definition of an individual stuck in the dark ages is someone who doesn't care about the unimportant supplementary elements of the genre (ie gfx and sfx) then yes, i am stuck in the dark ages...
And I'm suprised and slightly taken aback you admit it! Good on you though, stick to your guns. At least you got scruples!
and unfort it's the new generation of "gamers" who led the genre to where it is now, gamers who are only after the visuals ("if it looks and sounds good, it's good" :)... i do agree there have been a few excellent quality advs released the past few years, but only a few, while "in the dark ages" HIGHEST QUALITY advs where released twice a week (so to speak)
High quality adventures were NEVER released twice a week. High quality games in general aren't in any genre! And no one thinks if "it looks good, sounds good it is good", otherwise the world will be populated with Rise Of The Robots clones.
And look at the Unreal 2 backlash - sure I like it, but it's obviously isn't what the gaming community in general wanted!
so yeah give me KQ3 over KQ8, MI1 over MI4, Simon1 over Simon3D and The Guild Of Thieves over Riven ANYTIME
Well, fair enough. But you can't argue that as a piece of design, Riven has stood the test of time well, has a beautifully told in-game storyline and immerses you in another world full of intricacies more successfully than any other game to date...
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 4:36pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (17 FEB 2003 3:10pm)
So if I understand this correctly, the AG industry died because the new generation of "gamers" outnumbered the old generation of "gamers" and the new generation drove out "quality" games in favor of games that looked and sounded better than the classics.
Or, to put it another way, the industry isn't really dead. It's just producing games the old generation of "gamers" would rather not play.
the industry is not dead... adventures are (if this made sense - probably it didn't)
and yes "old" gamers had better judgement because their judgement was based on substance not appearance, on which "new" gamers' judgement is based (exception of course exist on both sides)
sorry if you're a new gamer and find this offending, but that's my opinion, formed from things i've heard from ppl i've talked to and read on forums as well as witnessing the genre's downfall (just a small example: simon3d HAD to be 3d, no matter how crap it would end up being, becuase 3d is the trend - and the trends are set by the majority of gamers, who of course are new/young gamers)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 4:47pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (17 FEB 2003 3:44pm)
Puzzle game = tetris, pang, bubble bobble, lemmings etc. etc.
Myst = adventure. Has story, puzzles, rewards for the completion of those puzzles, intrigue, suspenseful atmosphere.
first of all bubble bobble is a platform game!
and yeah, puzzle games can look different... just like the pawn, deja vu, space quest, tlj and grim fandango are different looking adv games
myst was like 11th guest and dr. brain... move around constantly solving puzzles, with no storyline or character development... if you consider those to be adventures then i finally see your point :
My opinion. Soz if you disagree. (you and I always do though! That what makes this all so fun!)
not always... we agree about cartoons and cartoon advs!
And I'm suprised and slightly taken aback you admit it! Good on you though, stick to your guns. At least you got scruples!
why wouldn't i admit it? i didn't admit i live in the dark ages... i agreed i live in YOUR definition of the dark ages!!!
High quality adventures were NEVER released twice a week. High quality games in general aren't in any genre! And no one thinks if "it looks good, sounds good it is good", otherwise the world will be populated with Rise Of The Robots clones.
well i was afraid you'll take the "two weeks" literally! what i meant was the rate high quality advs were released late 80s/early 90s was 5x today's rate
Well, fair enough. But you can't argue that as a piece of design, Riven has stood the test of time well, has a beautifully told in-game storyline and immerses you in another world full of intricacies more successfully than any other game to date...
i can agree to all that... but it's a puzzle game!
pacman stood the test of time well, but i won't agree if someone tells me it's an adv! :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 4:56pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (17 FEB 2003 4:36pm)
the industry is not dead... adventures are (if this made sense - probably it didn't)
and yes "old" gamers had better judgement because their judgement was based on substance not appearance, on which "new" gamers' judgement is based (exception of course exist on both sides)
Pity there were so few of these "old" gamers that their beloved genre was driven into the ditch by the shallow "new" gamers.
sorry if you're a new gamer and find this offending, but that's my opinion, formed from things i've heard from ppl i've talked to and read on forums as well as witnessing the genre's downfall (just a small example: simon3d HAD to be 3d, no matter how crap it would end up being, becuase 3d is the trend - and the trends are set by the majority of gamers, who of course are new/young gamers)
Nah, I'm not offended. I've only been playing for 17 years or so. Started when I was 35.) Obviously way too green to have any sense of how much better the industry used to be. What I am having trouble understanding is how new/young gamers became the majority if they didn't care for the old games? What attracted so many new/young gamers that they were able to completely kill off the "old" adventure and convince the industry to start extruding junk like Syberia?
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 5:48pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (17 FEB 2003 4:56pm)
Pity there were so few of these "old" gamers that their beloved genre was driven into the ditch by the shallow "new" gamers.
Nah, I'm not offended. I've only been playing for 17 years or so. (Started when I was 35.) Obviously way too green to have any sense of how much better the industry used to be. What I am having trouble understanding is how new/young gamers became the majority if they didn't care for the old games? What attracted so many new/young gamers that they were able to completely kill off the "old" adventure and convince the industry to start extruding junk like Syberia?
sarcasm! i love it!
anyway... age is not important at all... gaming years is what i mean by "old" gamers (although young+new gamers are way more superficial than old(age)+new(gaming) gamers)... the reason i thought you're a new gamer was the interpretation of your previous post... and i said "IF" didn't i?!
and you mentioning syberia as an example is pointless, cause i already said (in several posts) that i loved syberia (other old adventurers though don't share my views on this game)... and i said there are still a few outstanding adventures released (runaway coming up)... my point was (is) that good adventures are now pretty scarce, as opposed to "the dark ages" (with the examples of L9, MS, Infocom, Sierra and Lucasarts), and that is mostly due to the new age of gamers (generally) who are after the visuals and action (should have mentioned this as well)... and you might not believe it but i love seeing beautiful gfx and sfx, but i don't consider them important for an adventure... just a very welcome supplementary element, IF the adventure is good on the important parts (hence my KQ3 over KQ8 example - this didn't mean i wouldn't want to see a tierra remake of KQ3)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 6:00pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (17 FEB 2003 5:48pm)
...and you mentioning syberia as an example is pointless, cause i already said (in several posts) that i loved syberia (other old adventurers though don't share my views on this game)...
Pointless? To whom? To you? Certainly not pointless to me. To me, Syberia is the embodiment of what has gone wrong with adventures. It's not an adventure. It's a click-through graphic novel. Not bad if you like that sort of thing, but not an adventure like, say, Bad Mojo or Dark Fall.
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| 17 FEB 2003 at 6:24pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (17 FEB 2003 6:00pm)
Pointless? To whom? To you? Certainly not pointless to me. To me, Syberia is the embodiment of what has gone wrong with adventures. It's not an adventure. It's a click-through graphic novel. Not bad if you like that sort of thing, but not an adventure like, say, Bad Mojo or Dark Fall.
ok so you didn't like syberia... i won't argue that cause it's not the point right now and it has been done already anyway (i'll agree though that it looked like a click-thru graphic novel because of its unbelievable easiness)... i don't understand though, since you seem to more or less agree with my words, what we are argueing about (english is not my native language so i may misinterpret some of you words! :)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 18 FEB 2003 at 10:26am |
| Deleted User | Aya's definition of AG:
"...the right idea of the genre would be a storyline and characters which evolve during the game... not one personality-less person (the player) wandering around moving levers."
You say Myst has no storyline, no character development, just puzzles. You agree that Riven has a beautifully told in-game storyline, but you still regard it as a puzzle game. Syberia may have looked like a click-through graphic novel (graphics don't count for you anyway) because it was so easy, but you say it's an outstanding adventure. And last but not least: you prefer The Guild Of Thieves over Riven ANYTIME.
So tell me, where's the compelling storyline and the character development in The Guild of Thieves with its personality-less player wandering around solving puzzles? If Riven has puzzles, character development and story, why doesn't it qualify as an adventure? If Syberia has no puzzles to speak of, why do you consider it an outstanding adventure? Are you saying adventures don't need puzzles at all...?
And I don't understand why old adventurers like you are supposed to have better judgements than new (and young!) adventurers who must have brought you the immensely popular Syberia, because you said they led the genre to where it is now. Are you saying that they love this game for the wrong reasons (those superficial, non-essential visuals) whereas wise old adventurers like you are able to discover the real substance?
Betje (another clueless old adventurer, who likes the Guild of Thieves a lot, dislikes Syberia, loves Myst/Riven, and doesn't know what sfx stands for)
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| 18 FEB 2003 at 11:32am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | SFX can be Sound Effects or Special Effects.
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| 18 FEB 2003 at 2:16pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (18 FEB 2003 10:25am)
Aya's definition of AG:
"...the right idea of the genre would be a storyline and characters which evolve during the game... not one personality-less person (the player) wandering around moving levers."
exactly the latter... one sure can't give a precise definition of what is an adv game (i never did that) but one can most definately define what is NOT an adventure game... a guy holding a plasma gun blasting enemies at a rate of 50 kills/sec is not an adv game... 22 ppl kicking around a ball on a green court is not an adv game.... a player just wandering around moving levers is not an adv game... the are, respectively, an fps, a football (soccer) and a puzzle game... and these are NOT my definitions... but they exist and if someone tries to convince me that 22 ppl kicking a ball around is and adv game then all i can do is shrug
You say Myst has no storyline, no character development, just puzzles. You agree that Riven has a beautifully told in-game storyline, but you still regard it as a puzzle game. Syberia may have looked like a click-through graphic novel (graphics don't count for you anyway) because it was so easy, but you say it's an outstanding adventure. And last but not least: you prefer The Guild Of Thieves over Riven ANYTIME.
i didn't agree about riven's storyline cause i haven't played it (only a little at start, which resembled myst, and of course i quit in no time)... i should have edited the quote but i thought the pacman example helped making clear what i meant... i agreed with riven standing the test of time, and of course i agreed with it taking you to another world (but don't every game do?)... i say syberia was an outstanding (a bit of overstatement... a great is more like it) adv because, no matter how easy it was, it had a fantastic storyline and an excellent character development with great atmosphere and also (very easy) puzzles (and "easy" is very subjective anyway... i've read about ppl having troubles with this game... and anyway "easy"/"hard" have nothing to do with if an adv is good or not)
So tell me, where's the compelling storyline and the character development in The Guild of Thieves with its personality-less player wandering around solving puzzles?
personallity-less? unless we have a different definition of that, got's main character was far from personallity-less... and you didn't "wander around moving levers[/i".... "wandering around solving puzzles" is what happens in all adv games... and it's different
If Riven has puzzles, character development and story, why doesn't it qualify as an adventure? If Syberia has no puzzles to speak of, why do you consider it an outstanding adventure? Are you saying adventures don't need puzzles at all...?
the was character development and story in riven?! cause there was no such thing in myst (and don't tell me trying to find that guy at the end is a storyline, cause then bubble bobble is an adv too, you try and find and save your dinosaur girlfriend - that's a storyline)... and no i'm not saying advs need no puzzles, of course they do... syberia HAD puzzles, they were just too easy (for me)
and neither you nor anyone else haven't answered me yet, if you consider myst/riven advs, what do you consider dr. brain to be? because they both are similar
And I don't understand why old adventurers like you are supposed to have better judgements than new (and young!) adventurers who must have brought you the immensely popular Syberia, because you said they led the genre to where it is now. Are you saying that they love this game for the wrong reasons (those superficial, non-essential visuals) whereas wise old adventurers like you are able to discover the real substance?
of course i'm saying that! and before you get me wrong, i say that about everything... for example i personally have played only a few rpgs... i don't have the experience and the knowledge to judge the genre of rpgs who is there for 20+ years only because i played 10 games!!! i can only say my opinion: "i liked that, i didn't like this"... i can't go around saying: "oh that game is the definition of an rpg, that game is not what rpgs are about" etc, because i have the self-awareness that i DON'T KNOW about them... so i guess you now understand what i mean
Betje (another clueless old adventurer, who likes the Guild of Thieves a lot, dislikes Syberia, loves Myst/Riven, and doesn't know what sfx stands for)
Aya (a clueless RPGer, who likes the Guild of Thieves a lot, dislikes Myst/Riven, loves Syberia, and uses sfx as in "sound effects"
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 18 FEB 2003 at 8:26pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (18 FEB 2003 2:16pm)
.... a player just wandering around moving levers is not an adv game...
A nice sweeping statement. Based on what? You object to a certain type of puzzle (fiddling with machines). That's your subjective opinion, not an objective criterium. I'm not good at mathematical puzzles and I of course don't like them. Rama is full of mathematical puzzles and gaming is about having a good time, so I never finished Rama. oes that mean it's not a real adventure?
i say syberia was an outstanding (a bit of overstatement... a great is more like it) adv because, no matter how easy it was, it had a fantastic storyline and an excellent character development with great atmosphere
Ah but Myst had GREAT atmosphere too! Are you going to deny that or dismiss it as irrelevant, just because it's not your kind of atmosphere?
and also (very easy) puzzles (and "easy" is very subjective anyway... i've read about ppl having troubles with this game... and anyway "easy"/"hard" have nothing to do with if an adv is good or not)
I agree that easy/hard in itself is irrelevant. If we're talking real "puzzles", cause many people don't like long sessions of pixelhunting or having to wait for a particular person to ask that one question that will get the game moving again.
personallity-less? unless we have a different definition of that, got's main character was far from personallity-less...
Aya, the player has no personality and there is no story. There is the context that in order to become a member of the Guild of Thieves you must pass a test and steal a lot of valuable stuff. That's it. The same kind of minimal context as looking for a girlfriend in your bubble bobble game. Of course, I don't think of GoT as a puzzle game, but by YOUR definition it would be.
there was character development and story in riven?!
Plenty of story! There's no Kate Walker type of player, so character development is irrelevant, agreed. But Gehn is quite a character.
and neither you nor anyone else haven't answered me yet, if you consider myst/riven advs, what do you consider dr. brain to be? because they both are similar
Can't help you there, I haven't heard of Dr. Brain.
Betje
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| 18 FEB 2003 at 10:33pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I don't mind people giving their opinions about what are good or bad adventure games or what type of adventure game they prefer or why.
But I do get tired of hearing that games (eg. games with lots exploration, puzzles and levers, etc.) are not adventure games. You can argue all you want, but these games are adventure games whether you like it or not. They are marketed by companies that call themselves things like The Adventure Company, they are played by adventure game fanatics everywhere, and they are reviewed by adventure game reviews on websites called things like JustAdventure.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 18 FEB 2003 at 10:39pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Uh-oh, Rael will argue with SirDave
Originally Posted By SirDave (18 FEB 2003 10:32pm)
They are marketed by companies that call themselves things like The Adventure Company,
Tomb Raider was also marketed as an adventure game :
they are played by adventure game fanatics everywhere,
Many adventure game fanatics played Deus Ex and stuff like Baldur's Gate :
and they are reviewed by adventure game reviews on websites called things like JustAdventure.
JA also reviewed NOLF :
Sorry, not enough reasons to call them adventure games
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| 18 FEB 2003 at 11:49pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | SirDave you seem very affected by marketing and inet sites instead of forming your own opinion... rael responded perfectly
Betje i wanted to comment to what you said but........ i can't do this anymore! i'm tired of this constant debate that leads nowhere... you won't convince me whatever you say, and i won't convince you whatever i say.... i do value your views a lot, views that come from an old, with years of experience adventurer, and you might had a chance convincing me if i hadn't played myst to its fullest.. but i have, and to me it's a puzzle game (good or bad doesn't matter)... and my opinion is not just mine, it's shared by more ppl than you think... so i don't think my personal preferences have anything to do with this
Can't help you there, I haven't heard of Dr. Brain.
in castle of dr brain (the one i played a little) you just move from room to room solving different kind of puzzles that lied in each room... i think the objective was to manage it to dr. brain's room... and since some ppl think it's important how the company promotes the game, sierra promoted it as a puzzle game
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 12:42am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (18 FEB 2003 10:38pm)
Tomb Raider was also marketed as an adventure game :
Many adventure game fanatics played Deus Ex and stuff like Baldur's Gate :
JA also reviewed NOLF :
Oh fiddle-dee-dee!
Tomb Raider was never marketed as an adventure game and even if it was you would know it to be the mistake it is!
The adventure fanatics who play Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate don't think of them as adventure games any more than I think of NHL Hockey as an adventure game (and I'm an adventure game fanatic).
As for JA reviewing NOLF- Ray Ivey is very clear about pointing out that it has strong elements of FPS and RPG games.
Dont' worry Aya- I haven't left you out:
What does marketing have to do with this? Well, it simply proves a few things. If a company markets a game as an adventure game then since they know the authors pretty well who wrote the darn things and since the publisher wants to target the right audience, it would seem that if they're calling it an adventure game, the authors must have thought it was and the intended buyers must be adventure gamers.
I understand that in Aya-Rael world it would be proclaimed that this whole segment of games would not be adventure games- but if doing so was taken seriously, you wouldn't have much of an adventure game forum left; just a few discussing over and over the wonders of Syberia, TLJ and Gabriel Knight 1-3. (All of which I happen to love also by the way).
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 12:51am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 12:42am)
The adventure fanatics who play Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate don't think of them as adventure games any more than I think of NHL Hockey as an adventure game (and I'm an adventure game fanatic).
totally wrong... many (and i mean MANY) gamers mistakenly consider Deus Ex (as well as Silent Hill, Alice and a LOT other examples) as adventures
Don't worry Aya- I haven't left you out:
if you had i'd be very offended!
What does marketing have to do with this? Well, it simply proves a few things. If a company markets a game as an adventure game then since they know the authors pretty well who wrote the darn things and since the publisher wants to target the right audience, it would seem that if they're calling it an adventure game, the authors must have thought it was and the intended buyers must be adventure gamers.
wrong again... britney spears was promoted as one of the "new and fresh" "rock" (FFS :) female singers, along with alanis, avril lavine and other "rock" singers.... get my point? nuff said
Besides, it just seems presumptious to proclaim a whole segment of these games as not being adventure games- if doing so was taken seriously, you wouldn't have much of an adventure game forum left; just a few discussing over and over the wonders of Syberia, TLJ and Gabriel Knight 1-3. (All of which I happen to love also by the way).
if it's all so that we have smth to talk about then i'm in... let's say myst is an adventure since there aren't a lot left to discuss! :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 1:00am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (19 FEB 2003 12:42am)
What does all this have to do with anything. You can't just throw out irrelevant facts and hope they stick like nailing Jello to the wall.
It has a lot to do. You implied companies know what they're marketing and I say to you: they don't know what the hell they're marketing. I don't think my statement is irrelevant at all. In fact, your fact is quite irrelevant - so what if a company called "The Adventure Company" is marketing games as "adventures"? Does that mean their games have to be adventures? What does that have to do with anything??
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