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| 5 FEB 2003 at 12:58am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I don't really think of the Adventure Game industry as having 'died' since there are still signs of its life all over the place, although not nearly as much as 3-8 years ago. The very presence of companies like Dreamcatcher and Microids, not to mention very small indies putting out Dark Fall and Rhem testify to that.
But, I understand your underlying point. You mention Half-Life, but I think it's much broader than that- it was almost inevitable that once the technology allowed, action and sports 3D games were going to take over. As a warm-blooded male I can testify to how great the latter games are.
One other reason that the market for Adventure Games has narrowed is that generally, adventure gamers are on the average deeper thinkers (for want of a better word) and, dare I say it, on the average, more intelligent than the average gamer; we demand more of a mental challenge. A corollary of this reasoning is why there are now fewer really good movies (as opposed to mindless computer-enhanced action movies) and less quality popular music. Everything has been dumbed down!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 3:39am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Not even hospitalized. As to why fewer adventure games are made than there used to be -
"Blockbuster mentality" maybe?
Gordon Aplin wrote an interesting comparison of the parallels between the game industry and the movie industry.
http://www.quandaryland.com/2002/In_the_Shadow_of_the_Monster.htm
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 8:31am |
sennebecGuild Master
Posts : 3334
Joined: 15 NOV 2004
Location: US, maine
Status : Offline | we all wouldn't be here if AG'ing was dead...
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 10:30am |
upcIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 77
Joined: 11 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (5 FEB 2003 12:58am)
One other reason that the market for Adventure Games has narrowed is that generally, adventure gamers are on the average deeper thinkers (for want of a better word) and, dare I say it, on the average, more intelligent than the average gamer; we demand more of a mental challenge.
I'm with you all the way. Mental skilfulness is what distinguishes an adventure player from all others. Thinking of adventure gamers as a kind of chosen people may appear somehow classist, but definitely gets the point. I guess that everybody can play and finish an action game, while playing adv games needs a mental disposition that can't be limited to mere reflexes. I think that the typical game buyer is too lazy to get in that mood while playing a computer game, but I suspect that there are a lot of persons lacking qualities to stand any kind of mental challenge.
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 12:52pm |
judyannSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 319
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | There was a point when I thought it had really died - for me. Sometime after '95, I could not play AGs because my 4 year old computer was too old. Windows 3.1 just wouldn't cut it and DOS games just couldn't be found. Installing 95 was not an option nor was purchasing a new computer, particularly because my old one was working just fine - still is. The AG's technology had advanced beyond this consumer's ability to keep up. I have a friend who had the same situation.
When we were able to get new computers that could handle the games, I started playing again, but not as much as I had filled the "void" with other interests; my friend, too, had developed other interests and never went back.
So, I wonder if having games for Windows 95 when not everyone had 95 and discontinuing DOS games might not have resulted in losing a certain number of players.
Our children were grown when my friend and I started playing adventure games, but I know people in their 20s who started about the time I did - early 90s. After the first couple of kids, the demand on their time just doesn't allow for adventure games.
Theory: from time to time, rapid advancement in technology and changing lifestyles may impact the ability of certain groups of people to play adventure games periodically resulting in a decrease in the popularity of those games.
On the other hand, FPS and other genres that appeal to teenagers will continue to be popular as long as there are teenagers. Teens are a stable target market as it is constantly being replenished.
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 1:26pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By sennebec (5 FEB 2003 8:31am)
we all wouldn't be here if AG'ing was dead...
we wouldn't? have you been in an Elvis forum lately?!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 2:31pm |
| Deleted User | Here's another question we should ask ourselves?
What will it take to make us fans stop whining about the state of the genre and see the genres as alive again?
I would guess no less than a revival that would bring adventure games not only back into general attention, but to a state where it beats the RPG, FPS, sports, simulation and all other major genres. And that might not ever happen... I'd say when there's always an adventure game in the top ten sales lists again, we are officially back in business, but maybe we've grown too used to believing we are the gaming outsiders to accept that. :
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 2:50pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Adventure games sold well in earlier days of home computing. Then the gaming industry became massive, and sales of adventure games... grew.
The trouble is, sales of other genres grew much, much more, so that the market share of adventure games fell - it became the 'less potential profit' genre. Production costs of games rose across the board, and adventure games are more expensive to make than a lot of other types of games. Naturally, companies didn't like the 'adventure games = expensive to make + less potential profit' equation.
Which is why we need a bigger market share, by attracting the sort of people who are more likely to enjoy adventure games... continues ad infinitum)
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 3:04pm |
| Deleted User | I think the reason AG's sold more back then was that there weren't many alternatives. The only action games were arcade games.
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 4:35pm |
ArnirIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | I think that the inability to even define the genre makes it difficult to discuss what happened to the genre.
I agree though, that the changing demographics of computer owners turned AGs from being the king of a small pond into a minnow in a big lake.
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| 5 FEB 2003 at 10:07pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By judyann (5 FEB 2003 12:52pm)
Our children were grown when my friend and I started playing adventure games, but I know people in their 20s who started about the time I did - early 90s. After the first couple of kids, the demand on their time just doesn't allow for adventure games...
Theory: from time to time, rapid advancement in technology and changing lifestyles may impact the ability of certain groups of people to play adventure games periodically resulting in a decrease in the popularity of those games.
On the other hand, FPS and other genres that appeal to teenagers will continue to be popular as long as there are teenagers. Teens are a stable target market as it is constantly being replenished.
Changing lifestyles will affect the market according to how much time and money people have. You're going to lose some young adventure gamers when they start having families and don't have as much free time. But you also have people retiring and suddenly having a lot of free time. How many big game companies are seeing these people as a viable market?
Another thing to consider is that recent retirees are more likely to own pre-built computers that they bought at Best Buy or similar places. These computers are not likely to have the fastest graphic cards. So any game targeted to them should put compatibility ahead of the latest graphics. The Nancy Drew series is an example of games that can run on a wide variety of computers - from Win 95 to XP with a wide range of processor speeds. They are low price (good for those on fixed incomes). However, the plots are more geared toward gamers who read Nancy Drew than older gamers who prefer Agatha Christie.
When adventure games were most popular, they relied on stories more than their graphics. For them to be popular again, I think they have to start relying more on their stories and characters. A higher minimum standard in the way of graphics is expected now than was expected back when GK1 was published. But you don't need the latest, fastest graphics to be "good enough" if your story and characters are good.
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 2:45am |
Monsey_JoeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 58
Joined: 2 FEB 2003
Status : Online | First, adventure games have NO replayability so the average person is not willing to spend $20-30 on a game that will be finished in a week(especially since a Sim game can be played over and over for hours), Second, think the large amount of Myst Clones with a small uninteresting storyline and lots of mechanical twiddleware tend to turn off most people.(Because of Mysts success it became the definition of Aventure games if you hate Myst you will hate adventure games without knowing much about them)
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 7:23am |
JoGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Location: AU, Qld.
Status : Offline | Personally wouldn't class Myst as a real adventure game.
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 11:05am |
| Deleted User | Please redirect Myst complaints to the hot-spot before we get flaming in here!
First, adventure games have NO replayability so the average person is not willing to spend $20-30 on a game that will be finished in a week(especially since a Sim game can be played over and over for hours),
I don't know of any adventure game I've finished in a week (mainly because I don't buy cack), and I've found games like Riven (finished 3 times), Syberia, TLJ and SQ3 (fniished too many times to count) to have tons of replayability. I know a lot of people here agree too...
You're making a very bold statement based on personal opinion. Anyone who can finish TLJ in a week is a non-average person with too much time on their hands...
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 12:36pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Monsey_Joe (16 FEB 2003 2:44am)
First, adventure games have NO replayability so the average person is not willing to spend $20-30 on a game that will be finished in a week(especially since a Sim game can be played over and over for hours), Second, think the large amount of Myst Clones with a small uninteresting storyline and lots of mechanical twiddleware tend to turn off most people.(Because of Mysts success it became the definition of Aventure games if you hate Myst you will hate adventure games without knowing much about them)
very true words monsey_joe... once again!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 12:43pm |
| Deleted User | Aya - what exactly are you agreeing with?
If anything, Myst's success shows that people are buying it 'cause they like adventures. Why else would they? It's quite obvious from the cover that it's not a shoot-em-up! Most Myst players are also female (it's true - look it up!) and they go on to play other things.
Why blame Myst for the "downfall" of AG's? It's the people that jump on the bandwagon and produce half-arsed attempts that should have a severe spanking.
I know plenty of people that enjoy Myst as well as other games - my girlfriend hates violence in games but will play Grim Fandango, Syberia or Riven. She was weened on Riven too, and now craves more adventures...
And as for adventures being easy and non-replayable - what are you two doing on an Adventure forum?
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 1:51pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (16 FEB 2003 12:43pm)
Aya - what exactly are you agreeing with?
sheesh! once we could not disagree without saying why, now we can't even agree without explaining?!
anyway you can read the myst threat if you're interested in what i think about myst
what i agreed with was: first, the crap myst-clones - myst may be a good game, can't argue that, but the clones (i have played a couple but don't remember names) were turn-offs even for myst fans... and second, myst gave the wrong idea of an adventure, and that's a fact... and i'm willing to bet that from the ppl who didn't like TLJ because it had "too much dialog", 95% of them are myst fans!... and myst was released mid-90s IIRC... wasn't mid-90s the time that adventures started to take a dive? coincidence? maybe
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 5:01pm |
Friday the 14thSchattenjger
Posts : 2908
Joined: 5 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (16 FEB 2003 1:51pm)
and i'm willing to bet that from the ppl who didn't like TLJ because it had "too much dialog", 95% of them are myst fans!...
Who said that?? Thats so stupid, I bet those ppl grew up alone in a locked room with a lot of puzzles. >
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 5:36pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Monsey_Joe (16 FEB 2003 2:44am)
First, adventure games have NO replayability so the average person is not willing to spend $20-30 on a game that will be finished in a week(especially since a Sim game can be played over and over for hours), Second, think the large amount of Myst Clones with a small uninteresting storyline and lots of mechanical twiddleware tend to turn off most people.(Because of Mysts success it became the definition of Aventure games if you hate Myst you will hate adventure games without knowing much about them)
Oh hooey! I'd like to meet the person that finished Myst or Riven in an average week (ie. not playing 24/7) without a walk-thru. And just what are some of those Myst Clones with a small uninteresting storyline? (No one has ever answered my question as to what all these awful Myst-clones are).
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 6:02pm |
Monsey_JoeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 58
Joined: 2 FEB 2003
Status : Online | First, I probably wasn't clear about the replayability bit. Yes, there are Adventure games that may take up to a month to finish. However after that you will play maybe once. A game like the Sims can be played over and over and can last you years. Second, when I refer to Myst Clones I refer to games like The Crystal Key (The worst Myst-Clone ever) and similar type of Dreamcatcher games.
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 9:43pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By monkeybone (16 FEB 2003 12:43pm)
Most Myst players are also female (it's true - look it up!) and they go on to play other things.
Really? How do you know that, where can I look it up?
Betje
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 10:06pm |
| Deleted User | Technology have killed adventure!
3DFX and the likes.
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 10:53pm |
| Deleted User | This thread has turned into another case of rampant paranoia.
1) 3DFX didn't kill adventure. Explain the popularity (even though you may not like them) of GF, Syberia, Atlantis 3, GK3, TLJ and MI4.
2) I read somewhere that the majority of Myst and Riven players were women. I think it was one of the Millers, and it was in an old magazine I have somewhere... so you got me there! That's why I said look it up!
3) Yup, Myst clones like Secert Of The Nautilus, that awful Jerusalem thing etc. haven't helped the adventure genre.
4) I am a firm believer that if Myst hadn't of done it someone else would've invented a first person mechanical adventure. Can we call the 1st person adventures now, please?
5) It is absolutely 100% naive to think that someone who liked Myst wouldn't like TLJ. If such a person exists, they really do deserve to be locked in a room with nothing but mechanical puzzles.
I loved Myst, well Riven actually, and that doesn't mean that I hate dialogue-based adventures! It's just paranoia!
6) I've replayed several adventures more than once, and have kept them. Many, many people here will admit to finishing games like the GK series more than once. However, no-one will finish a cack adventure.
7) Lastly, no-one has "killed" adventure. Tell that to the Benoir Sokal, Ragnar Tournquist and what seems like 60% of European developers, and they'd laugh at you whilst brandishing dollar bills in your face before racing off to the horses in black mercedes benz's.
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| 16 FEB 2003 at 11:05pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Monsey_Joe (16 FEB 2003 2:44am)
First, adventure games have NO replayability
Oh rubbish. My memory is so rotten I can't remember the first thing about any of the puzzles in an adventure game 6 months after I played it. I'm lucky if I can even remember the plot. And if I like a game well enough, I sometimes replay it immediately after finishing it - the same way I'll rewatch a movie DVD the day after I saw it.
Second, think the large amount of Myst Clones with a small uninteresting storyline and lots of mechanical twiddleware tend to turn off most people.
I suppose by "Myst Clone" you mean a first person adventure where exploring the gameworld and solving the puzzles seems to come first and the story is secondary or is not told in chronoligical order. There are some good "Myst clones" as well as some bad (or not-so-good) ones. Some that I enjoyed include Obsidian, Timelapse, Zork Nemesis, and Morpheus. I know Zork Nemesis has a little FMV in it, but so did Myst. And most of the time in Zork Nemesis you're alone exploring the various gameworlds and uncovering the story from what you find as you explore.
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