| 17 APR 2007 at 6:44pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | A developer calls themselves a Christian Game Developer and is getting ready to release a game called Heaven. You have thus far surmissed that you will be preached to as they push their Christian agenda on you. After all, "look at the developers' website to see very clearly what their agenda is." Their website consists of a single main page that has the company name and the words Christian Game Developer - that's it. Just the word Christian has caused you to jump to a huge conclusion that you will be preached to and force fed an agenda.
In a word: yes. I repeat: how many times have you seen a development team describe themselves as 'Jewish Game Developers' or 'Agnostic Game Developers'? Do the developers of normal, non-Christian-focussed AGs mention their religion on the front page of their website - or anywhere at all on their website, apart from maybe a personal bio? Of course not, because it's completely irrelevant to their games - and so it should be, if those games are not specifically designed to promote a particular religious viewpoint.
And please don't tell me that they're doing it in order to show that there's no sex or violence in their games, because you certainly don't need to specifically mention Christianity in order to do that. The Miller brothers are Christians, and deliberately set out to make non-violent adventures which would appeal to people like them, but not once does any reference to God, the Bible or Jesus appear in any of their games. The Myst games can be enjoyed equally well by both Christians and non-Christians, precisely because they didn't go out of their way to emphasise the religious aspect.
Let me give you this: http://www.virtuegames.com/ Remember Derek and Nacah? Two Christian themed games - heck you even needed a King James Bible to play one of them. I don't recall being PREACHED to in either one of those, nor did I feel like they were pushing some big agenda [...] The trailer was nothing more than a bible passage and some glittery scenes of what Heaven is supposed to look like. Lots of games have bible passages.
Clearly your definition of 'preaching' differs from mine, because having to use a Bible to play a game and having bits of the damn thing quoted at me all the time is exactly what I'd describe as being 'preached' at. I've no desire to play either of those games for precisely that reason.
Apparently you missed the spaceship flying through some meteor storm... Maybe they are pushing some sci-fi agenda too? The bottom line is that you guys know NOTHING about this game and are speculating before knowing any facts. Yes, MichalN is rubbing off on me.)
'Sci-fi agenda'? Now you're abandoning any attempt at rational argument.
I guess it's ok to play alchoholics, theives, cutthroats and everything else, but to have your character be a Christian is a big no-no...that's pretty pathetic. Who knows? Maybe your character isn't a Christian and becomes one during the game. So what?
See my comments above on the Broken Sword games. The two main characters of that are clearly Christians, though they don't make a big thing of it... which is exactly the point. I've no objection to playing a Christian character as long as it's made clear that this is just the character's beliefs, not something I'm supposed to believe. (By the way, I'd love to know which AGs have main characters who are 'alcoholics, thieves and cutthroats', because I've certainly never played any of them.)
I'm sorry, Ivinia, but I have very little sympathy with any of your complaints here. Of course people are going to be pissed off if they see a game that looks interesting, then realise that it's clearly designed to appeal only to a particular religious group. Fine, so you're happy with Christian games - you could just have said something like "Well, I don't mind it because I am a Christian," rather than implying that people are closed-minded and intolerant for not wanting developers' religious views shoved down their throats. Not to mention dragging out the tired old 'anti-Christian bias' argument... sigh.
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| 17 APR 2007 at 7:52pm |
ArngrimIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 43
Joined: 9 AUG 2006
Status : Online | Some disturbing news came in today, I though you guys should see this:
It's real by the way, Heaven has been official certified by Jack Thompson:
[IMG]http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1213/12841797wo5.jpg[/IMG]
Together with his seal of authenticity:
[IMG]http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/466/buddyjesusow8.jpg[/IMG]
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| 18 APR 2007 at 4:42am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (17 APR 2007 5:43pm)
[That said... if I was a betting man, I'd bet Ksandra is right. This sounds like a pretty expensive production. Who's funding it and what do they want for their money?
Oh, I'd say so too. It's a strong possibility as the signs are there, but nothing is conclusive enough to emphatically state that it is for sure. Even so, I hardly think that it warrants the accusations of being force fed or having it shoved down your throat.
Originally Posted By KSandra (17 APR 2007 5:43pm)
Fine, so you're happy with Christian games - you could just have said something like "Well, I don't mind it because I am a Christian,"
There you go again jumping to conclusions. Guess what? I'm not. I'm just not as hyper-sensative as you are to Christian or any other types of religious themes, messages, or views in games or life. How many times have there been discussions in the P&R thread about Muslims and I've watched people coming out to defend them, yet those very same people have no problem jumping all over Christians and Jews. Perhaps I should conclude that they are all Muslims?
I'm perfectly fine with Christian games, just like I am fine with violent games, games geared towards women, adult games, etc.
My stance is simple enough. To each his own. If someone is happy with something, then good for them as long as it isn't harming others. If you don't like it and it's not for you, then move on. Everyone has their right to believe what they want and should not be scolded or jumped on for doing so as long as they are not promoting harm to others. I'll give any game a shot and reserve my judgement after I play it - assuming of course that there isn't already lots of information available that clearly states what it is. Even then I'm prone to eventually trying it to see for myself.
Originally Posted By KSandra (17 APR 2007 5:43pm)
not wanting developers' religious views shoved down their throats.
Are you being chained to a PC and forced to play the game? How is this being shoved down your throat? You have a choice of playing it or not. You also have a choice of whether or not you are prone to some message or seeing it as just a game.
Shoved down your throat?
Sitting at the traffic light while the car next to you is rattling your windows while playing hip hop with the volume cranked up is my idea of something being shoved down my throat. I hate hip hop.
The local church who did a haunted house for Halloween and insisted there were no religious themes, then having all of their 'scary' scenes being drugs, alchohol, abortion etc. and then ending it with two doors where you went through the door on the left if you were not saved and the door on the right if you are saved. If you went through the door on the left, they had conselors waiting to convince you to get saved. If you went through the door on the right, they tried to convince you to join their church. THAT is having religion shoved down your throat.
..or the time when I was a kid and these people came around and to promote some Buffalo Bill show they were having and got parents permissions to take all the kids to see it. The buses lined up and we all got on excited to see this show. When we got there, they separated us into separate classrooms and preached about "The Lord". It was 3-4 hours worth, then the brief Buffalo Bill show which lasted around 30 minutes. THAT is having religion shoved down your throat.
In both cases above, deception was used to lure unsuspecting people in. This game is hardly being deceptive about their theme. Heck, they haven't even stated their motives yet, so I would hardly call it being deceptive.
The cigarette tax that was just approval to support the arts is something I consider as being force down my throat. What does the arts have to do with smoking? Nothing. Non-smokers out number the smokers, so it was as easy way to get money for the arts. The high gas prices while the oil companies report record profits is something I consider being forced down my throat.
An adventure game announcement of a Christian based game is HARDLY having something shoved down your throat. If you see it that way, then I feel sorry for you and you need to toughen up.
But hey, I get it. There is a distinct difference here in that it's ok to have a message "preached" to you as long as you agree with it. If it was a message about global warming, then it would be ok and not seen as propaganda.
Originally Posted By KSandra (17 APR 2007 5:43pm)
Not to mention dragging out the tired old 'anti-Christian bias' argument...
Just as I am tired of seeing any mention of Christian bringing out the whole group of anti-religious folks and the whole propaganda/agenda argument...
The simple fact that a christian based adventure game announcement is seen as some major threat that brings out accusations of being forced fed religion and resulting in Arngrim's ridiculous post is pathetic.
I applaud JA for covering ALL adventure games.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 5:03am |
| Deleted User | I appreciate you comments Ivinia and totally agree with you. And I applaud JA for covering all genres also. As with ALL new AGs, , I hope they ALL will turn-out to be spectacular ones.
Real strange Amgrim....you say you're a Christian.....but a Christian-based AG is propaganda.....weird, very weird.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 6:52am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Americans forget sometimes that Brits don't have the same exposure to nor tolerance for public religion. Which is why Ivinia isn't fussed about hearing religious slogans and Kasandra and Lurker and me and lots of others are far more sensitive and repulsed by overt religious themes.
S.P.Q.R. one of the earliest games I played was supposedly a Christian game. I had to read that on a web-site because to me, it was filled with neat puzzles all hidden away in the basements of the various temples around the Forum in Rome. Rather oblique and just about the level of religion I can tolerate.
I'm much more at ease with vague ancient stuff in pc games than I am with modern day religion. I don't believe in any of it and furthermore, I think it's all LIES.
So, by announcing themselves to be Christian developers they must be hoping to attract customers for whom that word will act like a charm. Not a bunch of cynical antagonistic non-believers like us.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 7:19am |
ArngrimIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 43
Joined: 9 AUG 2006
Status : Online | Originally Posted By papabrody (18 APR 2007 5:03am)
Real strange Amgrim....you say you're a Christian.....but a Christian-based AG is propaganda.....weird, very weird.
Yes, and your point? I said christian but NON-PRATICANT, alot of people in Europe are christians because their parents are christians and so on, my parents are non-praticant and I am as well. Like most of the people in my country I am not unto this whole mumbo jumbo, most people that call themselves praticant are 3rd worlders. Weirdly enough the only country that seems that not follow this rule is America.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 10:02am |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | When people say that we don't have enough information on the game to judge whether or not its propaganda, well it's true we're not given much, but from the game website, the company website and the second rate job that was done of developing said sites, it is easy to infer the intentions with which the game is being developed.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 18 APR 2007 at 11:34am |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | It is true that this game may have nothing to do with 'spreading the word' so to speak. But, I'm shallow enough to paint it black because of the religious association.
My issue with some of the Christian religions, and a few other theologies as well is that they encourage their followers to convert the unbelievers. So I'm always leary of any entertainment (movies, books, games) that are developed from these groups. It's one thing to live and let live, it's another to be innundatated with messages/agendas infused into media. The rightous attitude of any religion infuriates me, and many Christian based religions are particularly bad. It's not that I'm insecure in my beliefs (or lack there of ), it just the difference between being nice to the Jehovah witness that comes to your door , or telling him to bugger off, which is really how I feel.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 18 APR 2007 at 1:07pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (18 APR 2007 4:42am)
Originally Posted By KSandra (17 APR 2007 5:43pm)
Fine, so you're happy with Christian games - you could just have said something like "Well, I don't mind it because I am a Christian,"
There you go again jumping to conclusions. Guess what? I'm not. I'm just not as hyper-sensative as you are to Christian or any other types of religious themes, messages, or views in games or life.
My point still stands. You could have simply said that you personally don't mind these things and left it at that; instead you chose to make a deliberately confrontational comment implying that other people are intolerant and anti-Christian just because they feel differently from you. No one here has 'jumped to conclusions' other than those that are entirely sensible - as I pointed out in my last comment, why on earth developers bother to emphasise their Christianity if their games were not going to promote a Christian message? I notice you've completely failed to answer that, like most of the other points I made in that post.
How many times have there been discussions in the P&R thread about Muslims and I've watched people coming out to defend them, yet those very same people have no problem jumping all over Christians and Jews. Perhaps I should conclude that they are all Muslims?
I'm sorry? Do you seriously believe that if a group of 'Muslim game developers' came out with a game based on Islam, and filled with quotes from the Koran, people would be raring to play it? I haven't read the P&R threads in question, but what happens there has nothing to do with this in any case - stop trying to change the subject.
My stance is simple enough. To each his own. If someone is happy with something, then good for them as long as it isn't harming others. If you don't like it and it's not for you, then move on. Everyone has their right to believe what they want and should not be scolded or jumped on for doing so as long as they are not promoting harm to others.
...which was why you chose to do exactly that, I suppose? No one was attacking you early on in this thread. No one was criticising you for having a different opinion to the majority of people here. YOU are the one who started off this whole b*tch-fest by accusing other people of intolerance, not to mention assuming we're all biased against Christians and Christian games in particular - and you have the bloody nerve to accuse us of jumping to conclusions!
Are you being chained to a PC and forced to play the game? How is this being shoved down your throat? You have a choice of playing it or not. You also have a choice of whether or not you are prone to some message or seeing it as just a game.
Having it forced down our throats IN A GAME is what I meant - and don't be bloody ridiculous, of course it's not a 'choice' whether you see a message there or not. Either you do or you don't, simple as that. If I chose played the game, I WOULD have it forced down my throat, which means that I'm prevented from enjoying a game I might have liked otherwise - and yes, I and everyone else here have a perfect right to be annoyed about that. What's more, we have a perfect right to say so - this is a forum. That's what it's for. If you can't cope with that, I suggest you piss off somewhere else, especially since you've clearly decided that all of us are rabid anti-Christians and no amount of rational argument is going to convince you otherwise.
But hey, I get it. There is a distinct difference here in that it's ok to have a message "preached" to you as long as you agree with it. If it was a message about global warming, then it would be ok and not seen as propaganda.
My God, have you listened to ANYTHING I've said in this entire thread? I have explained, in some length, exactly what I regard as 'propaganda' and why I regard it as such - and you've completely ignored everything I said, because you're determined to believe we're all Christian-haters who run shrieking at the slightest mention of Christianity in a game. OK then, you believe what the hell you want - I'm fed up of arguing with someone who's clearly determined not to listen.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 1:45pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Ksandra... I don't care if you send me to hell or tell me what to do with my spare time, but don't you think you should calm down a bit? Yeah, I know it's none of my business, but we're talking about games here! About entertainment... at least when it's not blatant religious propaganda
Go post at the P&R forum if you want some real excitement, anger and insults
I forgot my sig.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 2:50pm |
Agent BreaPrivate Detective
Posts : 705
Joined: 17 OCT 2006
Location: 0
Status : Online | 1. it is amazing that there are so many games being/to be released, and those threads have 0 to a couple of replies, while throw religion in there and everyone is rushing to post... it's like some ppl have nothing to say unless it's religion/politics related (didn't someone else mention smth like that too?)
2. talking about the game is fine... turning it into a debate about religion is not... like michal said, there is the p&r forum, where you can go and eat each other alive... p&r hatred will not spill to other forums... unless there are more comments about the game itself, this topic will be locked... you can go start a "religion in games" thread in p&r if you want
3. ja will cover everything adventure-related... it's in the discretion of every individual to see which games appeal to them and which do not
Your last waking moments are marked by wretched pain as you provide dinner for a group of ill-mannered dinner guests that just wouldn't leave.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 2:58pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (18 APR 2007 1:45pm)
Ksandra... I don't care if you send me to hell or tell me what to do with my spare time, but don't you think you should calm down a bit? Yeah, I know it's none of my business, but we're talking about games here! About entertainment... at least when it's not blatant religious propaganda
Yes, I'm well aware that these are just games we're talking about and they aren't all that important in the grand scheme of things. The point is that I am fed up to the back teeth of seeing the same stupid arguments happen over and over again for one simple reason: people who are unable to accept that someone else can a) legitimately have a different opinion from them and b) have a legitimate right to express that opinion. It's particularly galling when that person is actually in a small minority, and still thinks they have to right to lecture everyone else on what they can or can't post. I've been seeing this kind of bullsh*t on a regular basis ever since I joined the forum (remember the Myst V thread a while back?) and frankly, I am right out of patience.
I'm not going to 'send you to hell' precisely because you don't behave like that. But if people start accusing me of bias or intolerance without any basis, then refuse to listen when I try to explain why I'm not biased/intolerant/whatever, then yes, I am going to tell them to go to hell. Simple rule: don't dish it out if you can't take it.
Just for the record, neither I nor anyone else has said that JA should not cover this type of game - that's yet another of Ivinia's straw-man arguments. You can disapprove of a game's content (or anything else about it) without denying other people their right to play it if they want.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 3:25pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ksandra (18 APR 2007 2:58pm)
The point is that I am fed up to the back teeth of seeing the same stupid arguments happen over and over again for one simple reason: people who are unable to accept that someone else can a) legitimately have a different opinion from them and b) have a legitimate right to express that opinion.
I can understand that!
A small suggestion. Before posting any particularly sharp words, wait a minute or two and re-read what you wrote. Maybe you'll find out the post may be better overall with certain words/sentences removed.
Or maybe not. I'd be the first to argue that strong words and insults have their place, only that they need to be used sparingly so as to not lose their effectiveness You're old enough to know what you're doing, after all.
Just for the record, neither I nor anyone else has said that JA should not cover this type of game - that's yet another of Ivinia's straw-man arguments.
I certainly didn't read your posts that way.
I forgot my sig.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 3:51pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (18 APR 2007 3:25pm)
A small suggestion. Before posting any particularly sharp words, wait a minute or two and re-read what you wrote. Maybe you'll find out the post may be better overall with certain words/sentences removed.
Believe me, I don't tell people to "go f themselves" lightly. As a matter of fact, I did read that post through several times before I posted it, and I concluded that it was, in fact, exactly what I wanted to say.
Or maybe not. I'd be the first to argue that strong words and insults have their place, only that they need to be used sparingly so as to not lose their effectiveness
Read my first reply to Ivinia - do you see any strong words or insults in that? I recall the sentence "That's true, and I don't begrudge Christians their games." He replied with some stupid remark about people lacking open-mindedness and tolerance (no, it doesn't make it better that it wasn't addressed to anyone in particular) and the whole thing escalated from there. As for the effectiveness of what I said, it seems to have been entirely effective in conveying the message I wanted to convey, which is that I'm extremely pissed off.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 4:02pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ksandra (18 APR 2007 3:51pm)
As a matter of fact, I did read that post through several times before I posted it, and I concluded that it was, in fact, exactly what I wanted to say.
Excellent! In fact, forget I said anything.
I forgot my sig.
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| 18 APR 2007 at 5:46pm |
Ex-JAStaff3Private Detective
Posts : 734
Joined: 10 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Angry or not, personal attacks and the use of obscenities are against the rules here at JA+. The offending line has been removed. If this discussion can't be kept civil, this thread will be locked.
Retired Spam Zapper & Troll Tackler
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| 18 APR 2007 at 6:45pm |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Even if I didn't think that the game would be full of propaganda, I wouldn't have much reason to buy it based on what I've seen.
Ivinia, you seem to be unusually thick-skinned when it comes to this kind of stuff, possibly because you've seen a lot worse. However, please cut the paranoia. I had enough of that in the P&R forum from a person who actually had reason to be paranoid, although not to the extent displayed.
Let me explain how this works:
The trailer for the game gives a strong indication that Christianity will be heavily promoted within the game. Checking the company website and finding that they have decided to advertise their Christianity, plus the fact that the sites appear to have been made by someone relatively new to HTML in a rushed or careless manner and the way that they don't seem to have appreciated that people who visit these sites do it to get information, reinforce the initial impression. It's all just interpretation and extrapolation of their behaviour. No one is out to get them for being Christian.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 18 APR 2007 at 9:12pm |
mclaugbIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 56
Joined: 10 DEC 2005
Status : Online | My God, have you listened to ANYTHING I've said in this entire thread?
'My God'...? Had to chuckle at the irony...
"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." L.P. Hartley
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| 18 APR 2007 at 9:45pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By mclaugb (18 APR 2007 9:12pm)
'My God'...? Had to chuckle at the irony...
Yeah, that did occur to me as well.
Lurker01, I wouldn't bother if I were you. We've both tried explaining this several times, and like I said before, it's clear that Ivinia isn't prepared to listen.
Bearing in mind what Aya said about returning to a discussion the game itself: I acutally agree with what MichalN said earlier about the screenshots. They're pretty, but they are a bit sickly-sweet. Probably to be expected in a game about Heaven, I suppose...
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| 18 APR 2007 at 9:59pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | I liked the screenshots. The glassy effects were quite unusual. They made Heaven look like some huge new shopping mall in Dubai.....
But the Barbie doll figure - her lips were too full, her head to large for her tiny shoulders and her breasts were way too high. Most women couldn't wear them under their chin like that even with a corset. Clean cut male fantasies again..... ?
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| 19 APR 2007 at 9:10am |
ArngrimIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 43
Joined: 9 AUG 2006
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ksandra (18 APR 2007 9:45pm)
Originally Posted By mclaugb (18 APR 2007 9:12pm)
'My God'...? Had to chuckle at the irony...
Yeah, that did occur to me as well.
Lurker01, I wouldn't bother if I were you. We've both tried explaining this several times, and like I said before, it's clear that Ivinia isn't prepared to listen.
Bearing in mind what Aya said about returning to a discussion the game itself: I acutally agree with what MichalN said earlier about the screenshots. They're pretty, but they are a bit sickly-sweet. Probably to be expected in a game about Heaven, I suppose...
Wow I don't come here for 1 day and the topic is already filled of like 1 page more, Ksandra calm down I don't want you to have heart attack over this, we all know what this game is, especially me you and Lurker001, disregard Iviania it's obvious he/she is just trying to infuriate the hell out of you for his own perverted pleasures
Peace.
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| 19 APR 2007 at 1:23pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Arngrim (19 APR 2007 9:10am)
disregard Iviania it's obvious he/she is just trying to infuriate the hell out of you for his own perverted pleasures
Peace.
I am taking this as an attempt at some feeble humor. Ivinia, not matter your disagreements with his stance, is an extremely friendly, knowledgeable and great advocate for the Adventure community. I think there are numerous people here at JA that would tell you the same thing. Time to end this thread unless you have something constructive to say.
Thank you.
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| 19 APR 2007 at 4:17pm |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | I'll give the developers this, they do seem to be good at making things look pretty.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 19 APR 2007 at 4:32pm |
| Deleted User | original post deleted; reposted in new thread, with all references to the game Heaven and propaganda removed.
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