| 26 MAR 2007 at 4:12am |
Joe_MolotovSpace Cadet
Posts : 153
Joined: 4 OCT 2003
Status : Online | I think it's fair to say you weren't the only one who was disappointed. I really liked the story but the combat was just total crap and the puzzles were virtually non-existant. Also, after 6 years of waiting, it would have been nice if they could have delievered a bit more in the ending department.
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| 26 MAR 2007 at 12:56pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | considering that in order to be disappointed you have to be expecting smth good, i'd say i wasn't... actually, one could say i was kinda pleasantly surprised, since i had set my expectations VERY low (so low that i had to dig after hitting rock bottom!)... that doesn't mean that the game was any good, just wasn't the total disgrace i thought it would be... but it definately doesn't deserve to carry the tlj name that's for sure
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 26 MAR 2007 at 2:01pm |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | I feel pretty much the opposite. TLJ was, by far, one of the most boring adventure games I ever played. ull dialogue, ridiculous puzzles, insane amounts of backtracking, and just a game that was way, way too long it needed major editing, the whole thing was a chore to get through. The only reason I'm glad I finished it was so that I could get the references in the sequel.
I only finally decided to try out Dreamfall because of all the great reviews it was getting. It blew me away, easily being my favourite game of 2006 by a long shot, and will probably make my top 20 of all time. Gorgeous to look at, great storytelling, and multiple solutions to problems you faced all led up to an unforgettable experience. I will agree that the ending left me hanging, but I'll wait until the follow-up succeeds or fails to decide if I should hate or love that ending.
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 26 MAR 2007 at 3:03pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | I was not disappointed by Dreamfall - in fact I liked it - but then again I didn't expect much from it. The combat didn't bother me,I figured the avoidable fights were deliberately difficult to give players an extra incentive to avoid them. The few fights that couldn't be avoided were very easy.
The ending of Dreamfall was, indeed, an utter mess. It was more like cutting off the story in the middle than a real ending. It brought down the entire game a notch or two. Otherwise I thought Dreamfall was very well done. It was, of course, ridiculously easy - no challenge whatsoever - but I didn't really mind that.
I forgot my sig.
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| 26 MAR 2007 at 4:36pm |
nytimesguyPrivate Detective
Posts : 684
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I felt exactly the same way, WolfBoy. One of my all time major game disappointments, along with Prince of Persia:The Two Thrones and Final Fantasy X-2.
Charles - Game Theorist
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| 26 MAR 2007 at 5:47pm |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | I liked TLJ and was looking forward to the sequel. I was disappointed in that it turned out to be a game I'll never buy. The combination of reviews and forum comments convinced me it was not something I was interested in. I'm saddened in a way because I don't like many 3rd person games, and TLJ was one of the few that I liked.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 26 MAR 2007 at 10:14pm |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | I don't understand gamers' aversion to cliffhanger endings. This may not be the best analogue to use in an adventure game forum, but there was also a huge outcry engendered by the ending of Halo 2. I don't mind these finales at all, because it means there'll be more, and who wouldn't want that?
Besides, Ragnar has stated that Dreamfall was primarily about the Faith story, and later continuations will explore the larger connection to Arcadia and the Balance.
Dreamfall is easily the best game I have ever played; no game has ever made me as emotional as that game did. I'd even put it slightly above TLJ, simply because it was a bit more profound. I was thinking about Dreamfall (and still am) for weeks after I'd finished it. And as far as I'm concerned, that's the mark of not only a good game, but a brilliant game.
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| 27 MAR 2007 at 12:44pm |
The WolfboySorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 304
Joined: 16 FEB 2006
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Scarecrow (26 MAR 2007 10:14pm)
I don't understand gamers' aversion to cliffhanger endings.
It's quite simple. You're paying for one full game, and you're not getting it.
We're not talking about 'Flash Gordon' serials here, we're discussing what is essentially a game which was not completed, and simply resorted to the 'cliffhanger ending' style in order to excuse that. It's been done before many times.
Remember, games are like movies - each is a self-contained storyline, capable of standing on their own merit. Consider how movie series use cliffhanger endings; Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, the Alien series - all of which have a full story that can stand on its own per individual screening, but ultimately draws on each other for their cinematic integrity.
When this technique is employed in games, it works very well. Baldur's Gate is a good example of this, as is Deus Ex, Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, the Gabriel Knight series, and so on. Look at the games which are based as part of an ongoing progressive series, and see why they DON'T have fans complaining about the endings.
Then, look at the games that do. Games like this one, Knights of the Old Republic 2, the Soul Reaver series, and so on. Each of those weren't 'finished', they were simply abandoned, and the ending tweaked to give the impression of a cliffhanger ending. It's a net result of rushing a game through production to meet deadlines. Hell, HHGTTG ended before you'd even got to Magrathea, and people still don't complain about that, because the game itself worked. It was complete in and of itself.
There's a very easy way to tell when this problem is occuring - pacing. When playing through the game, you get a sense of pacing. If, at the end of the game, events are suddenly sped up, leaving you missing key plot points that should be otherwise important to the game's main climactic moments, then you're suddenly aware that it's incomplete.
If Dreamfall WAS about the Faith storyline, then why do we only learn about Faith in the last two chapters of the game? It broke with the pacing of the storyline, forcing the events to feel rushed and indistinct. The game just flat-out wasn't finished, and cramming as much of the storyline into the last half-hour of gametime doesn't make up for the fact.
To reiterate - the problem is -not- with 'cliffhanger' endings in games, it's with games using a 'cliffhanger ending' scenario to cover for the fact that it wasn't finished in the first place.
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| 27 MAR 2007 at 1:33pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Scarecrow (26 MAR 2007 10:14pm)
I don't understand gamers' aversion to cliffhanger endings.
They are a cheap cop-out that makes the player feel cheated, that's why.
Here's another analogy. Imagine going to the movies to see a film called 'Kill Bill'. At the end you're told that this was actually only Volume 1 and Volume 2 might or might not be released a few years down the track. If you would appreciate that as a masterful stroke of film-making, I can only admire your capability for self-deception.
Besides, Ragnar has stated that Dreamfall was primarily about the Faith story, and later continuations will explore the larger connection to Arcadia and the Balance.
As a gamer, I don't particularly care for what its author did or didn't state. If a game can't stand on its own without additional explanations, it is deficient.
Dreamfall is easily the best game I have ever played; no game has ever made me as emotional as that game did.
Play more games reamfall was quite good, but not that good.
I forgot my sig.
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| 27 MAR 2007 at 9:08pm |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | Here's another analogy. Imagine going to the movies to see a film called 'Kill Bill'. At the end you're told that this was actually only Volume 1 and Volume 2 might or might not be released a few years down the track. If you would appreciate that as a masterful stroke of film-making, I can only admire your capability for self-deception.
I'm not a Kill Bill fan, but my friend is, and I'm fairly certain Kill Bill was intended to be a single movie, that was split into two parts due to obvious time constraints.
As a gamer, I don't particularly care for what its author did or didn't state. If a game can't stand on its own without additional explanations, it is deficient.
You're right, and the game should have to stand on its own (which I think Dreamfall does), but like literature, the author's intention can sometimes clarify questions you might have at the end of the experience.
Play more games Grin reamfall was quite good, but not that good.
I've been playing games for 15 years.
Remember, games are like movies - each is a self-contained storyline, capable of standing on their own merit.
You're being suckered into believing that games (and movies) have to follow a rigid, unforgiving formula. There is no rule anywhere that states that each film/book/game in a series must be self-contained. Often, the story is conceived as a whole, and divided up into parts that are easier to manage (no one wants to sit through a six hour movie.)
I think the problem is with gamers' patients. If I play a trilogy (or series) of games, I'm expecting it to have one ending, not three. When that happens, it feels as though you have to begin all over again with each chapter.
There's a very easy way to tell when this problem is occurring - pacing. When playing through the game, you get a sense of pacing. If, at the end of the game, events are suddenly sped up, leaving you missing key plot points that should be otherwise important to the game's main climactic moments, then you're suddenly aware that it's incomplete.
All games speed up their pacing during the finale, for obvious reasons. A climax is supposed to get your heart racing. Also, because it's considered the "wrap-up" point, more videos play at this point that at any other time during the game. You mentioned LotR as an example of a series executed properly, but I remember there being about five pseudo-endings to RotK before it actually finished. And I should also point out that the ending of the first film was quite different to the ending of the first (or second, depending on how technical you want to get) book. Boromir actually dies at the beginning of The Two Towers, and I don't recall many readers complaining about that.
Anyway, I really do wish gamers had more patience, and I'll continue to defend Dreamfall as long as I have to, because in my eyes, it's an amazing artistic accomplishment.
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| 28 MAR 2007 at 6:48am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Scarecrow (27 MAR 2007 9:08pm)
I'm not a Kill Bill fan, but my friend is, and I'm fairly certain Kill Bill was intended to be a single movie, that was split into two parts due to obvious time constraints.
My point exactly. If Tarantino tried to push Kill Bill Vol. 1 as a standalone film, he'd be laughed out.
There is no rule anywhere that states that each film/book/game in a series must be self-contained.
But there is a rule saying that the customer is always right If people don't like a book/film/game/whatever, then it is a failure. And it does not matter how brilliant its author thinks it is.
Often, the story is conceived as a whole, and divided up into parts that are easier to manage (no one wants to sit through a six hour movie.)
Does the Dreamfall box state somewhere "hey, this ain't the whole game so don't complain at the end"? If it doesn't (and you know it doesn't), it is only natural that gamers expect a complete, finished story.
I forgot my sig.
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| 28 MAR 2007 at 10:56am |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | All those points are redundant if you believe (as I do, and with good reason) that Dreamfall DOES work as a standalone title. The fact that it's part of a larger story arc is something that only fans will appreciate, and in order to garner the interest of the average consumer, the game HAS to be marketed as a standalone piece of entertainment. But, like I said, this is all redundant if you're able to see the merits of the game itself.
And as for the customer always being right, you've obviously never worked in retail. on't mistake an adage for a truism; just because a phrase has become established in the general mindset, don't assume that it's factual. And generalisations are also something to stay clear of - there's no such thing as "the customer" or even "the typical customer".
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| 29 MAR 2007 at 3:17am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By MichalN (28 MAR 2007 6:47am)
Originally Posted By Scarecrow (27 MAR 2007 9:08pm)
I'm not a Kill Bill fan, but my friend is, and I'm fairly certain Kill Bill was intended to be a single movie, that was split into two parts due to obvious time constraints.
My point exactly. If Tarantino tried to push Kill Bill Vol. 1 as a standalone film, he'd be laughed out.
I don't think it was his idea, but if I were him, I would have fought harder, kept it as one film, and trimmed some fat.
I liked LJ2 okay enough to play it, but only because I had already heard it was not up not up to TLJ snuff, so I didn't expect it to be the greatest. It still had some good moments.
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| 29 MAR 2007 at 4:00am |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | It had some great moments. I don't think I've ever had my eyes so close to a screen as Zoe finally encountered Faith. And I don't think I've ever felt as eerily cold as when that giant doll house finally cracked open. No other game has left me with as many memorable "wow" moments as Dreamfall did.
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| 31 MAR 2007 at 12:19am |
lillyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 31 MAR 2007
Status : Online | I was disappointed. That isn't to say I didn't enjoy the experience of Dreamfall. It just....lacked several key things I look for in order to absolutely *love* a game.
For one, it was waaaaay too easy. I found myself surprised at the lack of adventure in the game. And I don't mean I wish they had stuck a bunch of pointless pixel hunts or slider puzzles in there. I hope to be able to feel like a part of the game - like I am trekking around meeting people, finding things, exploring the world created. With Dreamfall I felt like I was watching an interactive movie. It started off very good but then as the story opened in later chapters I felt like I was spending much more time watching cut scenes and action sequences. In fact, my husband (who doesn't play games) was in the room with me much of the time while I was "playing" reamfall. And even he remarked at the amount of time I was spending just sitting and watching.
I'm not a big fan of fighting sequences. Sorry, I'm just not. I'm an adventure gamer. So I wasn't thrilled at the fight scenes. Yes the ones that were hard were avoidable. But honestly? What value did they add to the game other than to stretch it out a bit and give the gamer a bit more time to be playing instead of watching? I do have to say that I didn't mind them as much as I thought I would, though.
Overall it just wasn't as good as TLJ. I loved TLJ. Yes it was hard, yes it was long but wow was it an ADVENTURE! I felt like I'd been through it all with April by the end of that game.
Again, I did enjoy Dreamfall. It was beautiful and sad and so well done visually. The music was lovely, I really liked all of the main characters and the voice talent was absolutely top-notch. I just wish they had taken the time to flesh out the game a bit more. Make it more interactive. Left more up to the gamer to figure out. And I agree with many here - the ending was just too much. A half an hour of 2 or 3 major plotlines opening at the end? I can take a cliffhanger ending but it was just too much thrown in.
And no, I don't expect all games to follow a strict formula. But I do like to play them rather than watch. I am keeping my hopes up that if there is a sequel to Dreamfall that is is more interactive with the gamer but just as beautiful and well-written as Dreamfall. One can hope, right?
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| 31 MAR 2007 at 1:07am |
nytimesguyPrivate Detective
Posts : 684
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Scarecrow (29 MAR 2007 4:00am)
It had some great moments. I don't think I've ever had my eyes so close to a screen as Zoe finally encountered Faith. And I don't think I've ever felt as eerily cold as when that giant doll house finally cracked open. No other game has left me with as many memorable "wow" moments as Dreamfall did.
It did have some wow moments, but they were all story wow moments. The best wow moments are those that are actually connected to the gameplay, where you feel amazed at what you and the game did together. If it's just you watching a movie on your computer, well, that's nice, but it's not a great *game* moment, which is what I like.
Charles - Game Theorist
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| 31 MAR 2007 at 2:23am |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | If there's one criticism I can agree with, it's about the lack of actual 'gameplay'. But unlike most people, I guess, I don't really feel as though that detracted from my experience. After all, we watch and appreciate movies without being able to interact with them, and Dreamfall was better than most of the movies I've ever seen. I think that for me, it was just an example of story and character development utterly trumping everything else, and turning what would have been a complete dealbreaker in another game into a minor peeve in this game.
I, for one, actually enjoy the idea of an interactive movie, if it's executed as brilliantly as Dreamfall was.
And the fighting sequences weren't that annoying. Neither were they that unnecessary. Conflict is something that would arise in that type of situation in the real world, and it really just served to give you a sense of 'impacting' with the other characters in a physical way. I really can't see it as something that was seriously wrong with the game.
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| 31 MAR 2007 at 3:44am |
lillyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 31 MAR 2007
Status : Online | I, for one, actually enjoy the idea of an interactive movie, if it's executed as brilliantly as Dreamfall was.
And therein lies the rub (for me anyway). I didn't buy DreamFall to enjoy an interactive movie (which I also would enjoy), I bought it to immerse myself in, enjoy and most of all play an adventure game.
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| 31 MAR 2007 at 6:35am |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | I really can't think of a game that I was more 'immersed' in than Dreamfall. I've never enjoyed a gaming world and its surrounding mythology more.
I think the problem with most people's experience with it is predicated upon their expectations. Even you, Lilly, said you would enjoy an interactive movie; so all you'd need to do to enjoy Dreamfall is to put your expectations aside.
It just seems that sometimes all people want in a sequel is a clone of the first game, except then they complain that the developer hasn't innovated or done anything new. I feel sorry for sequels. I really do.
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| 31 MAR 2007 at 6:55pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nytimesguy (31 MAR 2007 1:06am)
Originally Posted By Scarecrow (29 MAR 2007 4:00am)
It had some great moments. I don't think I've ever had my eyes so close to a screen as Zoe finally encountered Faith. And I don't think I've ever felt as eerily cold as when that giant doll house finally cracked open. No other game has left me with as many memorable "wow" moments as Dreamfall did.
It did have some wow moments, but they were all story wow moments. The best wow moments are those that are actually connected to the gameplay, where you feel amazed at what you and the game did together. If it's just you watching a movie on your computer, well, that's nice, but it's not a great *game* moment, which is what I like.
That's interesting. That was very much my reaction after playing The Longest Journey. I was caught up in the story, but at the same time felt no real sense of accomplishment, that I was essentially turning pages in an somewhat interactive book. I haven't played Dreamfall, but it sounds like it has the same problems. Looks like the developers made no attempt to address the negatives of The Longest Journey when making Dreamfall.
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| 1 APR 2007 at 3:26am |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | I'm interested to know what games you're comparing TLJ to. Adventure games typically have one primary sense of accomplishment: solving puzzles. Unlike action/adventure games, shooting games, role-playing games, etc., you have very little control over the environment and characters, in a real-time sense.
And, really, whilst playing TLJ, I felt a sense of accomplishment whenever I managed to advance the plot, simply because I couldn't wait to be exposed to more amazing narrative.
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| 1 APR 2007 at 4:15am |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Scarecrow (1 APR 2007 3:25am)
I'm interested to know what games you're comparing TLJ to. Adventure games typically have one primary sense of accomplishment: solving puzzles. Unlike action/adventure games, shooting games, role-playing games, etc., you have very little control over the environment and characters, in a real-time sense.
And, really, whilst playing TLJ, I felt a sense of accomplishment whenever I managed to advance the plot, simply because I couldn't wait to be exposed to more amazing narrative.
Right, puzzles should provide the main sense of accomplishment in adventure games. And TLJ's puzzles in no way matched up to the epic story and its setting. What games am I comparing TLJ to? Most adventure games that came before it, actually. TLJ was more or less was the forerunner of the current trend in adventure games, with the emphasis on story and minimal puzzles.
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| 1 APR 2007 at 4:51am |
ScarecrowIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 28
Joined: 26 MAR 2007
Status : Online | The problem here is that I prefer it that way. Which isn't to say that I dislike solving puzzles - I don't - but with any form of entertainment (movies, television shows, games, even music) I'm interested first and foremost in the plot. That could be because I'm a book person, though.
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| 1 APR 2007 at 9:04pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | After I finally figured out how to get around without getting to dizzy. : I found it kind of enjoyable, but I have to agree with Wolfie on the fighting sequences. they was awful, the timing was SO off. > For me that was probably the most challenging part of the game, trying to fight properly.
I thought both games worth playing but didnt find either one of them would make my top 10 but I still had fun with them.
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