| 4 MAR 2007 at 3:50pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By SirDave (3 MAR 2007 6:26pm)
Originally Posted By MichalN (3 MAR 2007 9:34am)
So, er, Lucien... why give out advice that you yourself aren't going to follow?
In Judge Michal's court the provocateur is curiously never held to accounts.
Fascinating... L21 and SD are not following L21's own advice about not feeding the trolls... M. was not talking to you and it can even be argued that by posting the way he did he implicitly agrees with the (erroneous) perception that Evil Betje is a "troll"... but that doesn't stop you from attacking him for NOT responding to the so-called "troll".
I'm sure you can find your own way to the entry flaming in Wikipedia.
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| 4 MAR 2007 at 4:57pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I've decided to delete my posts from this thread as is just becoming stupid and waaay off topic.
I should have ignored the provocation in the first place and not sunk to the same level.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 8 MAR 2007 at 10:13pm |
KewalakaSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 3 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Why would anybody release a disc that makes you go online to actually get the game? What's the point?
Not everyone has high speed internet access. I don't buy online games because it would take all day to download them.
&&[url=http://gametz.com/user/stuartj.html]My GameTZ page[/url]
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| 9 MAR 2007 at 2:37pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Kewalaka (8 MAR 2007 10:13pm)
Why would anybody release a disc that makes you go online to actually get the game? What's the point?
The game is on the disc. You only have to go online to validate it. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds even with dialup -- assuming their server is working.
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| 9 MAR 2007 at 8:33pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | The plan whereby TAC will publish a boxed version of the complete Sam and Max series only shows the total incongruity of the way Telltale chose to market the series.
We now have a situation where people like me paid up front because of the promise of the complete game on a disk. At that point (before the 1st episode was released) there was no indication as to how intrusive the 'unlocking'/validation procedure would be (described by me above). So, what form will the final disk take. I don't think we really know what will be on that disk, but it almost certainly will require the same validation process.
Now, here it is months from now and I will presumably receive that disk from Telltale with all its validation limitations, but down at my local Bestbuy will be a disk of the whole series for something like anywhere from $29.95 (maybe $39.95?) and people will be able to install it and deinstall it as many times as they want with no internet connection. (If it were otherwise, it would be a first for TAC, again AFAIK). This just doesn't seem right.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 9 MAR 2007 at 9:24pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Never buy a pig in a poke.
I will explain that to anyone who is unfamiliar with English vernacular.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 1:54am |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Can you only install the game on one computer? If so, then I'm slightly annoyed - bought the season pack and I'd like to play whenever and wherever I want, really.
All this nonsense about how hard it is to log-on for verification - it's somewhat like complaining that games 'now come on CD instead of floppy-disk'. If they'd just let you download the game it'd be distributed via torrents in no time, and most computers are online full-time or can log-on for a minute to validate.
I really, really like the model of online distribution like this, both as a customer and as a
developer. Sam'n'Max is the only game I've bought in months, but I'm really enjoying it... it feels like a good tv-series with re-used sets and new additions every time. I could do with a larger storyline, but episodic gaming is a bit new for that.
Good to see episodic gaming being done properly, though. Valve with their 'episodic Half Life' is just releasing smaller games in smaller times and calling it episodic to live on the hype. Or that's my view. I quite like smaller games on a regular basis
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 2:56pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (11 MAR 2007 1:54am)
If they'd just let you download the game it'd be distributed via torrents in no time
sorry to burst your bubble about the ideal copy protection there jeroen, but everything is crackable (which is what history has proven over and over again, but most developers don't seem to learn)... right as we speak you can find dloadable versions of all sam'n'max episodes that have the online protection removed (ie you can install it anywhere you want, anytime you want)... as per usual, developers managed to screw the ppl that pay their money to them, while the ppl that get the games for free also avoid all the harassment... personally i haven't bought sam'n'max yet (waiting for the complete version to come out), but when i do, if it still has online protection crap, i will be using a crack (like i do with all the games i own that have any kind of protection)
some time, all the ppl who support those developers should stop buying altogether, dload the cracked versions and email the developers saying "we are dloading your game cracked, because we've had it with all this crap"... if everyone did that, maybe then they would finally learn....
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 3:29pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I think developers know that their game will be cracked.
Traditionally the majority of normal game sales are in the first 2 weeks and then people are on to something new. Adventure games tend to have a longer shelf life and episodic games will sell in cycles (i.e Releases of further episodes increase sales of prior episodes at same time)
Developers want copy protection to hold for those 2 weeks to maximise sales before it is pirated. Unfortunatly it never works. Most games hit the pirate nets within a day (sometime even before release *cough*doom3*cough*) New copy protections are broken VERY quickly.
I think they have tried everything apart from a DNA scan and iris print protection so far.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 3:51pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (11 MAR 2007 3:29pm)
I think developers know that their game will be cracked.
actually, i don't think they do! well, not all of them anyway... if they did know, there wouldn't be all kinds of "new, improved, let's torture the legal customer even more" protections... that fact shows that developers constantly think "this is it, now we're safe"
Unfortunatly it never works. Most games hit the pirate nets within a day (sometime even before release *cough*doom3*cough*) New copy protections are broken VERY quickly.
you took the words right out of my mouth... i don't think that developers are even aware, not only that their games will be cracked in no time, but crack groups actually hold contests on who will be the first to crack a game! they even have a code of honor, that the first one to crack a game has a certain amount of time to be the only one that can release it! (which leads to fast, not working cracks sometimes, and then, when the "exclusive time" has passed, another group comes up with a proper crack, mocking the first cracker, calling them lamers and all the usual!)
I think they have tried everything apart from a DNA scan and iris print protection so far.
sssshhhhh! don't give them ideas... next thing you know legal customers will be putting their eyes and fingers in weird devices, while dloaders laugh in the background, enjoying the hassle-free cracks :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 4:44pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya (11 MAR 2007 3:50pm)
actually, i don't think they do! well, not all of them anyway... if they did know, there wouldn't be all kinds of "new, improved, let's torture the legal customer even more" protections... that fact shows that developers constantly think "this is it, now we're safe"
You're wrong - sort of - and Lucien is right: developers know the copy protection will be cracked. They are (some of them) programmers and they aren't entirely stupid
It is the publishers who force copy protection schemes onto the unsuspecting public. Most developers probably consider copy protection a complete waste of time, but if the choice is between adding copy protection and not having a game published, well, that's not much of a choice, is it. Bottom line - blame the publishers, not the developers.
Note that precisely because a publisher chooses if and how a game will be copy protected, you may find different editions of the same game with different copy protection schemes or even some editions protected and others not.
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 5:18pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (11 MAR 2007 4:43pm)
You're wrong - sort of - and Lucien is right: developers know the copy protection will be cracked. They are (some of them) programmers and they aren't entirely stupid
It is the publishers who force copy protection schemes onto the unsuspecting public. Most developers probably consider copy protection a complete waste of time, but if the choice is between adding copy protection and not having a game published, well, that's not much of a choice, is it. Bottom line - blame the publishers, not the developers.
Note that precisely because a publisher chooses if and how a game will be copy protected, you may find different editions of the same game with different copy protection schemes or even some editions protected and others not.
yeah, i think you're right... well, in most cases anyway (eg telltale were publishing bone on their own, but they still implemented a copy protection)... on the other hand, there are publishers that respect their customers and remove the protections... thumbs up to the adventure company for following that policy (now the question arises: game with original title and artwork but protected, or hassle-free game with inane tac title/artwork changes?!)
and i'll take the opportunity to rant once again, and say if the publishers or developers or whatever focused on offering the paying customer a nice box, manual etc instead of spending time and money on useless protections everything would be working out much better... instead, now games have reached the point where there is no difference between a bought and a cracked one (they're both just a bunch of files), except that the cracked ones don't torment the user... so all that's left is the customer's "sense of what's right"... how stupider can you get? : (and don't tell me telltale doesn't have the budget for boxes etc pls)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 8:39pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya (11 MAR 2007 2:56pm)
Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (11 MAR 2007 1:54am)
If they'd just let you download the game it'd be distributed via torrents in no time
sorry to burst your bubble about the ideal copy protection there jeroen, but everything is crackable (which is what history has proven over and over again, but most developers don't seem to learn)... right as we speak you can find dloadable versions of all sam'n'max episodes that have the online protection removed (ie you can install it anywhere you want, anytime you want)... as per usual, developers managed to screw the ppl that pay their money to them, while the ppl that get the games for free also avoid all the harassment... personally i haven't bought sam'n'max yet (waiting for the complete version to come out), but when i do, if it still has online protection crap, i will be using a crack (like i do with all the games i own that have any kind of protection)
some time, all the ppl who support those developers should stop buying altogether, dload the cracked versions and email the developers saying "we are dloading your game cracked, because we've had it with all this crap"... if everyone did that, maybe then they would finally learn....
You're not bursting any bubbles. I can't see, however, how having to download a separate crack is beneficial to you compared to downloading a separate key? I've looked into it, and you can install it on any machine you want, all you have to do is download a one-time key - not sure how it works, but from that point on you can play without internet connection. Just that. One key. Anytime you want, any place you want. It's a lot preferable to forcing CD's (I keep losing the damn things by lending them to people I shouldn't trust). Unless you're completely without internet the moment you buy the CD, I can't see what the problem is. Otherwise, you downloaded the games, so you must be able to go online.
It's not really crap. I really hated the CD policy, but I'm practically always online now, with DSL. So if they can provide patches, automatic updates or news messages when I log in (ergo, people who are legal get the good stuff), I am a happy man.
As for bubbles, I know nothing is safe. But some protection is, in my eyes, better as none at all.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 8:56pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (11 MAR 2007 8:39pm)
It's not really crap. I really hated the CD policy, but I'm practically always online now, with DSL. So if they can provide patches, automatic updates or news messages when I log in (ergo, people who are legal get the good stuff), I am a happy man.
Good for you. Now, how certain are you that Telltale will be always online too? In a year from now? Ten years?
If I was going to buy a game that might become unusable at any point due to circumstances that I cannot control, it had better be dirt cheap. For a normal priced game, I want something more than a hope that the publisher will stay in business.
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 9:29pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (11 MAR 2007 8:39pm)
I can't see, however, how having to download a separate crack is beneficial to you compared to downloading a separate key? I've looked into it, and you can install it on any machine you want, all you have to do is download a one-time key - not sure how it works, but from that point on you can play without internet connection. Just that. One key. Anytime you want, any place you want.
It's one key per computer. Not reusable. Your hard drive goes bad, you have to ask for a new key. The game plays slow on one computer and you want to play it on your new computer, you have to ask for a new key. You decide you want the game on your laptop so you can play it during a trip, you have to ask for a new key.
With a crack you can play the game on any computer you decide to install the game on and you don't have to ask permission from anyone. No worries about whether the company is going to be there supporting the game in 5 years.
Check here near the bottom
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1396
It's about the Bone games, but the Sam & Max games are the same way.
Q: I uninstalled one of your games, and now I want to play it again. How do I do this?
A: Simply download and install the game again. If you're using the same computer as before, the game will most likely activate automatically. If it doesn't, or if you're trying to activate it on a new computer, click "I've already purchased this" in the Reminder window and enter your order number and order password. If you don't remember your order number or order password, contact our support team for assistance.
Q: Do I need an internet connection to play your games?
A: An internet connection is needed to download our games, as well as to activate them. This includes activation of the CD versions of our Bone games.
If you don't have an internet connection, the CD versions of the Bone games can be activated manually. To do this, click on Activation Support at the bottom of the first game screen. This will provide you with your computer's hardware fingerprint code. Send this code to our support team, along with your order number or some other information that will help us identify you (such as your first and last name, or the email address you used to place the order), and we will send back an activation key that allows you to activate the game manually.
Update your computer or get a new one and that code won't be the same. It's not reusable. Fine for people who only play their games once and toss them -- and who don't mind contacting support for all their "activated" games if they have computer problems. Not so good for those who like to replay old favorites 5 or 10 or more years down the road.
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 10:13pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
I think both game publishers and developers are being driven to irrational policies by paranoia over piracy. They all damn well better know that people across the world crack their codes almost instantly and that the only ones who end up suffering from overly aggressive protection schemes are their own paying customers. This is equally true for games distributed via the web and/or on retail CD/DVDs.
Telltale is a perfect example of a company that has instituted a counter-productive policy like this that penalized legal users and does absolutely nothing to deter illegal downloads or copying by a massive global community of people who very obviously don't care if their are effectively stealing or not.
To be fair though, I don't care what kind of squirrely semantics software pirates hide behind. They are stealing code and using it illegally, against the rightful owner's clearly stated wishes and they know exactly what they're doing is a petty crime. They just don't care.
In the end, I have a great deal more sympathy for the hard-working people who create, promote and sell the games than those who steal from them and generate the level of fear that results in ridiculous burdens on legal users like myself. I have even less sympathy (as in none) for anyone who tries to profit from illegally copied software.
If it comes down to having to put up with a few minor inconveniences in order to play new games, I'll do it. I will not however buy any game at any price that requires multiple key codes only available over the net from a company that may or may not be in business a few years from now. I wouldn't purchase a movie video, music CD / file or any other kind of software through any channels with that kind of unreasonable restriction and have no intention of making an exception for games.
Cheers, Terry
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| 11 MAR 2007 at 10:54pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (11 MAR 2007 9:28pm)
Update your computer or get a new one and that code won't be the same. It's not reusable. Fine for people who only play their games once and toss them -- and who don't mind contacting support for all their "activated" games if they have computer problems. Not so good for those who like to replay old favorites 5 or 10 or more years down the road.
Actually, you absolutely misread that. 'if you're trying to activate it on a new computer, click "I've already purchased this" in the Reminder window and enter your order number and order password'. On the forum there was a person who had special software that adapted his computer for whatever reason, which changed the computer key very often; he had to re-check his key every time that happened: but he could still install it. I can go to school tomorrow and install it there to show my peers and still play it at home without contacting anybody: all I need is my client number and a password. It's the same story as with Steam; You have one account with games that you can install where-ever you want. A Telltale forum member even said they liked you to (emphasising that it's O-K to do so).
The only thing that is kind-of worrying is that they can go out of business, yes. But by the time that happens they can provide a final key themselves. They won't be blown out of the sky in a manner of seconds.
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| 12 MAR 2007 at 1:08am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (11 MAR 2007 10:54pm)
The only thing that is kind-of worrying is that they can go out of business, yes. But by the time that happens they can provide a final key themselves. They won't be blown out of the sky in a manner of seconds.
If this doesn't bother you then go ahead and buy it. For myself, I have a large collection of adventure games some of which are now 12+ years old. I enjoy being able to install them on various computers/laptops and only having to face the challenge of the compatibility of the operating system & hardware, not the fact that they might have a validation system requiring activation from a long-dead company.
In your scenario you are assuming that the company will die slowly and put its house in order before it quits (including giving everyone a permanent validation key). That's not the way most software companies go under. Most of them fall apart fairly quickly and often, the common denominator is finances. People are fired or leave the company quickly and that may include the programmers who would be the ones that have the know-how to issue a final 'key'. In addition, there would have to be money allocated to shut things down gracefully including the time spent to take care of the customers. This doesn't tend to happen when a company is falling apart.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 12 MAR 2007 at 1:13am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (11 MAR 2007 10:54pm)
The only thing that is kind-of worrying is that they can go out of business, yes. But by the time that happens they can provide a final key themselves. They won't be blown out of the sky in a manner of seconds.
yeah, they probably will provide a final key... so, let's suppose that within the next 10 years, one buys about 100 games from several different companies... suppose all those games have that particular protection... is that person supposed to permanently be paying attention to what is happening to each company and whether there will be a final key for each one of those games? i'm not planning to do that, thank you... if you are, more power to you!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 12 MAR 2007 at 2:00am |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Such a patch could work like the Sacrifice no-cd patch Shiny made. It's there on many download sites. I lost my Sacrifice CD and had to torrent the game, and with their patch I could play it without problems. Yes, there is the question whether this will happen 'soon enough' when a company goes bankrupt, but if it does not there always still are the cracked versions around still. It's a problem that arises from downloadable games, there has to be some inhibition that stops people from downloading the game for free right away. It always happens, yes, but regardless, it might make a difference in finances. I very much doubt this will go away any time soon, as it seems the logical step in a world where everybody is online all the time.
As for buying it, I already did, the whole season. And I'm very much enjoying it. In many ways, I can picture myself dancing on a green grass field in the middle of a forest surrounded by frolicking nymphs, singing "oh, I'm playing this wonderful game without worries".
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