| 15 FEB 2007 at 7:09am |
SkyeSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 348
Joined: 20 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hi Ghostlady,
I know what you are going through :'( Scavenger Hunter was hacked by a group called RELOADED and is now all over the "torrent" sites and numerous warez sites in China and Thailand (one Thai site even has the illegal disk for sale!!!)
What I have done is to write to the contact person for the websites and advised them that the game they have listed is an ILLEGAL copy and that I am the LEGAL copyright holder of the game and would they please remove the post, page, whatever from their site. Where possible I send the request in both english and the language of the web site owner.
Some have been decent and have removed the link others - well they're jerks I guess.
If you want to report the site for having pirated software you can report them here:
https://reporting-emea.bsa.org/english/home.aspx
Just for curiousity sake I checked in Google and it looks like Intrigue At Oakhaven has suffered a similar hacking to my own game. It is available for download from a number of sites.
Isn't it horrible that people out there have no respect for other people's property!!!
Let me tell you, it has certainly put me off wanting to put all that work into another game when the hackers just come along and walk off with it >
Hope this has been some help and really, I can sympathise with you :'(
Skye
Indie Developer of Scavenger Hunter&&The Replayable Adventure Game!&&- 4,446 scenes, 5,796 overlays,&&- First Indie Adventure Game&& To Use A.I. Randomizer Technology,&&- 7 years in the making!!! RELEASED !!!&&&&Order yours now at:&&[url]http://www.Sagewood-Software.ca[/url]
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| 15 FEB 2007 at 7:13am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Yes, that's exactly what it looks like - someone is giving away your game for free. >
I don't know how you can stop it, but I hope you succeed. Go kick ass.
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| 15 FEB 2007 at 7:16am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Cindy, I was reading the comments for Oakhaven, and one poster/downloader commented that there were no setup files for your game, and that "It looks like it would have a been a good game." Maybe this is a hinderance to an illegal download.
Oakhaven has been rated excellent by the thieving downloaders, but I realize that isn't really helping you and offers very little consolation. The illegal downloads site has posted the address to your website (not even a hyperlink!), and another comment was made that a filetype had to be cracked in order to play the game but again - they are getting it free if the downloaders can get the filetype they need to "unpack" it.
What really gets me is the site's owners have the audicity to post this as their "disclaimer":
"None of the files shown here are hosted or transmitted by this server. The links are provided solely by this site's users. The administrator of this site (name removed) cannot be held responsible for what its users post, or any other actions of its users. You may not use this site to distribute or download any material when you do not have the legal rights to do so. It is your own responsibility to adhere to these terms."
What crap.
I noticed a poll asking the downloaders their age. The most prevalent illegal downloaders fell into the age "20-25" category. Quite a few from the age "50+" category were listed, too:
==========================
How old are you?
20-25 - 759 (26%)
30-39 - 515 (18%)
14-19 - 468 (16%)
50+ - 399 (13%)
26-29 - 325 (11%)
40-49 - 311 (10%)
13- - 75 (2%)
==========================
Shameful. And the real heck of it is...it's a "clean" site. No pop-ups, no Spyware, no Adware, no Trojans...I checked all that out.
Now...the actual downloads themselves I wouldn't trust but I've never downloaded a game illegally and wouldn't ever think of doing so. I don't even download songs illegally. Never have, never will.
I still have Half-Life 2 Collector's Edition wrapped up because I don't want to download an illegal crack to play it but on the other hand, I don't want to get involved with the Steam on-line registration and content delivery system, either. My loss, I suppose.
Anyway: yes, I would let the other developers know, and I would send those people an email demanding that they remove your game from their website immediately. A "Cease and Desist" letter. Otherwise, you will take legal action to have their website shut down.
You'll have plenty of support in this if you let enough developers know that they are getting ripped off, too.
Good luck, dear. We're behind you.
NOTE: Edited to remove illegal downloads site name
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 15 FEB 2007 at 9:59am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Ghostlady - my advice is, forget about it. Life isn't fair and never will be.
I am a professional software developer (not in the game business though). I used to work for a company that had a fairly popular commercial utility which was widely pirated. The utility was free for trial download, but it expired after 21 days and had to be registered. The pirates would either distribute cracked versions or create key generators, so that people could generate their own registration keys.
A developer faces a simple choice - fight pirates or ignore them.
If you decide to fight them, you will spend a lot of time on it. You can not defeat pirates technically (any protection scheme can be cracked). You are rather unlikely to defeat them legally, especially if they are in third world countries. Even if you do defeat the pirates, you will only get moral satisfaction. You will not get more paying customers because the people who download pirated software usually can't or won't pay the full price.
Or you can decide to forget about pirates and spend your time on developing your product, to satisfy your current customers (if you had a product with upgrades) and gain new ones. If you had a large company with lots of idle lawyers, you could afford to sent them chasing pirates. If you are a small company or an individual, fighting pirates will only waste your time.
Of course, the decision is only yours. You have to decide how to spend your time.
I forgot my sig.
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| 15 FEB 2007 at 11:20am |
SkyeSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 348
Joined: 20 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (15 FEB 2007 9:59am)
Ghostlady - my advice is, forget about it. Life isn't fair and never will be.
A developer faces a simple choice - fight pirates or ignore them.
If you decide to fight them, you will spend a lot of time on it. You can not defeat pirates technically (any protection scheme can be cracked). You are rather unlikely to defeat them legally, especially if they are in third world countries. Even if you do defeat the pirates, you will only get moral satisfaction. You will not get more paying customers because the people who download pirated software usually can't or won't pay the full price.
I have to agree with you Michael. It takes a lot of time tracking down the sites that list illegal software and downloads. Another problem is that probably 90% of the ones that do have listing are in a language other than English. This slows the process down because you need to get the pages translated to see if the site really is advertising hacked software or just has a link for you program.
Piracy is a sad state of affairs but there seem to be too many of them and not enough of us. . . . .
Indie Developer of Scavenger Hunter&&The Replayable Adventure Game!&&- 4,446 scenes, 5,796 overlays,&&- First Indie Adventure Game&& To Use A.I. Randomizer Technology,&&- 7 years in the making!!! RELEASED !!!&&&&Order yours now at:&&[url]http://www.Sagewood-Software.ca[/url]
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| 15 FEB 2007 at 1:37pm |
JA-Staff2Private Detective
Posts : 466
Joined: 4 JUN 2004
Location: 0
Status : Online | Ghostlady - I went ahead and removed the link you posted. I agree with you that it is what it looks like. Unfortunately, posting the link will just drive more people to that site to 'steal' your game and JA has a strict policy about posting links to pirate sites.
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| 15 FEB 2007 at 10:34pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | What a smart thing to do (remove the link). I never even thought about that. I even registered at that site so I could post a comment telling them off, but then couldn't find out how to post the comment - so much good that did... [smiley=doh.gif]
I've never stolen a game like that and I don't think I ever will, but it's part of today's culture isn't it.
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| 15 FEB 2007 at 11:51pm |
GhostladyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 72
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | JA, I apologize for posting the link, it didn't dawn on me that I was giving them advertisement.
I feel good!!! I emailed the Server Host last night and threatened that I was going to sue. I also informed them that not only was my game out on the site but products like McAfee and many other illegal files. When I checked the site today, up popped this message.
Unfortunately we are unable to keep this site running on this server anymore, I'm afraid to tell you that we may be unable to keep this going for a while or maybe permanent.
Peace.
So who says the little guy can't cause a reaction. Not saying it won't show up again on another site but 1 down seems like a great accomplishment right now.
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 12:32am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | The taboo site still works fine for me.
It looks just the same as before.
All the links I checked seem to work.
Anyone else able to see it?
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 12:42am |
JA-Staff2Private Detective
Posts : 466
Joined: 4 JUN 2004
Location: 0
Status : Online | No need to apologize Ghostlady.
I think those sites need to be brought down. Glad you were able to get some action on it.
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 7:31am |
SkyeSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 348
Joined: 20 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Ghostlady another thing you can do if you find commercial software programs on pirate sites is go to the commercial software programs site and report to them that you have seen their program (stating which one) on the pirate web site.
These guys have a lot more money than we little guys do!
This action was recommended by one of the "stop piracy" sites I found while worrying about my own game getting ripped off.
Skye
Indie Developer of Scavenger Hunter&&The Replayable Adventure Game!&&- 4,446 scenes, 5,796 overlays,&&- First Indie Adventure Game&& To Use A.I. Randomizer Technology,&&- 7 years in the making!!! RELEASED !!!&&&&Order yours now at:&&[url]http://www.Sagewood-Software.ca[/url]
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 2:58pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Caroline (15 FEB 2007 10:34pm)
I've never stolen a game like that and I don't think I ever will, but it's part of today's culture isn't it.
depends if by "today's culture" you mean the past 25+ years! piracy has been around as long as software has been around, and let me tell you, ppl are more concious about what's right and wrong in this area nowadays than they were 10 and 20 years ago... if they do what's right or not, that's a whole different story... the only thing that has changed is that in the past you had to call your local pirate, while now you can just dload!
from experience from being around the gaming world for over 20 years, i can tell you that fighting piracy is like fighting the lernaean hydra... any strike against it that you make, there will be twice the sites/pirates/crackers/whatever that will appear... same goes for copy protections... imo, the best thing for a developer to do is promote their games and keep the ppl's minds aware of what's right and wrong... instead of spending valuable time and money to fight an invincible enemy, spend that time and money to promote your product to the right ppl, make it better, present it in a nice box with a couple of goodies, so that the customers who support you will feel that they're being treated right... this is the way to fight piracy, and not implementing copy protections, suing sites etc etc that only cost huge amounts of time and money and eventuraly only hurt the buying customer
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 5:02pm |
| Deleted User | Well, I guess you could say that this phenomenon was pretty widespread even before home computers were commonplace, with bootlegging of music and movies. It seems an impossible war for the media industry to fight. I recently read that the new safety schemes of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs (the successors to the DVD format) that the movie industry invested millions in, has now been fully cracked, and few people even own such systems yet!
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 5:28pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | If it's any consolation, my guess is the type of individuals who download adventure games from these sites is the type that wouldn't ever pay for them anyway. In other words, it's not really a lost market. That doesn't justify it in the slightest or diminish the insult, but I do think it's somewhat different from the illegal dvd-copying market in the sense that many of the people getting illegal copies would have paid $9.95 or whatever if they absolutely had to for a given DVD.
The adventure game community, on the other hand, is one wherein IMO, by far the majority, want a new game 'now' and are willing to support good indie games as long as they are reasonably priced. I just don't get the feeling that in that niche market very many of us say, 'Well, I'm looking forward to that game, but I'll just wait until I can find a free download.'.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 5:31pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (16 FEB 2007 5:02pm)
Well, I guess you could say that this phenomenon was pretty widespread even before home computers were commonplace, with bootlegging of music and movies. It seems an impossible war for the media industry to fight.
Taping has been killing music for what, thirty or forty years now? Bootlegging of software and especially games has been common for about thirty years now. At the same time, the gaming industry is now worth as much as Hollywood.
It is curious that Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office were (probably still are) the most widely pirated software packages. It would be difficult to argue that piracy has hurt Microsoft in the face of facts. While companies like Adobe will do their best to shut down commercial pirates who sell pirated software, they don't mind all that much if some high school kid installs a bootleg copy of Photoshop on his home PC. They know that once the kid grows up and gets a job, he'll buy the software.
This doesn't help the small software developer much... but he or she can at least sleep sounder in the knowledge that only software that no one wants is not pirated. The sign of a popular application is that it shows up on every warez site in the known Universe.
I recently read that the new safety schemes of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs (the successors to the DVD format) that the movie industry invested millions in, has now been fully cracked, and few people even own such systems yet!
That, however, was predictable. Anyone who thinks DRM as a technical measure can work is ignorant and/or deluded. A good cracker is almost certainly smarter than you and better motivated. There are probably people who crack copy protection schemes instead of solving crossword puzzles.
I forgot my sig.
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 5:44pm |
| Deleted User | I wonder how they're going to tackle the new ideas of encoding the video signals even in the monitor cables, requiring special hardware to decode it. I've not read much about this yet but it looks like something we might have to get used to. Nevertheless, I'm sure there will be someone clever out there who will crack even that.
There's too little research on how piracy affects the market. It's clearly incorrect to count every pirated copy as a lost sale, as only a few of them actually have that effect. Also, pirated copies may indeed lead to legal purchase, and if the quality of the item is good, it helps to spread it among people, which may trigger even more purchases. If you think about it, a lot of marketing is based on providing free, legal copies of something, which is conceptually not very different. However, you can't avoid the fact that it's not fair that someone pays for something that another one gets for free. Payment is typically not considered an optional "charity" kind of thing.
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 5:53pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (16 FEB 2007 5:28pm)
If it's any consolation, my guess is the type of individuals who download adventure games from these sites is the type that wouldn't ever pay for them anyway. In other words, it's not really a lost market.
That is an important point. The digital age presents some interesting paradoxes - the pirate gained software without paying for it, yet the developer did not lose a prospective customer.
This is why "stealing" is such an inappropriate term for it, because instead of something missing, there is something new. Unauthorized copying is a far more accurate term.
Economic theory has known for a long time that different people assign different value to the same good or service. To person A, a game may be worth $40. To person B, it may be worth $1 (ie. if the game costs more, they won't buy it). For physical goods, the consequence is that person B won't get the good. For digital media, it only means that person B won't purchase a licensed copy.
Ideally, the developer would sell a product to every customer for the highest price the customer is willing to pay (as long as there is profit - but for software in electronic form only, the break-even price point would be quite low). This is of course impractical (though with auctions and the Internet, there are some interesting possibilities!). So the developer has to set a price and watch how some people pay for the product and others pirate it - meaning that the product is worth something to them, but less than the asking price. The best the developer can do, and this is of course often done, is starting with a higher price and lowering it over time.
I forgot my sig.
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| 16 FEB 2007 at 6:00pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (16 FEB 2007 5:44pm)
There's too little research on how piracy affects the market.
Makes you wonder why - maybe the results would not be what some people want to hear
It's clearly incorrect to count every pirated copy as a lost sale, as only a few of them actually have that effect. Also, pirated copies may indeed lead to legal purchase, and if the quality of the item is good, it helps to spread it among people, which may trigger even more purchases. If you think about it, a lot of marketing is based on providing free, legal copies of something, which is conceptually not very different.
This is true. I'm sure piracy affects different products differently, sometimes it helps and sometimes it hurts. I could not guess whether it mostly hurts or mostly helps. In any case, I don't think the impact of piracy is all that important.
However, you can't avoid the fact that it's not fair that someone pays for something that another one gets for free.
It's not fair. It's also not fair that some people can afford to spend a lot more than other people who work equally hard. Life isn't fair.
Payment is typically not considered an optional "charity" kind of thing.
There are a number of small software project that work exactly like that.
I forgot my sig.
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| 17 FEB 2007 at 4:24am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By MichalN (16 FEB 2007 5:59pm)
Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (16 FEB 2007 5:44pm)
There's too little research on how piracy affects the market.
Makes you wonder why - maybe the results would not be what some people want to hear
Yes, but still... There are so many universities out there, independent of the movie/music/game industry, that have departments in social and economic research. Clearly, this subject with all its public interest should be of great interest to these sciences, and seems a suitable topic for dissertations... Well, it does in my eyes anyway. Maybe we just haven't heard of them.
There certainly are alternate ways of making business. I recently watched an interesting seminar on TV, featuring Muhammad Yunus, the guy who won the 2006 Nobel Peace Price for his founding of Grameen Bank in Bangladesh. His ideas about social enterprises are very interesting. Not everything has to be profit-maximizing, and can thrive precisely because it isn't trying to bring a profit to the owner.
This is true. I'm sure piracy affects different products differently, sometimes it helps and sometimes it hurts. I could not guess whether it mostly hurts or mostly helps. In any case, I don't think the impact of piracy is all that important.
There is a good example of this from my university, where a Swedish representative for Microsoft had arranged a deal that allowed IT students to get free access to most of their software (such as the .NET package, Office and other expensive products) without even the need to uninstall it from their systems after graduation. Many of these students are probably active pirates when it comes to these products, which they cannot usually afford the regular way, and at the same time it benefits Microsoft that people graduate with skills in their software, which they are more likely to use in their future endevours as well. On the other hand, it makes sense that they are going after pirates in Eastern Europe or Asia, where illegal copies are often so common that even commercial companies widely use them illegally. They lose on some people pirating, they might even win on others doing it, and therefore find ways to legalize it where appropriate.
It's not fair. It's also not fair that some people can afford to spend a lot more than other people who work equally hard. Life isn't fair.
That's a good point, and I guess the truth is that it has not to do so much with the morality of it, as the fact that our economic systems wouldn't work if the value of money was so loosely defined that price would not matter.
There are a number of small software project that work exactly like that.
Yeah, and for a small project it can work really well. It's more difficult for a big one. But generally, people want to pay. It's just a question of how much versus how good it makes them feel to do the "right thing". If people just paid blindly, we'd just get worse and worse products and services. Where there is a free market, people control the quality with their money.
By the way, the money that used to go directly to the entertainment industry back when there was no widespread use of the Internet, isn't that just going now to the providers of fast broadband connections and ridiculously large hard drives, recordable optical discs and so on instead? For companies like Sony, that's just money out of one account and into another. Not that it affects the morality of piracy, but it illustrates again that things aren't black and white.
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| 17 FEB 2007 at 1:36pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (17 FEB 2007 4:24am)
By the way, the money that used to go directly to the entertainment industry back when there was no widespread use of the Internet, isn't that just going now to the providers of fast broadband connections and ridiculously large hard drives, recordable optical discs and so on instead? For companies like Sony, that's just money out of one account and into another. Not that it affects the morality of piracy, but it illustrates again that things aren't black and white.
It's always been that way. Companies making audio/VHS cassettes and the tape deck and VCR manufacturers made lots of money off of pirates (not only pirates, of course!). You are right that for companies with product range as wide as Sony's, there is sometimes internal conflict of interest because they can't maximize hardware and pre-recorded media sales at the same time.
I forgot my sig.
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| 18 FEB 2007 at 9:26pm |
| Deleted User | It's rather interesting when they market an mp3 player capable of storing 10000 songs or something like that to teenagers, don't you think? I mean, it's not as they'd believe those teenagers would afford to fill it legally.
By the way, here in Sweden they put a tax on all recordable media, such that a big part of the cost goes directly to the movie and record industry, to "compensate" for illegal downloads/copying. I find that rather hard to swallow (but don't have a choice unless I order from abroad) because I think it's double standards to have honest consumers pay for illegal activity of other consumers like that. It makes piracy seem even less immoral if you have already paid them for a fair share of pirated data's worth.
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| 18 FEB 2007 at 9:53pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (18 FEB 2007 9:26pm)
By the way, here in Sweden they put a tax on all recordable media, such that a big part of the cost goes directly to the movie and record industry, to "compensate" for illegal downloads/copying.
This scheme is in place in many countries.
I find that rather hard to swallow (but don't have a choice unless I order from abroad) because I think it's double standards to have honest consumers pay for illegal activity of other consumers like that. It makes piracy seem even less immoral if you have already paid them for a fair share of pirated data's worth.
I don't know about Sweden, but in most countries you have to pay a tax on recordable media, but this doesn't actually give you any legal right to record copyrighted works. Needless to say, the money goes to some useless jerks at some [s]mafia[/s]RIAA-style organization and the actual artists won't see a penny of it. RIAA and the like have somehow managed to get into the enviable situation where they are able to shamelessly exploit both their customers and their suppliers
I forgot my sig.
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| 18 FEB 2007 at 10:12pm |
KamisoriXSchattenjger
Posts : 1700
Joined: 15 MAY 2004
Status : Online | yep, michalalala is right. it's all about moneymaking out of the people. like the term pirated copy. it's made up by the music industry and is an oximoron. but heck, most people watching tv believe what they are told...nothing to be done :-*
[IMG]http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/971/kamisig94ct.gif[/IMG]&&&&If the Earth would be a Sphere, and not a Disc, I wouldn't be so afraid to fall of the Edge...
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| 19 FEB 2007 at 11:27am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By MichalN (18 FEB 2007 9:53pm)
Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (18 FEB 2007 9:26pm)
By the way, here in Sweden they put a tax on all recordable media, such that a big part of the cost goes directly to the movie and record industry, to "compensate" for illegal downloads/copying.
This scheme is in place in many countries.
Yes, but I'm not sure the tax is as big everywhere. Maybe this was an EU thing though. Still, this summer I noted that a pack of CD-R and DVD-R discs cost less than half in Germany than they do in Sweden, and when I was in Andorra, a country that sells electronics and related products very cheaply, they were even cheaper. I even played with the idea of buying a bunch of DVD's there to sell to friends for half the price at home, earning back what I paid for them plus what I paid for those I bought myself, but I didn't do it...
I don't know about Sweden, but in most countries you have to pay a tax on recordable media, but this doesn't actually give you any legal right to record copyrighted works. Needless to say, the money goes to some useless jerks at some [s]mafia[/s]RIAA-style organization and the actual artists won't see a penny of it. RIAA and the like have somehow managed to get into the enviable situation where they are able to shamelessly exploit both their customers and their suppliers
Well, of course it's still is illegal to record copyrighted works in Sweden as well, that's part of what makes this tax so strange. What's next? Should we stop handing out parking tickets to people who park incorrectly and add to the price of legal parking to compensate?
On the news today they reported that the Swedish national police academy invited people from the FBI and the Hollywood anti-piracy lobby last year to hold a speech about how to chase pirates. This has caused some controversy because many believe it is not in compliance with good practice in our law enforment to take instructions from special interest organizations. The headmaster has so far refused to comment. Earlier last year, when the police took down the (in)famous Swedish BitTorrent tracker The Pirate Bay, some evidence pointed to direct pressure from the movie industry on government officials. In other words, the term mafia doesn't seem so far from actually having some relevance.
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