| 30 JAN 2007 at 5:39pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | jalex, first of all let me say again that i would like not to have grades at all! that way, the focus point of a review would be exactly what it should be, ie the main text
now, a c for tunguska is, according to the ja grading system, "A good game, but has significant flaws", which is exactly what i consider tunguska to be... a higher grade (b) would have put tunguska to the "superior game" category, which it is not... a c is not a bad grade, it's an ok grade, and that is what i found tunguska to be... i have elaborated more about this here on the forums, but i don't remember which thread it was, so i can't point you to it! :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 30 JAN 2007 at 6:48pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I didn't see the other thread as I just found JA was back on and didn't do a search. Sorry 'bout that. I see LenG made some points in it. I think the review was a little biosed. You talked about flaws, now for me a flaw in not important unless it's a game stopping problem. Little things like voice acting are not important unless it's really bad or efects the the story. Weather a reviewer liked or disliked the game should definatly not show in the review.
I enjoyed this game a lot and I would hate to see anyone miss out on it because of a review. Sure there are some that might not like it but it's for them to decide on there own.
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| 30 JAN 2007 at 7:15pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jalex (30 JAN 2007 6:47pm)
I didn't see the other thread as I just found JA was back on and didn't do a search. Sorry 'bout that. I see LenG made some points in it. I think the review was a little biosed. You talked about flaws, now for me a flaw in not important unless it's a game stopping problem. Little things like voice acting are not important unless it's really bad or efects the the story. Weather a reviewer liked or disliked the game should definatly not show in the review.
I enjoyed this game a lot and I would hate to see anyone miss out on it because of a review. Sure there are some that might not like it but it's for them to decide on there own.
i think you have misunderstood what a review actually is... a review is a personal opinion of the reviewer (which is why you don't use phrases like "in my opinion" or "i believe" in a review - cause it's a given the whole thing is "in the reviewer's opinion"!)... a reviewer has to portray the feelings they got while playing the game as well as they liked or disliked it... and everything mentioned in a review is a personal opinion - gfx, sound, gameplay... everything (which is why there are ppl that agree and ppl that disagree with reviews!)
about the flaws, there are flaws that are game stopping, like you say, but there are flaws that are annoying or take away from overall enjoyment... a review cannot be either A+ or F... flaws affect the final grade... as for the speech, trust me, insignificant areas like speech, visuals etc make minimal to no difference to me and don't have significant impact on the final grade (but they have to be mentioned)... there were more major things that were wrong with the game, which are mentioned in the review
of course you could have enjoyed the game, just like you could have disliked an A+ game... but not many ppl have the financial ability to buy every game out there in order to decide on their own... and just like someone could have missed out because of the review, someone else could have wasted their money because of a favorable review (which is smth that happens a lot more often mind you)
so, in a nutshell, your best bet is to read plenty of reviews before deciding to buy a game... also, knowing the reviewer's likes and dislikes helps... if you hate myst-clones for example, you know that a reviewer that is a myst-clone fan would lead you to bad decisions and vice versa... and, above all, read the reviews, and don't stay on the grades!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 30 JAN 2007 at 10:43pm |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jalex (30 JAN 2007 6:47pm)
I think the review was a little biosed. You talked about flaws, now for me a flaw in not important unless it's a game stopping problem. Little things like voice acting are not important unless it's really bad or efects the the story. Weather a reviewer liked or disliked the game should definatly not show in the review.
I enjoyed this game a lot and I would hate to see anyone miss out on it because of a review. Sure there are some that might not like it but it's for them to decide on there own.
I disagree entirely. If you don't want an opinion in the review, why not just read the summary from the game's website? The whole point is to get someone else's perspective, to point out what the flaws are, and to let you decide from the opinion whether it is something you are interested in.
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 30 JAN 2007 at 11:06pm |
mclaugbIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 56
Joined: 10 DEC 2005
Status : Online | OK, since it's all about opinions, I'm with jalex:
Opinion 1: I thought Tunguska was a pretty classy traditional adventure that was professionally put together by people who obviously gave it a lot of TLC (apart from the voice-acting, obviously... )
Opinion 2: The financial argument doesn't really hold up in this case, as two of the main online retailers here in the UK are practically giving the title away now (6.99 GBP), even though it was already very fairly priced on initial release at the end of last September...
"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." L.P. Hartley
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| 30 JAN 2007 at 11:30pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | I agree with Jalex too.
I don't see Tunguska as having "significant flaws." It's not perfect and has some annoyances, but overall it was enjoyable to play and the interface was easy to use. The developers even found a way to eliminate pixel hunting.
BS4 did have signifcant flaws with the interface and wasn't exactly perfect in other areas (e.g. - mafia stereotypes and their voice acting). The plot wasn't significantly better than Tunguska's. And in BS4 it got really annoying to have to move George around, stopping and starting, one step at a time in some areas because if you clicked the mouse too far ahead of him he wouldn't move or would turn around and run the other direction. Using the keyboard to move him was even worse than in BS3. Yet BS4 got an A- and Tunguska got a C.
If JA+ were consistent with their grading, there wouldn't be such a difference in the grades.
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| 31 JAN 2007 at 2:22am |
BastichPrivate Detective
Posts : 622
Joined: 7 APR 2004
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (30 JAN 2007 11:30pm)
Yet BS4 got an A- and Tunguska got a C.
If JA+ were consistent with their grading, there wouldn't be such a difference in the grades.
They were reviewed by different people, hence there is no inconsistency to be found at all.
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| 31 JAN 2007 at 5:17am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Bastich (31 JAN 2007 2:22am)
Originally Posted By Jenny100 (30 JAN 2007 11:30pm)
Yet BS4 got an A- and Tunguska got a C.
If JA+ were consistent with their grading, there wouldn't be such a difference in the grades.
They were reviewed by different people, hence there is no inconsistency to be found at all.
Only if you think BS4 is two letter grades better than Tunguska.
Have you played both?
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| 31 JAN 2007 at 3:12pm |
BunnyFuFuSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 270
Joined: 11 FEB 2003
Status : Online | What he means is that different people have different opinions, so you can't compare those grades.
I agree that BS4 is terrible. However, I found Tunguska a mediocre game and thus agree with Aya's review.
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| 31 JAN 2007 at 4:02pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | 3 comments to all the above:
1. yes, it may be 6.99 gbp in two retailers in the uk, but it's $30 in every retailer in the usa, which is a significally bigger market! that makes it $10 more expensive than the highly superior scratches (for example)... of course, 7 gbp (aprx $13) is a reasonable price for this particular game, but a reviewer cannot be aware of market prices at each time... that is the buyer's part... the buyer is the judge on how much they're willing to spend on a certain title... a review or a grade will not change because a couple of retailers are selling a title at a bargain price!
2. comparing reviews by different reviewers is pointless and actually very misleading... ja may have some guidelines on what each grade should mean, but whether one game is "ok", "superb", "awful" is absolutely the individual reviewer's opinion, not ja's... so one may like more a game that was given a c by one reviewer than a game that was given an a by a different reviewer
3. no one is ever happy, it's a fact of life! while ppl have been constantly complaining how ja gives too high grades, now other ppl are complaining how grades are too low! so, here's a personal statement: i will not review games in a fanboy fashion! while i certainly disagree with ignorants like gamespot and believe they need to stop reviewing adventures altogether, that certainly doesn't drive me to throw A's around every time i point and click on my screen! : so, again, some ppl will agree, some will disagree... so, again, read plenty of reviews and try to know what each reviewer's style is so that you can make better decisions based on what you read
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 31 JAN 2007 at 8:04pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By BunnyFuFu (31 JAN 2007 3:12pm)
What he means is that different people have different opinions, so you can't compare those grades.
I know what he means. But if you can't compare the grades, why give the grades?
Originally Posted By Aya (31 JAN 2007 4:02pm)
3. no one is ever happy, it's a fact of life! while ppl have been constantly complaining how ja gives too high grades, now other ppl are complaining how grades are too low! so, here's a personal statement: i will not review games in a fanboy fashion! while i certainly disagree with ignorants like gamespot and believe they need to stop reviewing adventures altogether, that certainly doesn't drive me to throw A's around every time i point and click on my screen! :
I wouldn't want you to. I just wish JA had more consistency among the reviewers' grades.
so, again, some ppl will agree, some will disagree... so, again, read plenty of reviews and try to know what each reviewer's style is so that you can make better decisions based on what you read
When I first started playing adventure games, there were so many games I hadn't played and so many reviews to read before I spent my money... I didn't even look at reviews for games that received less than a B. So I missed some good ones early on. (Fortunately I've kept all my old computers and I have no problem getting the ones I missed to run.)
By now I've learned I may enjoy a game that received a D and dislike one that got an A, depending on the reviewers' likes and dislikes and what he or she considers a bad problem vs. a minor problem. The discrepancy in grades is more of a problem for newer players, and for players who never realize that there's no one person overseeing the reviews and that you can't compare the grades directly.
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| 31 JAN 2007 at 8:42pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (31 JAN 2007 8:03pm)
I know what he means. But if you can't compare the grades, why give the grades?
why indeed? : death to all grades everywhere, that's what i say!
I wouldn't want you to. I just wish JA had more consistency among the reviewers' grades.
as long as there's more than 1 reviewer on ja, i don't think this will ever happen!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2007 at 12:36am |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya (30 JAN 2007 7:14pm)
i think you have misunderstood what a review actually is... a review is a personal opinion of the reviewer (which is why you don't use phrases like "in my opinion" or "i believe" in a review - cause it's a given the whole thing is "in the reviewer's opinion"!)... a reviewer has to portray the feelings they got while playing the game as well as they liked or disliked it... and everything mentioned in a review is a personal opinion - gfx, sound, gameplay... everything (which is why there are ppl that agree and ppl that disagree with reviews!)
about the flaws, there are flaws that are game stopping, like you say, but there are flaws that are annoying or take away from overall enjoyment... a review cannot be either A+ or F... flaws affect the final grade... as for the speech, trust me, insignificant areas like speech, visuals etc make minimal to no difference to me and don't have significant impact on the final grade (but they have to be mentioned)... there were more major things that were wrong with the game, which are mentioned in the review
of course you could have enjoyed the game, just like you could have disliked an A+ game... but not many ppl have the financial ability to buy every game out there in order to decide on their own... and just like someone could have missed out because of the review, someone else could have wasted their money because of a favorable review (which is smth that happens a lot more often mind you)
so, in a nutshell, your best bet is to read plenty of reviews before deciding to buy a game... also, knowing the reviewer's likes and dislikes helps... if you hate myst-clones for example, you know that a reviewer that is a myst-clone fan would lead you to bad decisions and vice versa... and, above all, read the reviews, and don't stay on the grades!
Thanks for the info. I realize it's hard to write a review that is not biosed because your feelings about a game come through and probably should to a small degree. It shouldn't look like it's a "do not buy" because the reviewer didn't like it though.
I guess it was just the word "flaw" that got me.
When I played it there was only one game stopping flaw that could have been mentioned. It was one that required a patch but the patch fixed it very well.
Everything else was just great for me.
You are right about checking lot of reviews and I don't really go too closely on them anyway because there has been a lot of times a reviewer didn't like a game and found it quite enjoyable and like you said it has gone the other way as well too.
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| 1 FEB 2007 at 1:58am |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (31 JAN 2007 8:03pm)
When I first started playing adventure games, there were so many games I hadn't played and so many reviews to read before I spent my money... I didn't even look at reviews for games that received less than a B. So I missed some good ones early on. (Fortunately I've kept all my old computers and I have no problem getting the ones I missed to run.)
By now I've learned I may enjoy a game that received a D and dislike one that got an A, depending on the reviewers' likes and dislikes and what he or she considers a bad problem vs. a minor problem. The discrepancy in grades is more of a problem for newer players, and for players who never realize that there's no one person overseeing the reviews and that you can't compare the grades directly.
You kind of just proved Aya's point, though. There can't be a lot of consistency, because what one person considers to be a minor flaw can be a game-ruining flaw for someone else, and even perhaps a benefit for someone else.
I agree that the BS4 grade seems a little high, but that's why you need to read the reviews. He graded it that way because he wasn't as bothered by the controls that much, and was willing to overlook the abrupt ending. But he mentioned them, so it's up to you as the reader to determine how much those things will affect your gameplay experience.
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 1 FEB 2007 at 11:30am |
WimliGuild Master
Posts : 3259
Joined: 14 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jalex (1 FEB 2007 12:36am)
Thanks for the info. I realize it's hard to write a review that is not biosed because your feelings about a game come through and probably should to a small degree.
Not hard, 'impossible' is the correct word here. No one can be 100% objective when playing a game, watching a movie, reading a book, etc.
Originally Posted By jalex (1 FEB 2007 12:36am)
I guess it was just the word "flaw" that got me.
When I played it there was only one game stopping flaw that could have been mentioned. It was one that required a patch but the patch fixed it very well.
But then you're talking about bugs in a game, not flaws. Two completely different things. Bugs are technical issues in a game, therefore problems that will plague everyone who plays it (you can call it objective problems a game has). Flaws are subjective, different for everyone. Some flaws may bother some people so much they ruin the entire gaming experience while others will barely notice the flaw. As an example: some people have problems with the GK3 controls and gave up on the game because of that. On the other hand, I loved the interface in that game and think it ehanced gameplay and gaming experience. Now when someone reviews the game, I won't hold it against the reviewer when he mentions the controls as a flaw. I will disagree for sure, but I know that's it's only his gaming experience that's lead to that review, not an objective fact, or opinion of a majority of gamers. A reviewer has to report on his own, subjective gaming experience, he can't speak for everyone. Every review is a single, subjective opinion and should be read like that.
In the end, I don't mind some harsher adventure game reviews on JA. If every review of every game is ravingly enthousiastic, what's the point? I'm very picky as far as new adventure games is concerned as I've learned the hard way that I only like a fraction of the adventure releases of the last five years or so. Therefore, I look to reviews to learn about potential subjective weaknesses in a game, not for reviews that keep silent about that and only praise the good points of a game. So I really do hope that Aya keeps reviewing the way he does right now as he's not afraid to speak his mind when an adventure game sucks in his opinion. Right now, his reviews are the best to be found on the internet. 8-)
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| 2 FEB 2007 at 4:52pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | thanx wim! [smiley=blush.gif]
nice to read votes of confidence like that, esp when 3 years ago, when i started reviewing games, i thought "what the hell am i doing, i can't write worth of crap"! :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 2 FEB 2007 at 5:01pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya (2 FEB 2007 4:52pm)
thanx wim! [smiley=blush.gif] nice to read votes of confidence like that, esp when 3 years ago, when i started reviewing games, i thought "what the hell am i doing, i can't write worth of crap"! :
Hah! Your reviews of survival horrors are the best on the Net.
All your reviews are good (despite that I think you were a bit harsh on Tunguska). Maybe I enjoyed it so much because of the problems I've had with everything else I've played recently. Your review of (and grade for) Paradise was right on the money.
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| 2 FEB 2007 at 6:08pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | thanx jen! now i won't be back on the forum for a while, until that red hue goes away!
btw, if you like my reviews, then the first person you need to thank is Valerie, since she's the one that [s]pushed[/s] convinced me to do it!
and send an email to some of those mags that i've been trying to get to! :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 2 FEB 2007 at 6:26pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I agree Wimli
I am like you and I play a lot of the new games along with the old ones now and then. I have never tried to write a review and I would imagine if I did it would be biosed with things I like to see in a game that others may not. When I read aya's review I was thinking of the developers. If they read that review they might think they need to change a few things in there next one and I thought it was almost perfect the way it was. It is probably the wrong way to look at a review and I definaly didn't mean that I thought it wasn't a good review.
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