| 22 OCT 2002 at 10:58pm |
| Deleted User | There's one big problem that adventure games have to all other games: There has to be a new storyline in every new adventure. New plot, sometimes same characters, but new story, new advertures.
That said you've got 2 difficulties:
1. consumer point of view: the mass market don't want to be surprised, don't wont to get into something they don't know.
They want FFXII, Mario13, Quake16, Lara Croft 21; more of the same with only improvements in graphics en fastnesses(?). (OK, Lara is an exception, I never miss an episode)
2. Business point of view: Why try to find a compelling storyline, invest millions of dollars (Euro's/Yen) in a game, when you can earn more with a lot less investment by making the same old shit, only better en faster? Then put a big marketing budet on and Score! We don't want to take risks here, now do we?
I would do the same, I must admit.
So could be a solution to this problem?
A. Garage developers.
Like Dark Fall for instance. Those are the desperados where we are waiting for. Low budget, but big reviews.
Sometime such a game will be taken over by a big firm and put in the real big mass market.
B. Create a big community
When 'Just adventure' for instance can build a real big community, perhaps we can persuade the big companies to start making very nice adventures.
Some thoughts. Regards.
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| 22 OCT 2002 at 11:58pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I think the audience is definitely there (in spades), but the majority of the people in that audience don't know it yet.
There is still a stereotypical idea of computer games that they're for kids, or they're for computer geeks, or whatnot. A lot of adults won't go anywhere near a computer game unless it's recognisable outside of a computer, such as 'Cluedo' or 'Solitaire' or those pinball and mini-golf games - they simply believe computer games are 'not for them'.
And who is working to break down this stigma and show people that their are computer games to suit everyone? Gaming magazines? Nope. Gaming stores? Nope. Publishers? Nope (the advertising for the Sims is a notable exception, among a bunch of computer magazine adverts). Gaming programs on the telly? Nope (not in England, anyway - the few that existed had a strict 'action is cool' agenda, or were on at a ludicrous time in the morning). And let's not forget that the only time gaming appears on the news is when some tragic shooting occurs, which reinforces the idea in the uninformed general public mind that games are all mindless violence.
People enjoy stories. People enjoy puzzles (if the popularity of newspaper puzzle pages is anything to go by). If those people could only know that there are computer games out there that combine both of these things in a mature and entertaining way, and if those people could overcome the stigma that computer games are 'not for them', then the adventure gaming audience would experience a massive growth, surely?
But these people aren't being informed, and the stigma is maintained. The people in the best position to reach this audience are the publishers, who choose how and where to advertise their product, but they fail to show any desire to appeal to people outside of the established gaming audience. So... we're stuck, I guess. The target audience that adventure gaming needs is not the target audience the publishers are aiming for.
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 23 OCT 2002 at 9:14am |
ratracerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 41
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well, it's true that lack of information is a negative point for adventure games, nowadays. I lent Indy FOA and The Dig to my brother - he only knew of the games my nephew played (platform games and the rest of the Nintendo line...) ... He was hooked on immediately to the adventure genre... He didn't know there were computer games like adventures...
Note that my brother is nearly 50! I'm sure adventure games audience has a age-target totally different from any other kind... And at that age, most people don't waste their "pocket money" on games... Still, it's up to the marketing to see this, to go on advertising on other types of magazines, adult magazines (and I don't mean Playboy!)
Still - why is this topic on the Developer's Zone???
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| 23 OCT 2002 at 4:36pm |
JonasKyratzesSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 280
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Because I think it's something developers would like to talk about, right? I mean, we're the people who actually make these games, and so we should be interested in marketing them, and whether or not there's a target audience.
Anyway, I agree with what has been said: there are many potential adventure gamers that just don't know it yet, because they're not being targeted by the marketing departmens.
There is also a huge community, and games like TLJ prove that adventure games can still sell.
[i]
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 1:04pm |
PharosGamesIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 50
Joined: 18 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I'd like to think the garage-developers have a chance to make it.
It takes so long (at least it did for me!) to get your skills up there to where you have a chance to compete with commercial games.
I really love making games though. My last game was somewhere between an adventure game and an RPG, and kind of educational too.
What kind of game would you like to see? I'm thinking of going completely silly with the next game because I'm tired of doing serious stuff. I'm thinking talking cats and dogs, but they would have different personalities, and there would be a story to unravel like a true adventure game.
Do you all think there'd be interest in something like this? I just want to make enough money to keep going, and hopefully give people something they enjoy!!
Thanks everyone.
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 4:39pm |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Hmm... cats 'n' dogs... well, the movie worked, dunno why a game wouldn't
Kathy, your avatar frightens me.
*shudder*
.gita
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 5:04pm |
PharosGamesIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 50
Joined: 18 OCT 2002
Status : Online | heheh ... I know. That's my cat. She was attacking a feather at the time. However, I did edit the picture, adding extra fangs and made her eyes a weird yellow.
I've got to find something better. hhhmmm guess I could use my actual picture. Just seems so boring.
Actually, I'm not too sure at present if another game is in the horizon.
Kathy
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 9:07pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Jonas:
You're so right. The ages 12-24 do play adventures (at least I did) but there are so many older players. Also as the gamers are getting older, they still want to play adventures, but naturally with more mature content. Some developers seem to forget this.
The marketing problem is twofold: convincing developers that there is a market and convincing potential players that the games are for them. A possible approach to the latter could be games based on well known books (perhaps movies) that were aimed at this audience. Many people just have no idea that adventures exist and that they could've liked them.
I forgot my sig.
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 9:42pm |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By PharosGames (24 OCT 2002 5:04pm)
Actually, I'm not too sure at present if another game is in the horizon.
Kathy, what happened in the 4 hours between your initial post and your response to me? In the former you said you love making games and seemed really gung-ho about moving forward and sticking to that passion. In the latter, you're unsure about whether or not there will even be another game
Hope all's well....
.gita
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 9:48pm |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (24 OCT 2002 9:07pm)
You're so right. The ages 12-24 do play adventures (at least I did)...
Do you think that's still true, MichalN? I wonder sometimes. I started playing adventures when I was younger, as did many of my friends. It seems to me, however, that with every passing year, kids' attention spans shorten. They are bombarded with adrenaline rushes in TV, movies, and videogames (especially in the States.) I would guess that has something to do with the unbelievable success of the same old shooters, the same old action games, as well as the waning popularity of more cerebral pasttimes.
.gita
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 10:52pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Gita, I honestly don't know if it's still true. I have to admit that I have no contact with today's teenagers.
Even when I was one, I never was an average kid (for better or worse). And my classmates were nerds too - we were separated from "normal" kids to protect us from them and vice versa And it wasn't in the US anyway.
In other words, I cannot really extrapolate my personal experience in any sensible way. My friends and I played adventures but we were not exactly a representative sample. And I have no data on current situation (I wonder if anyone does).
Maybe you're right and the world is going to Hell in a handbasket (I can't say that it worries me though). But then again, people have been saying that forever. Of course it's always possible that we've already arrived and nobody noticed
I forgot my sig.
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 11:02pm |
Cindy_KIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 56
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Although I do believe there is a target audience for adventure games, I think that a big portion of the potential audience has not yet been reached. Somehow, we need to pull in those who love to read, watch movies, solve puzzles... not just existing gamers. This, of course, would push a move towards consoles because they require less technical expertise than gaming on the PC with device drivers, graphics cards, and the works.
I often think that perhaps the adventure game is simply too complex and requires too much concentration for the average American. If one considers the prime time TV line up and the list of best sellers, there sure is a lot of "mental junk food" out there...
So, perhaps shorter and easier adventures with a serious focus on plot and characters? What do you think of "dumbing down" to save the genre?
Just my two cents... not where my heart is, but something to consider!
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 11:15pm |
SCiVPrivate Detective
Posts : 671
Joined: 22 OCT 2002
Status : Online | A move towards consoles is a good thing to promote adventure games. BS:Shadow of the Templars was ported to the GameBoy Advance and looks pretty good.
And there really is no reason why it couldn't work, most interfaces will work just as well with the controls on the GBA.
Playing: World of Warcraft / Monkey Island SE&&Reading: Worldwar: Upsetting the Balance - Harry Turtledove&&Watching: Repo! The Genetic Opera
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| 24 OCT 2002 at 11:18pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Cindy_K: I'm not sure consoles are the solution. Consoles are viewed as kid's toys, and perhaps rightly so. I believe that many potential players already own a computer (PC or Mac). It should be a lot easier to convince them to buy a $30 game than a $30 game and a $200 console. Not relying on the latest and greatest technology could go a long way towards enabling games to run on older computers.
Now that I think about it, I wonder if it'd be possible to create a browser based Flash adventure. I suspect that Flash could work very well for some adventures and it is a technology that is very widely available.
I'm not an American and I'm sure there's tons of mental junk food, but just because the average Joe isn't up to par (which may be true or it may not) doesn't mean there aren't enough people who are. I guess some parallels could be drawn with the difference between typical Hollywood productions and independent movies.
Dumbing down is always a double edged sword. It may attract new customers but it can also alienate existing ones.
I forgot my sig.
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| 25 OCT 2002 at 4:41am |
PharosGamesIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 50
Joined: 18 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By justG (24 OCT 2002 9:42pm)
Kathy, what happened in the 4 hours between your initial post and your response to me? In the former you said you love making games and seemed really gung-ho about moving forward and sticking to that passion. In the latter, you're unsure about whether or not there will even be another game
Hope all's well....
.gita
Hi gita,
Thanks for your concern. I am fine. I was having a little bout of depression. It always seems to happen when I finish a game, and that's why I always have to start a new one. :
Sometimes I think, oh these games aren't so good. Why do I do this? How could one person ever compete with what the big companies produce?
Maybe by paying attention to what everybody has to say here, I can manage to make a very good game on a low budget.
Kathy
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| 25 OCT 2002 at 5:46am |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | You don't have to compete, you just have to make yourself happy. Surely the enthusiasm with which we await your next masterpiece can encourage you to do continue doing that?
.gita
p.s. Cats and Dogs? I'm so there
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| 25 OCT 2002 at 2:46pm |
PharosGamesIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 50
Joined: 18 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By justG (25 OCT 2002 5:46am)
You don't have to compete, you just have to make yourself happy. Surely the enthusiasm with which we await your next masterpiece can encourage you to do continue doing that?
p.s. Cats and Dogs? I'm so there
haha Thanks Gita,
Yes, I guess maybe I am thinking along the same lines as Cindy, as far as "dumbing down" the genre.
But my dogs and cats wouldn't be stupid characters. They would have personalities, worries and concerns, just like humans.
I do love making these games, but trying like all indie developers to find a way to stay alive financially while doing it. I think that's why I experimented with card games (I even wrote a complicated blackjack sim for my brother - though I don't even like gambling, so I'm not very proud of that), and tried the RPG elements in the latest game.
My first love has always been adventure games though. But from what they are saying in other forums, the simple puzzle games, and card games are what sell the best. And easier for independents to produce.
It just takes so much time and effort to produce the art, story, etc, and figure out how to make it all work together. But of course, it's the same thing for anyone writing a book, or producing an independent film. So again, I don't mean to complain...
You have to follow your heart!
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| 25 OCT 2002 at 4:44pm |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I hope to one day count myself among you, the indie developers, Kathy. So sssssshhhhh... you mustn't say things like that, I'll get discouraged!
(I'm teasing.)
.gita
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 4:57am |
PharosGamesIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 50
Joined: 18 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Not to worry, Gita. I am only depressed because my game is done. I think I need to start another one.
Don't tell anyone, but I really, really hate marketing. haha
Making games, now that's pure joy.
Take care.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 6:30am |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Well then I think you need someone to do the marketing for you, so that you don't have to deal with it and can concentrate on what you like doing!
.gita
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 7:56am |
JonasKyratzesSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 280
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | IMHO dumbing down games to make them more successful is like compromising your ideals to reach a certain goal. When you've reached your goal you've lost your reason for reaching it, because your ideals changed.
[i]
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 1:50pm |
PharosGamesIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 50
Joined: 18 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By justG (26 OCT 2002 6:30am)
Well then I think you need someone to do the marketing for you, so that you don't have to deal with it and can concentrate on what you like doing!
.gita
Maybe so. And that might be a possibility at some point. I was approached by an on-line publisher who was interested, but he wants a full version no bigger than 20 MB, with a demo less than 5 MB. To this point, he has only found small puzzle games make money, and he has done very well with these.
My game, when first completed, was over 250 MB. By reducing the images, MP3 music, and avi compression, I was able to get it down to around 80 MB.
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| 26 OCT 2002 at 2:10pm |
PharosGamesIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 50
Joined: 18 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By JonasKyratzes (26 OCT 2002 7:56am)
IMHO dumbing down games to make them more successful is like compromising your ideals to reach a certain goal. When you've reached your goal you've lost your reason for reaching it, because your ideals changed.
You have a point, Jonas. I was very into the Cherokee story. It was a strange experience that led me to make the game.
My husband and I were on our way to a software convention in St. Louis, when we stopped by the Trail of Tears State Park in Cape Girardeau.
Oddly enough, we were looking at our map, thinking we had taken a wrong turn, when we saw one of those roadside billboards that said, "Need direction? --God."
It was a very hot day (nearly 100 degrees), but we decided to walk a way back on a nature trail. We got pretty far into the trail when a sudden storm came up.
We became very disoriented. There was thunder, lightning, and a torrential downpour. The dirt path turned into a steep, slippery mudslide. It was COLD, and getting dark, as we walked along the Mississippi river. My feet slipped completely through my sandals, and I had to take them off. It was SCARY.
We finally made it out, but not without thinking how that long walk must have been for the Cherokee people, who weren't as well-fed and well-rested as we were. Many of them had no shoes, and it was through the late fall and winter months.
So, I thought... OK, maybe I am supposed to make this game. I picked up some books, and read about all the Cherokee legends and customs.
Well, I didn't mean to write a book... but I agree with you that inspiration is important. But you have to pay the bills too!
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| 9 NOV 2002 at 12:39pm |
JonasKyratzesSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 280
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I just wrote an article about this (target audiences), which can be found on my site (link is in the sig).
[i]
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