| 5 DEC 2006 at 8:42am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lurker01 (5 DEC 2006 7:28am)
If the US publishers insist on having CD versions of games then sooner or later it will start to cost them business.
Dude, it's market driven. Accept that as a fact. Somewhere in all of the market analysis that these companies are doing, it tells them that CDs are the preferred method of distribution based on sales. Until that changes, they will continue with CDs.
It's just like the whole downloadable games issue. It wasn't done because they thought it wouldn't work. Shareware was dead. Then out of the blue, casual downloadable games kick in and start reaping in the cash. Now the big companies are trying to get in on it. Mark my words, just like a small game company with some simple little card game (Wizards of the Coast) took over the collosal TSR - one of these portals is going to take over a major game publisher.
Everything is market driven. The market is the customers.
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| 5 DEC 2006 at 1:31pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (5 DEC 2006 8:41am)
Everything is market driven. The market is the customers.
Could you please show us the hordes of customers clamoring for popular goodies like StarForce? I think you will agree that copy protection is actually not something customers want. But then why do you say everything is market driven, when that isn't the case?
Bottom line - publishers will do whatever they think will make them most money. If that happens to be also what the customers want, great. If not, tough luck.
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 DEC 2006 at 4:39pm |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (5 DEC 2006 8:41am)
Originally Posted By Lurker01 (5 DEC 2006 7:28am)
If the US publishers insist on having CD versions of games then sooner or later it will start to cost them business.
Dude, it's market driven. Accept that as a fact. Somewhere in all of the market analysis that these companies are doing, it tells them that CDs are the preferred method of distribution based on sales. Until that changes, they will continue with CDs. I never said it wasn't market driven. I'm saying that that the reasons behind it have very little to do with the numbers of PC's with CD drives relative to the numbers with DVD drives.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 5 DEC 2006 at 8:36pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (5 DEC 2006 1:31pm)
Originally Posted By Ivinia (5 DEC 2006 8:41am)
Everything is market driven. The market is the customers.
Could you please show us the hordes of customers clamoring for popular goodies like StarForce? I think you will agree that copy protection is actually not something customers want. But then why do you say everything is market driven, when that isn't the case?
..and where is StarForce now? Customers started making it a point to avoid games that came with it. That forced the companies to drop it. The market 'spoke' the companies reacted.
Bottom line - publishers will do whatever they think will make them most money. If that happens to be also what the customers want, great. If not, tough luck.
It isn't going to make them money if the customers don't want it. Publishers are in a position where the products they sell are not something a person has to have. they have to convince the customer that their books, movies, music, games, etc. are worth buying. It's not like food or gas or clothes.
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| 12 DEC 2006 at 3:48am |
| Deleted User | (Replying to an older thread)
Originally Posted By Aya (22 NOV 2006 8:04pm)
i couldn't disagree more! technology shouldn't wait for ppl...
Technology shouldn't, and doesn't. But some business models also need to mind the lowest common denominator. Obviously, there's a lot of DVD distributed software out there, so I'm guessing that game makers realize that there's a significant sized enough market out there still running CD only.
Add to that (as already discussed) a) DVD players read CDs and b) most multi-CD games load to the HD and c) they probably know that you're going to buy the game anyways, peeved or not, then it's clear: they're making more money by not abandoning the CD only sector.
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| 12 DEC 2006 at 7:08am |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | If that's what's happening, then why aren't we seeing it elsewhere? You would have thought if that was sufficient reason then this would be observed in quite a few places. Either the US population has a unusually high percentage of PC's that have no DVD drives, and it would have to be pretty large to make it worth while, or else something else is going on that has very little to do with the lowest common denominator in technology.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 13 DEC 2006 at 2:29pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Not A Speck Of Cereal (12 DEC 2006 3:48am)
c) they probably know that you're going to buy the game anyways, peeved or not
i believe this sums it up perfectly... no one will refuse to buy a game just cause it came on x cds instead of 1 dvd... i wouldn't either (plus, i'm too busy boycotting drm games! )... so, as long as they get away with it, they'll never move on... i just wonder why don't european publishers do the same... maybe american publishers prefer to squeeze the last penny out of a product instead of embracing new technologies? :-/
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 13 DEC 2006 at 5:48pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Aya (13 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
Originally Posted By Not A Speck Of Cereal (12 DEC 2006 3:48am)
c) they probably know that you're going to buy the game anyways, peeved or not '
i believe this sums it up perfectly... no one will refuse to buy a game just cause it came on x cds instead of 1 dvd... i wouldn't either (plus, i'm too busy boycotting drm games! )... so, as long as they get away with it, they'll never move on... i just wonder why don't european publishers do the same... maybe american publishers prefer to squeeze the last penny out of a product instead of embracing new technologies? :-/
But that makes no sense at all because DVDs save the publisher production / manufacturing time and packaging material / shipping costs plus they save warehouse / shelf space for the retailers. The sellers would therefore be much better off distributing all their larger games on single DVDs than on multiple CDs and we can safely assume they know it.
So the resistance to change is in the marketplace where too many consumers either still don't have DVD units or for many who already do have the hardware, they are averse to buying games on DVD. The latter also makes little sense to me but it takes some people a long time to embrace new technology. The same thing happened with the transition from floppies to CDs.
The most sales-enhancing solution would be to offer both types of disc (CD and DVD) as well as optional direct downloads for as long as it takes for DVD technology and online distribution models to reach adequate market penetration / saturation. This would need to be done in conjunction with traditional retailers to accommodate their needs as much as possible and to coordinate marketing communications between both the publishers and resellers as well as the customers.
In situations like this where the market is in the process of changing from an old model to a new one (with yet another even newer method already in play), giving consumers several viable options may cost a bit more but it usually results in higher overall sales and better profits. Then, once the market has fully accepted / adopted the new model, the older option/s can be dropped.
Like I said earlier, this is a market-driven problem that has nothing to do with the seller's preference.
Cheers, Terry
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| 14 DEC 2006 at 2:12am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya (13 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
...no one will refuse to buy a game just cause it came on x cds instead of 1 dvd...i wouldn't either (plus, i'm too busy boycotting drm games!
Not to mention, ignoring your poor "Shift" key (...but we won't go into that...).
Uh, "RM"?
Meaning what? Digital Rights Management games?
If so, does this mean you're boycotting games which have copy protection?
Please explain.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 14 DEC 2006 at 2:28pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | yes, digital rights management... no, not any copy protection (although i hate them too)
i had talked about this in another thread, that's why i didn't elaborate... by drm i mean games that require internet verification and activation - a fairly recent fad... i will not buy or support ANY game that requires me to go to some site and activate or verify etc etc every time i want to play, or every time i install it on a computer (eg exchange student)... i will tolerate ONE TIME activation, with some key/activator that i dload and that i can use again and again for the rest of my life... but having to jump thru hoops every time i want to play, or try to play in 10 years only to find out the developer has become a monk in the himalayas? no thank you
and while the multiple cd thing is a nuisance, the drm thing is very serious and needs to be eradicated before it becomes a standard
BTW, Mark, here's a little Christmas present for you. Enjoy!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 DEC 2006 at 4:38pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
yes, digital rights management
...which has been politely described as a "Content Delivery System", but we all know that it's really*...(please follow the asterisk for my fractured train of thought)
Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
...no, not any copy protection (although i hate them too)
I really don't mind certain "benign" copy protection methods (installation disc must be in drive to play but will allow you to make a backup copy in case the original becomes damaged in some way; key code activation...um, can't think of any others right now, exactly), but I don't like the idea of, well, what you go on to say here...
Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
by drm i mean games that require internet verification and activation
...*what? A boon to the customer; the game player? An easy way to patch and organize games (provided one has internet access)? Or is it merely another form of copy protection - one that installs stuff on your hard drive, and then you "check in" (via the internet) with the Big Brother Game Holding Company?
Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
a fairly recent fad...
...which I think started with Half-Life 2, what - a couple of years ago now?
Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
i will not buy or support ANY game that requires me to go to some site and activate or verify etc etc every time i want to play, or every time i install it on a computer (eg exchange student)...
...and Half-Life 2, and the game that started as having absolutely no copy protection whatsoever but now is attainable via Steam (and that's what we're really talkin' about here, isn't it? Valve and Steam?) - the game Prey. Granted, these aren't really considered "pure" Adventure games, but still...
Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
i will tolerate ONE TIME activation, with some key/activator that i dload and that i can use again and again for the rest of my life... but having to jump thru hoops every time i want to play, or try to play in 10 years only to find out the developer has become a monk in the himalayas? no thank you
I hear you. And I also read the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action Usenet newsgroup for general gaming tips applicable to any genre (system advice, new product, etc.) and the group seems to be discussing, uh, arguing more and more about Steam than games.
Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
and while the multiple cd thing is a nuisance, the drm thing is very serious and needs to be eradicated before it becomes a standard
I tend to agree. I'm not paranoid about Valve putting malevolent placeholders on my hard drive as much am I concerned that I: 1) need to be online to start up a game 2) patch a game 3) or years from now, I want to play the game but can't because the DRM company is no longer.
I'm sure you're aware that several large game companies have joined the ranks of Steam recently: EA (neé Electronic Arts) is one of them. There are those that will say: "But I don't like any EA games." For now, then...you're safe.
Aya, I think you're right: it seems to be an unsettling trend in "blockbuster" games, and I'm very thankful we still have many Adventure games that we can still play over and over, through multiple computer hardware and OS upgrades.
I've diverted the topic long enough here and will finish by saying Terry tells it like it is: the buying public decides the medium and isn't it really odd that there are now even two more "options": Blu-Ray and Toshiba's HD DVD while, in America at least, multiple CD-ROMs are still the norm for games that really should be on a single DVD.
Originally Posted By Aya (14 DEC 2006 2:28pm)
BTW, Mark, here's a little Christmas present for you. Enjoy!
Thunk! [picks self off floor]. Thanks!
now u cn go bk 2 b n ur self aya
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 26 DEC 2006 at 3:06am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Well, I have to bring this one up about the mutliple CDs. While we've talked about the whole disc swapping and DVDs being more convenient - and yes I prefer DVDs - there was one thing missing.
I occasionally experience a bit of hell with installing games from multiple CDs. I pop in the first one, it does it's thing, then prompts for the disk 2. Put in disk 2 and Windows opens up the folder displaying the contents of the CD. I get slightly irritated, close it, then click on the ok button of the install program to let it know disk 2 is in there. It is not responding! Argh....
I've been through this enough times to know my best solution is to copy all of the CDs into a folder on my hard drive, then run the install from there instead of playing this hit-or-miss game of installing. Most recent game that causes me these fits? Tunguska.
This would have never happened had it come on DVD.
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| 27 DEC 2006 at 11:42pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Have fun with your 9 cds of Runaway 2!
Ok, probably not. I guess 6 cds might be the limit they are willing to go before they release it on dvd.
I heard the Dreamfall demo is out and it's 3+ GB!
That's 5 cds just for a frigging demo...
I only read the first page here and don't know what else has been said, but I think you are way off base, Aya...Bluray might not even make it. Most likely not in two years from now. I think the name is too long.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 29 JAN 2007 at 12:54pm |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I do expect game developers to take advantage of present-day hardware. So I'm not complaining when, for example, my old Radeon 550 video-card isn't sufficient for a modern game. The same holds for harddrive size, memory requirements, processing power and also storage devices. Unfortunately, I guess that game-makers decrease (visual) quality to make games compatible with older systems.
In console gaming, you know that your hardware will be sufficient for practically all titles that will be released. For gaming on a PC, some hardware upgrades will be necessary every now and then.
Usually, the storage medium does not influence the gaming experience after installing. Still, the bothersome CD-swapping during installs justifies, in my opinion, the release of games on DVD. This holds especially for adventuregames, often containing loads of high-quality visuals.
Small remark: Some DVD-games have improved gameplay compared to the CD-Rom-variants. Both the DVD editions of Riven and Schizm have nicer image quality, for example.
(By the way, hardware upgrades aren't that expensive for me since my playing of games lags the release of them by about two years.)
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| 21 FEB 2007 at 2:45pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | I've wanted DVDs to be standard since Baldur's Gate 1 came out on dvd... It is a laughably cheap to get a dvd drive... I have a dvd drive and a 2nd dvd recorder drive on my main 3 year old pc and a dvd drive on my laptop.
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 21 FEB 2007 at 11:47pm |
The WolfboySorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 304
Joined: 16 FEB 2006
Status : Online | Silly question guys, but how long do you think it's gonna be before all PC games are made purely (note the last word) for Windows Vista?
It's a rhetorical question, don't answer.
The answer is "quite a long time", and you can expect the same to be true for games being put onto DVDs. I fully anticipate that by 2010, the majority of games will be on DVD format. Y'see, even though the entire computer world moves pretty quickly, the consumer end doesn't. It wasn't that long ago since games were still released on floppy disks, remember.
As for why Europe simply has more games on DVD format.... Maybe we just rule
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| 22 FEB 2007 at 1:53am |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Here in the USA, a generally flat economy from the average worker's / consumer's perspective over a period of many years now, along with a sizeable, always present lag in consumer awareness and education on the latest technology plus the simple fact that most casual PC gamers don't even want to learn about high-tech mumbo jumbo all impact the length of time it takes for a new OS or a major new distribution / storage media format like DVD to fully penetrate the entire national market.
In the meantime, a publisher trying to sell mass-marketed PC games in this country right now would be crazy to demand that all American buyers upgrade to DVD immediately or stop purchasing their products altogether. Walmart, Target, K-Mart, Best Buy and a hundred other big retailers wouldn't be that stupid either.
So the total conversion from CDs to DVDs in America will happen when it happens - and that will be determined by the average consumer not anyone else.
Cheers, Terry
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| 22 FEB 2007 at 8:50am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Nonsense. A DVD-ROM drive these days costs less than an A class game title. A person buying video games by definition isn't exactly starving. What's more, a lot of these games require a PC worth $1,000 or more - a PC which already has a DVD-ROM drive. Because, let's face it, pure CD-ROM drives stopped being manufactured several years ago. Even laptops have DVD burners standard these days.
Terry's whole argument basically boils down to "us Merkins are stupid and we likes it that way!" I don't agree. Anyone can see the advantages of a DVD. Anyone except US game publishers that is.
I forgot my sig.
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| 22 FEB 2007 at 2:09pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (22 FEB 2007 8:49am)
Terry's whole argument basically boils down to "us Merkins are stupid and we likes it that way!" I don't agree. Anyone can see the advantages of a DVD. Anyone except US game publishers that is.
Michal, I don't think Terry is saying that ("Americans are stupid" at all but even if he is, then he still has a most valid and unbearably truthful point when he says that "the total conversion from CD-ROM to DVD will happen when it happens". It's like he is saying "Nothing happens until it happens." In that there can be no argument.
You lived here in the States. You know what a stranglehold big box stores like Wal-Mart, Target, etc., etc., ad nauseum have on the general buying public and mass consumerism. It's horrible, in my opinion. The quality and longevity of mass-produced goods have been terribly cheapened - and twenty years ago I thought a lot of the stuff we could buy was total cheap junk. In other words, I didn't think it could get any worse - twenty years ago! Until these megalithic stores no longer purchase en masse games containing CD-ROMs, then most publishers will never - in their right mind - issue games on DVD-only in the United States.
Of course, there have been exceptions. Myst IV, for one, and perhaps Schizm when it came out.
So, maybe you don't agree with Terry that most casual PC users don't want to have to "change anything" until it's forced upon them, but there is no denying that America is not going to become DVD-based for Adventure games medium...until "it" happens. This is indubitably true.
Otherwise, we here in the States will either have to order our DVD games from overseas, or just suffer CD-ROMs until the big box stores say "jump!"
P.S. So, how are you doing back in Europe? Okay? What are you eating?
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 22 FEB 2007 at 5:33pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By MichalN (22 FEB 2007 8:49am)
Nonsense. A DVD-ROM drive these days costs less than an A class game title. A person buying video games by definition isn't exactly starving. What's more, a lot of these games require a PC worth $1,000 or more - a PC which already has a DVD-ROM drive. Because, let's face it, pure CD-ROM drives stopped being manufactured several years ago. Even laptops have DVD burners standard these days.
Terry's whole argument basically boils down to "us Merkins are stupid and we likes it that way!" I don't agree. Anyone can see the advantages of a DVD. Anyone except US game publishers that is.
Not stupid Michal, just people who are generally very house poor with virtually zero job security, practically no confidence in the economy, no real interest in the latest, greatest high-tech advancements and who are perfectly happy with CDs for now.
The fact is that millions of American households with families and older occupants on small, fixed incomes can barely afford a single, low-to-mid-range PC. They simply can not pay for upgrades of any kind any more often than absolutely necessary, so they stick with a system pretty much "as is" for as long as possible. But occassionally they too like to play interactive games. Most prefer simple, casual entertainment and many use cheap video consoles and regular TV sets for gaming, not PCs.
Moreover, there is a huge number of poor kids / students in this country that download, burn and trade illegal software on CDs. They don't all have DVD burners and many don't even have a DVD reader yet. When their parents or grandparents buy them a bargain bin game at Walmart or Best Buy, they look for CDs not DVDs. When their older, low-end PCs finally do give out, then they will automatically get DVD units as standard equipment - not before. At that time, they will also get a new OS, a bigger hard drive, a faster CPU and more system RAM, which will allow them to play newer 3D titles that will no doubt be coming on DVD in the near future. In the meantime, like it or not, CDs are still the universal standard here in the USA.
Bottom-line is that the consumer market and the overall economy determine these things, not game publishers or hardware manufacturers.
Cheers, Terry
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