| 23 NOV 2006 at 6:25pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya (23 NOV 2006 4:31pm)
[...]Blu-Ray recorder[...]
You may be too young to remember the Betamax vs. VHS videotape conflict in the '80's, Aya, and needless to say, the VHS format "won".
A friend bought a beautiful Sony Betamax recorder/player for $1200, and hundreds of pre-recorded, factory-manufactured movies on Betamax tape. He was crushed when the VHS format became the industry standard for home use. Even the well-respected magazine Consumer Reports top-rated the Betamax format over VHS, and correctly so. The Beta format looked and sounded better than VHS.
I have a very strong feeling that the same thing is going to happen with HD vs. Blu-Ray. I think the Walt Disney Company is making a terrible mistake investing their efforts and money into the Blu-Ray format. Disney has already started advertising their enormous library of classic films on Blu-Ray discs.
Stocks will drop; heads will roll, and the HD format will become more prevalent. Granted, Blu-Ray is probably a superior format (I believe the discs themselves can hold more data than the HD format), but as P.T. Barnum once said (and I can't remember the exact quote): "Never overestimate the intelligence of the buying public."
I asked some vice-presidential-type folks at Blockbuster Video and Hollywood Video when they were going to start getting in HD and Blu-Ray discs for rental, and they both told me, in essence: "Whenever the buying public figures out which one they are going to use. But until then - neither one. Maybe never. DVD is just too popular for the average family rental now."
They also added: "We haven't the room to display any more formats. We have the three major gaming consoles discs for rent (PS2, XBox, Gamecube); we have DVDs coming out of our ears and new ones coming in all the time and we still have tons of videotapes. And yes, people still rent and purchase new pre-recorded movies on videotape, so we buy those to rent and to sell. We don't need any more formats - for a long time."
You want a Blu-Ray player? Buy a PlayStation 3. You want an HD player? Buy an XBox 360 (not the XBox 360 "Core" system, though) and buy the HD player add-on.
I certainly wouldn't invest in a recorder this soon - of either format.
However, the next television I'm going to get is one that will display in 1080p resolution, that's for sure. But plasma is still faulty, and the bugs and problems of large wide-screen TFT and LCD screens are still rampant.
The best bet for a large Home Theater system is a rear-projection type - one that will display 1080p (not 1080i).
That's my 2¢.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 6:49pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | The whole subject of why certain standards develop in the first place and are hard to displace/replace is a fascinatingly complex one. When I build a new computer even now, I still put in a 3.5 in. floppy drive- floppies are still used to update the BIOS on some motherboards (yes, I know that increasingly you can do it another way, but the standard still exists.).
I'm wondering whether the standard DVD is having trouble becoming a standard because of people's uncertainty over whether it's just a temporary phenomenon. They read about dual-layer DVD, HD Dvd, Blu-Ray Dvd and then occasionally formats in the formative stages that will potentially hold 20x the data of a Dvd and decide to wait to upgrade. Of course, that's faulty thinking because upgrading to a Dvd reader/burner is pretty easy and the Dvd is going to be around for several years in its current format anyway...but, they don't see that.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 7:04pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mark (23 NOV 2006 6:24pm)
Originally Posted By Aya (23 NOV 2006 4:31pm)
[...]Blu-Ray recorder[...]
You may be too young to remember the Betamax vs. VHS videotape conflict in the '80's, Aya, and needless to say, the VHS format "won".
A friend bought a beautiful Sony Betamax recorder/player for $1200, and hundreds of pre-recorded, factory-manufactured movies on Betamax tape. He was crushed when the VHS format became the industry standard for home use. Even the well-respected magazine Consumer Reports top-rated the Betamax format over VHS, and correctly so. The Beta format looked and sounded better than VHS.
I remember that era like it was yesterday. How many people remember the Sanyo V-Cord? Well, it was a great format and was the first VCR I ever bought because it was the first one to have 2 hours on one tape (which was very much like an 8-track tape in size). Sony is pretty wierd when it comes to its formats- I've never understood why. The first BetaMax allowed only one hour on a tape- okay, fine it's the first commercial VCR ever. But Sony has to know that the standard movie is 90-100 min. and the average TV movie is 2 hours. What does it do next? It comes out with a 90 minute tape! And there's the V-Cord with 2hours side-by-side with the BetaMax (this was before VHS came out). Which am I going to pick? So here was Sony first on the market with the best technology, the better picture, and they end up losing out to a lesser-quality format simply because it offered 2 hours- to, of course, the VHS format which took advantage of the time constraints of the BetaMax. It didn't stop there. Next VHS was offered in a LP (long-play) format of 4 hours- 2 TV movies on one tape! Sony's response? A 3.5 hour format. What?
However, the next television I'm going to get is one that will display in 1080p resolution, that's for sure. But plasma is still faulty, and the bugs and problems of large wide-screen TFT and LCD screens are still rampant.
The best bet for a large Home Theater system is a rear-projection type - one that will display 1080p (not 1080i).
That's my 2¢.
Speaking of Consumer Reports- they've had 2 fairly big reviews of LCD & Plasmas in the last few months and they seem to think that either are pretty reliable even to the point of saying that if you have the $$$ and want the best, go for a 1080p plasma screen. I was sort-of surprised because CR is usual fairly conservative on those things. I'm actually quite happy with my ED/480p plasma screen. If I were to upgrade, I'd probably settle for the cheaper 720p screen simply because there aren't that many broadcasts in true 1080 and I don't think I could tell the difference that much anyway.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 8:16pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | mark, i remember the beta/vhs era... i was a kid back then, and my stepfather used to have a beta, which was the only vcr i had at the time, and i was going around the neighbourhood looking for video rental stores that supported beta, but they were all telling me they're vhs only... such disappointment, but such joy when we got our first vhs later!
and i wouldn't buy a bluray recorder right now, no way! first of all, they're ridiculously expensive, and there's hardly anything on them yet... but there are movies starting to be released on bluray... if you check out netflix, they bring new movies on bluray too, and you can also set up your account to pick bluray over dvd when you search for movies! personally, i don't care if it's bluray or hd-dvd - whichever becomes the standard, that's what i'll get... all i want is disks with dozens of gb! 8-)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 1:27am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | By the way, here's some of the acronyms we're throwing around fleshed out:
ED = Enhanced Definition
HD DVD = High Definition Digital Versatile Disc
HDTV = High Definition Television
480, 720, 1080i = Interlaced
480, 720, or 1080p = Progressive (Scan) (Better picture quality than interlaced)
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 2:40am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Is this truly an American thing or a North American thing? I would imagine based on Agustin's post that we are talking North America, not just the U.S. here.
As Agustin pointed out, the companies want to maximize their sales, so they have no need to push a slightly less less used format over one that losses some customers.
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 3:38am |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | All I know is before I had a computer with a DVD drive I did hate the DVD format, with more games being released only on DVD I thought it was unfair. But I bought a system this year with a DVD drive, and it's amazing how quickly my opinions changed. My reaction when shopping for games became, "Neverwinter Nights with all the expansions fits on one DVD? Cool! I want all games to be that convenient!" Now I grumble when I buy a game that only ships on multiple CD's. :
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 4:17am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Andromus (24 NOV 2006 3:38am)
Now I grumble when I buy a game that only ships on multiple CD's.
Probably the most exercise some Americans ever get is disc-swapping.
That's why I want all games released in North America to be on DVDs. :
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 4:49am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | My father always bought the latest newest toys. He was the first person he knew to have a phone in the house, I was the first girl in class to have a colour TV in the house, then a video recorder and then a VHS video camera - it was the size of large dog with a battery like a house brick. He also bought a Sinclair - the first British personal computer, although back then, we did wonder what to do with it.
So, newly arrived in this country my father came up with a brilliant plan - let's open a shop where other people who own video recorders can swap/sell/buy their taped TV shows to other video recorder owners. Would there be enough interest do you think? o enough people own a VCR to make this happen?
He was laughed at by all the electronic shop owners who couldn't possibly envisage a market where people would one day rent proper movies to view at home. 26 years ago, that simply wasn't going to happen.
And yes, I know Dad's idea was off the mark a bit and had legal issues attached, but he was ahead of the market by a few years.
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 5:56pm |
| Deleted User | I actually haven't seen CD ROM only drives on sale for a long time here...
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 7:28pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Aya (22 NOV 2006 8:04pm)
Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (22 NOV 2006 7:53pm)
.
Until virtually every potential user's PC has a DVD drive, game publishers should continue to support both the CD and DVD formats. It's simply catering to the total needs of the current market and has nothing to do with what gamecos or retailers would prefer to do.
Cheers, Terry
i couldn't disagree more! technology shouldn't wait for ppl... there are ppl that would never move on unless there's nothing left for them to do... now i'm not saying directx10 cards are out right now, all games should require them within 6 months... but clinging on to a decade old technology crosses the line big time
it actually reminds me a lot of commodore's downfall! amiga 1200 was there, pretty capable of competing with the pc technology at the time, and developers kept making games for the a500 cause "some ppl still have them"!!! can you imagine the same thing happening on the pcs at the time? when would it have been that the last person moved from ega to vga? we might still be playing ega games right now! :
Your view of what drives the overall PC hardware market and what its current state is seems far too limited - as millions of people around the world still do not have DVD drives and there simply is not a universal standard yet for the DVD format itself. You have also overlooked the fact that there are still millions of potential PC game consumers that publishers need to appeal to and accommodate during the transition from what is a true universal CD format to the newer, still developing DVD standard. In the meantime, they need to offer both options to all customers if they want to to maximize potential sales. Offering one or the other eliminates potential sales - which is just plain bad business.
Cheers, Terry
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 7:45pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Ogre (24 NOV 2006 5:55pm)
I actually haven't seen CD ROM only drives on sale for a long time here...
Which means we are finally nearing the point when it will be safe for most if not all game publishers to drop the CD format altogether and go with DVD exclusively.
However, the worldwide consumer market still isn't quite there yet and the "universal" DVD format is still unsettled. So for the time being, both CD and DVD formats are needed in order to reach 100% of the potential buyers in today's marketplace. This may be a bit of a hassle and less efficient economically for publishers and retailers but it is necessary during the current transitional period between the older and newer technologies.
After all, the lives of 99% of all potential game consumers do not and will never revolve around staying current with all the latest PC hardware. So there will always be a lag between the introduction of new a format and the point when it is accepted as a universal standard. Right now we are in one of those periods when two major media storage standards co-exist and smart publishers / retailers realize it.
Cheers, Terry
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 8:14pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Andromus (24 NOV 2006 3:38am)
All I know is before I had a computer with a DVD drive I did hate the DVD format, with more games being released only on DVD I thought it was unfair. But I bought a system this year with a DVD drive, and it's amazing how quickly my opinions changed. My reaction when shopping for games became, "Neverwinter Nights with all the expansions fits on one DVD? Cool! I want all games to be that convenient!" Now I grumble when I buy a game that only ships on multiple CD's. :
You summed up my feelings perfectly. I never saw the need, but once I finally gave in - after mistakenly buying a game that came on a DVD and couldn't return it - I wish all games came like and wish I hadn't have taken to long to make the switch.
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 8:28pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | terry, i don't understand what you mean by "universal"... if you're talking about zones, then you are making the mistake that mr lipid suggested lots of ppl make... this has nothing to do with the dvd as a storage medium, which is the point of this thread... the dvd as a storage medium is universal, follows the same standards everywhere around the world, and any dvd you buy from any country will play on any pc on any other country (again, talking about storage, not movies)... the dvd is not a media under development, it has been developed and has reached its peak, and is getting close to saying bye-bye... the dvd is not new technology... it's old technology, just newer than the cd... european publishers have fully embraced it, and i'm sure that there are euro consumers who still are cd-rom only, just like there are consumers who still own a pii or 3dfx... at the stage that the dvd is at, ie a fully grown and ridiculously cheap technology, there is no excuse whatsoever for publishers to keep using cds, unless they manage to give both in one box (which would be more costly)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 24 NOV 2006 at 10:46pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Aya (24 NOV 2006 8:27pm)
terry, i don't understand what you mean by "universal"... if you're talking about zones, then you are making the mistake that mr lipid suggested lots of ppl make... this has nothing to do with the dvd as a storage medium, which is the point of this thread... the dvd as a storage medium is universal, follows the same standards everywhere around the world, and any dvd you buy from any country will play on any pc on any other country (again, talking about storage, not movies)... the dvd is not a media under development, it has been developed and has reached its peak, and is getting close to saying bye-bye... the dvd is not new technology... it's old technology, just newer than the cd... european publishers have fully embraced it, and i'm sure that there are euro consumers who still are cd-rom only, just like there are consumers who still own a pii or 3dfx... at the stage that the dvd is at, ie a fully grown and ridiculously cheap technology, there is no excuse whatsoever for publishers to keep using cds, unless they manage to give both in one box (which would be more costly)
Sorry if I sounded argumentative Aya and I do realize the difference. But one can't completely separate technological standards like the (newer) DVD format from consumer perceptions and actual consumer system specifications. As long as a significant number of average people still lack DVD capabilities in their PCs and insist in clinging to the older CD format, it remains a viable secondary means of distributing games on disk.
All I was saying is that as long as this situation exists, game publishers and retailers would be wise to keep taking advantage of the opportunity to sell more interactive software. It is not their sole responsibility to force major changes in basic hardware formats onto the general consuming public and they really aren't influencial enough to do so even if they wanted to. The rest of the software world must also help lead the way from the CD to DVD standard - at least enough to render the older format essentially obsolete for the majority of all remaining consumers who are still lagging behind. They (the marginal buyers) need several reasons to upgrade and many simply can't afford to spend the money sooner than absolutely necessary. So they hold-off as long as possible and that's what we are seeing right now.
Of course, since virtually all new PCs sold today (including the cheapest off-the-rack models) come with a combo CD/DVD drive as a standard component and that trend has been in place for a couple of years now, simple attrition of older systems will soon make DVD access close to universal. When that becomes a reality, then game sellers can comfortably afford to drop CDs completely. In the meantime many continue to offer software on CDs as well as DVDs, which IMO is just smart business.
Cheers, Terry
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| 25 NOV 2006 at 9:12am |
RevliskciPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 9 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I think impetus for a change will come more from business software than game makers.
CD ROMs were available from 1990, but was it didn't really get popular until after 1995. This was when Microsoft released Windows 95 on CDs , and their Office and Works programs which were too big to fit on floppies (I remember seeing Office 95 on 35 floppies, so those people complaining about 6 CDs can just get in line!)
When people and managers who decided business purchases saw the ease of use and applicability of CDs, that was when CDs became a standard feature of compters and an expected compnent.
Microsoft could do the same for DVD. XP used 3 CDs and goodness knows how Vista will take up, but having it on DVD will make installation simple and easy. And once they do that, the rest will follow.
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| 25 NOV 2006 at 11:37am |
KarstenSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 347
Joined: 23 SEP 2006
Location: DK
Status : Offline | HI
First, I want to mention a personal experience.
Way back in the ace-age -- (which means 1998 or 1999), I bought Baldur's Gate, a very good game .
I played it a lot, but hated the disk swapping. Then in 2003 or 2004, I think, Baldur's Gate did come out on a single DVD. Yeah, I thought, so I bought it. And gone were the days of diskswapping.
I have also rebought BS1 and BS2 + TLJ on DVD, simply because I like the DVD-case, and I can play the DVD versions of these games on XP as well.
Second, I would like to mention that my father also was a tech nerd og geek. He should always also have the latest techno geek thing. All the family laughed at him, until one day his vision were clear to them. In the area where we lived when I was a kid, he was the one who saw that we got cable. Simply because he saw the need way back in the 1970's for people being exposed to different cultures and their need to learn from these cultures as well. [On a side note this landed my big brother a job with a German firm, simply because he had so much German TV that he was able to speak German fluently].
Anyhow, my Dad did also buy a betamax video, in 1982. (I think). In 1984 or so, he did get a VHS videoplayer, since this was the format which had won the betamax-vhs war. The point is that he, like many other believed that Betamax was the better format, both in sound and picture. [Some say that the part of the reason why VHS won was that certain people would like to see their [censored] film on VHS format. And that Betamax, in the early years, in the 1970's, only could used to tape tv-shows from the TV, so that people were able to watch at their convience, at a later data].
Third, I would like to mention that he also bought a Sega console. (sadly now, Sega consoles are long gone, while Playstation & Xbox now dominates the market). His grandchildren were very happy about this as was I --- since it does mean that I, as a teacher, can connect to my students, talking about computer games. And finding articles about computer games in order for them to discuss.
Fourth, about the HDDVD and Blueray format war, I will say this:
My take and best bet on the outcome is this:
HDDVD becomes dominant in computers since Microsoft supports this format and maybe on all other TV's than Sonys. (and of course in 360's and further down the line of MS' consoles).
Bluray becomes dominant on TVs (since Sony supports his format) and maybe on Sony TVs, and
of course the Playstation 3 and further Playstation as well.
Fifth, most games are now released on DVD-formats, at least in Europe. In my EB game shop, months will pass before I see a new game released on CD. And if it a new game, it is usually some older games
they have on sale to clear their storage.
Sixth, I do believe that Revlisckihas a valid point. The DVD-technology for computers did come around about 3-5 years ago. And MS could be doing this technology a real favor by releasing Vista on
one DVD. (and shipping new computers with DVD formats of Vista).
Karsten
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| 26 NOV 2006 at 4:52pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Karsten (25 NOV 2006 11:37am)
Sixth, I do believe that Revlisckihas a valid point. The DVD-technology for computers did come around about 3-5 years ago.
DVD technology (as in Digital Video Disc, not data storage) is over 10 years old (circa 1994). I have an old PC from 2000 which was no monster machine and it came with a DVD drive built in. That's six years ago. The game Tex Murphy - Overseer was a DVD technology showcase, released at a time when a DVD-ROM was far from common but already available. This was early 1998.
I can understand CDs for application software, but for new games which require a modern PC anyway, CDs are stupid.
And MS could be doing this technology a real favor by releasing Vista on
one DVD. (and shipping new computers with DVD formats of Vista).
I can't see how a PC with no DVD drive could be helped by stuffing Vista on it, given its hardware requirements. To me, releasing Vista on CDs makes no sense at all. (Not that I care about Vista in the least - writing this on a MacBook Pro, thank you.)
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 DEC 2006 at 7:40am |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (22 NOV 2006 10:44pm)
The American public has been sold on the idea that DVDs contain movies or television shows.
DVD = Movies or TV shows
CD = Music or Games
The DVD is not seen as a data storage medium. I think this would be the reason more than anything else. Even if many people do only have PC's with CD drives, the higher cost of producing games on numerous CD's means that it doesn't make economic sense. The other issues occur pretty much everywhere, so if any of them were the cause you would see this elsewhere as well.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 2 DEC 2006 at 11:35pm |
Gameman007Space Cadet
Posts : 145
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | What's the big deal with having the games on CD format anyway? The games fully install on the HD and only one disk is required to be in the drive. It's not as if it was like the old days of disk swapping. With the DVD version you still have to have the 1 dvd disk in the drive in most cases. So what's the fuss?
Would the oceans be deeper if there weren't any sponges?&&If the world didn't suck would we all fall off&&&&Currently playing Secret files:Tunguska, Paradise, The DaVinci Code and Dreamfall
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| 3 DEC 2006 at 7:20am |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | For one thing, it means that companies have to produce two versions of games - one of which has higher unit costs than the other, and is sold to a much smaller audience. As games get larger, this will be increasingly true and what will start happening is companies will think that it doesn't actually make sense to sell their games in the US.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 4 DEC 2006 at 11:00pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Gameman007 (2 DEC 2006 11:34pm)
What's the big deal with having the games on CD format anyway? The games fully install on the HD and only one disk is required to be in the drive. It's not as if it was like the old days of disk swapping. With the DVD version you still have to have the 1 dvd disk in the drive in most cases. So what's the fuss?
Ummm... Yeah.
The other thing is that some people have one DVD drive and one CDRW drive. And if the copy protection doesn't like the DVD drive, you've still got the CDRW drive to try it in. You can't do that if the game is on DVD.
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| 4 DEC 2006 at 11:05pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | the big deal is not being able to do anything else while the game is installing, but instead having to stay put until all 3, 4, 5, 6 disks have been swapped... and it may not have been a big deal, if there was no alternative, but there is... it's like saying what's the big deal if you have to install a game out of 40 floppies, if the game plays from the hard drive!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 5 DEC 2006 at 2:28am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lurker01 (3 DEC 2006 7:20am)
As games get larger, this will be increasingly true and what will start happening is companies will think that it doesn't actually make sense to sell their games in the US.
Not true. There is nothing saying you can't sell your DVD version in the US. It happens quite often. This is not a case of "to sell in the US, you have to put it on a CD", it's a case of trying to cater to the largest denominator.
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