| 22 NOV 2006 at 4:16pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Our NA publisher also expressed concerns about distributing games in DVD format. It simply looks like it isn't as widespread as many would think in PC. I believe it makes sense - and especially in the adventure realm - there are still some very dated computers out there!
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 4:28pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | i'm sure there are dated computers everywhere... but dated or not, as long as it has an ide (and this goes back to almost a decade ago), a basic, $10-15 dvd drive could easily replace the existing cdrom... so there's no excuse... again, i could undestand it a couple of years ago (dvd drives have been around long before that), but not anymore
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 5:05pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Sure, there are almost no excuses for not having a DVD drive nowadays. But keep this in mind: not everyone has the knowledge, or is even willing, to update their computers. Laziness? Perhaps. In the meantime, no company is going to risk sales by only supporting DVD (except in very high-end games such as Oblivion) - after all, the entire game ends in your harddrive anyway
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 5:19pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | granted, multi-cd games at least install entirely on the hd, and there is no tex murphy disk swapping anymore! but think about it, how many ppl who are stuck with cdroms are also stuck with 10-20 gb hds? nothing stopped full installations to catch on (dreamfall takes up 6gb), and replacing hds is a lot "harder" that replacing dvd drives... and just like americans, there are plenty of europeans that have old systems? this doesn't stop euro publishers to only use dvds now... if you want to play a game, you will install a dvd rom... whether you do it yourself, call a friend or hire someone, you will do it... can you imagine kq5 and myst being released on floppies? no one would even have a cdrom now... but they were released on cd, and if you wanted to play you installed a cdrom, that's that... if you keep tieing a kid's shoes, they will never do it on their own... same if you keep pampering old systems, no one will ever switch to new ones (the word "new" used very lightly here, since we're talking about a 10 year old technology! :)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 7:04pm |
| Deleted User | Yeah I often wondered about that subject myself. But the worst is when an american publisher releases a game on several CD ROM's today instead of the DVD that is common here. Serious installing World of Warcraft which comes on 5 CDROMs is a pain in the ass and lasts almost an hour (and after that you have to download a few hundred MB patches...)
Honestly, my PC from six years ago had a DVD drive already!
And don't say some people want to play a game on an old computer, a game that nowadays is released and needs more then 2 CD's will NOT run on that old computer, whether it is an adventure or from another genre. You need the graphics card, the RAM and the HDD space.
Let me take WoW as example again, it was supposedly made to run on old computers (outdated graphics when it came out, delivered on CD instead DVD). The point is, theoretically you could install it on a 1 GHz (or even less) machine and any kind of GeForce or Radeon graphics card no matter how dated, it will run. But the moment you come online you really can't do much because with less then 1GB RAM the whole system slows down completely (I tried to play with 769MB RAM and it is a pain in the ass, for example you practically can't leave the airship when travelling since the load screen simply only vanishes after the ship is already travelling again). Same PC with 1GB RAM - no problem whatsoever.
No there is no need not to release a game not on DVD, who still don't have a DVD drive usually don't play anyways. In other words those compnaies are simple stupid!
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 7:53pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Until virtually every potential user's PC has a DVD drive, game publishers should continue to support both the CD and DVD formats. It's simply catering to the total needs of the current market and has nothing to do with what gamecos or retailers would prefer to do.
Cheers, Terry
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 8:04pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (22 NOV 2006 7:53pm)
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Until virtually every potential user's PC has a DVD drive, game publishers should continue to support both the CD and DVD formats. It's simply catering to the total needs of the current market and has nothing to do with what gamecos or retailers would prefer to do.
Cheers, Terry
i couldn't disagree more! technology shouldn't wait for ppl... there are ppl that would never move on unless there's nothing left for them to do... now i'm not saying directx10 cards are out right now, all games should require them within 6 months... but clinging on to a decade old technology crosses the line big time
it actually reminds me a lot of commodore's downfall! amiga 1200 was there, pretty capable of competing with the pc technology at the time, and developers kept making games for the a500 cause "some ppl still have them"!!! can you imagine the same thing happening on the pcs at the time? when would it have been that the last person moved from ega to vga? we might still be playing ega games right now! :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 8:08pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Speaking of this Topic (in essence: how come North American games are still using CDs rather than Europe's choice of DVDs for PC game media), can anyone remember where we were discussing this before?
I think it was interlaced with a STEAM Topic, or something. Can't remember where it went...
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 8:47pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (22 NOV 2006 7:53pm)
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Until virtually every potential user's PC has a DVD drive
That's the point! Every potential user's PC does have a DVD drive...
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 9:49pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ogre (22 NOV 2006 8:47pm)
That's the point! Every potential user's PC does have a DVD drive...
The operative word here is "potential". They might get a PC - they might not.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 10:39pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Here's something for you to chew on: Barrow Hill was independently released in DVD early this year. Now, a self-distributed independent game typically can sell 1000-1500 copies (this can vary wildly from game to game, but bear with me). Barrow Hill was a very successful title, so let's suppose the developer sold on its own 2000 units. Several people at Gameboomers claimed that they could not play the game when it was released precisely because it was only available in DVD. I counted about 10. Lets say those ten people represent about 100 people at Gameboomers, since their members database is huge. Sounds like a good bet. So we can assume that 100 potential buyers did not acquire the title because of the DVD format. That's about a 5% out of total sales.
Bear in mind that I'm totally making up these numbers (I have no idea how Barrow Hill performed in reality), but 5% sounds like a fairly reasonable figure to extrapolate in a larger market.
I mean, let's just consider this for a moment: you could be missing 5% in sales if doing DVD only. That is a LOT. So believe me, these companies are not stupid and know very well what they are doing.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 10:44pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | The American public has been sold on the idea that DVDs contain movies or television shows.
DVD = Movies or TV shows
CD = Music or Games
The DVD is not seen as a data storage medium.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 11:10pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | @agustin: i belive that your percentage is wrong, mainly cause your sample is too small... if you ran a poll over all adventure sites and everyone takes the time to answer, i believe the percentage would be smaller... but you're missing my point here... if ALL adventure games came out on dvd (and they should), then at least 8 out of those 10 ppl on gameboomers would be upgrading... if one says "ok, i won't get barrow hill, i'll get smth else", they'll never move on... if one says "crap, i can't get anything without a dvd rom" then high chances are they will upgrade... the only games that should be released on cd nowadays are the ones that are smaller than 700mb... and even those should be on dvd, and include some nice extras - eg scratches could be on dvd with some nice interviews, behind the scenes etc!
@mr lipid: perhaps you're right, but this is an entirely wrong notion and has to change... to bring back smth i said in the first post: can you imagine ppl thinking blurays are for movies only and games still being released on cds! 10-20 cd games!!!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 22 NOV 2006 at 11:30pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | The sample may be small, but a 5% sounds like a fairly reasonable possibility. Still, even if it was a 3% - for a game that sells 100.000 units, that would be about 3000 units. A potential $30.000-60.000 in revenues! And with the example you're giving me, we would be somewhat expected to take more advantage of that space, and therefore produce more materials / spending money
In any case, it doesn't work that way - people don't like to be forced into doing upgrades (Microsoft anyone?). I don't think that's the solution - it's probably better to wait until the market points that DVD is the way to go. It's not such a serious issue anyway...
PS: Don't get your hopes up for Bluray - I think it's going to take a lot more than two years to become the standard... IF it does. Pushing formats is an incredibly hard thing to do. This is precisely why DVDs still haven't catch up with PCs yet. Can you imagine, say, Ogg winning ground over MP3? Even when it IS a far better and convenient format? I thought so...
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 12:13am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | until the market points the dvd is the way to go? and what do all the dvd games released in europe point to? just cause american publishers take dvds and turn them to cds doesn't mean the dvd is not the way to... it actually is almost not the way to go anymore with the blurays coming up... and mark my words, they will be everywhere before you know it... there's already "bluray-roms" and recorders out there... as usual at very high prices at the moment, but you know how prices drop when it comes to those things
as for forcing upgrades, again, i do not believe stopping the support of a 20 year old technology for a 10 year old one is "forcing"!!! forcing would be my example with the directx10 cards, if all games suddenly wouldn't play without them in a couple of months... that would be an extreme, but the cd issue is another extreme too, and it happens only cause publishers pamper the very few cd owners that are left... let alone that a $15 upgrade can hardly qualify as "forcing"!!!
oh, and about behind the scenes extras etc, that would only be for games that are cd size!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 12:34am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | I see your point Aya, but it would take all of the publishers here in the US to do it, or at least all the big ones. As long as people can still get games on CDs, they won't see the need to upgrade to a DVD drive. Yes, it is very cheap to get one. I see no reason for people stalling, but as Augustin pointed out, look at how many people complained they couldn't play Barrow Hill because of it being on DVD. If they had no choice, then yes it would work and they would upgrade. The problem is that they do have a choice. Heck, look at how many people complain when a games specs are too high. Pretty sad actually.
As was pointed out earlier, something like Oblivion required a powerful PC, so it was pretty much a given that the people who could play it had a higher end PC and thus a DVD drive. AGs just don't require heavy system specs, so people can hold on to those old PCs for a lot longer - unfortunately.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 12:48am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | ivinia, you are right about newer games with higher specs, but even plenty of those get changed to cds... ok, maybe barrow hill doesn't have too high specs, but doesn't dreamfall? it won't run on a machine from 1999, but it did turn to 6 cds after all... same for the aforementioned world of warcraft... actually, i don't even know if i can find any adventure games released on dvd in the us, regardless of the specs - are there? and if agustin's percentage is true, then that is like giving the finger to the rest 95% of pc users, only because none of them will go "it's cd, i won't buy it"! the great thing to do to send a good message about this, is dvd users to buy only the dvd versions!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 3:05am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Heck, even Doom 3 was released in CDs. That fact should speak alone for itself! And I don't think that supporting CD only is like "giving the finger" to DVD users. It was your choice to buy a DVD drive after all
OK, so your solution is that as many companies as possible start supporting DVD. Let me put it this way: what about the first ones? Until the DVD is finally imposed, the first companies that "force" the move are very likely to lose cash, because the market isn't still ready for it. That is, unless a big amount of companies agree and coordinate to start imposing the DVD format all at once. Conclusion: ain't gonna happen.
As for the percentage, it's simple: no company is willing to risk that 5% or whatever. People with DVD can play CD games. People with CD can't play DVD games. Guess which format wins
Back to Bluray - here's the problem: the switch from VHS to DVD was huge and won everyone's attention. The switch from DVD to Bluray is NOT that important to the average consumer. It sounds too much like something strictly for hi-tech freaks. Perhaps only when HDTVs become well widespread and consumers realize that Bluray is a great compliment for it... perhaps only then Bluray will become a serious competitor for the DVD. And trust me, that certainly won't be happening in just a couple of years!
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 4:39am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | well, there were plenty of companies that started requiring more hd space, higher gfx cards, faster cpus, and all those items cost a lot more than a dvd... dreamfall would not be able to play on a pii or on a tnt, or install on a 10gb hd, unless it's practically empty, but there was a problem with the dvd? and if it was made for tnt2, you could still be able to play it on a 7950, but of course it wasn't... so it all comes down to some weird fixation that ONLY american publishers have with the cds (are there still games on cd in europe?)
as for bluray, well you're making the mistake that mr lipid mentioned that americans do about dvds... blurays are NOT just movies... they're storage devices, like dvds, cds and floppies... and with 25/50 gb, can you imagine what kind of games we could be able to experience? (that is if stupid dload models don't eliminate everything and keep games down to sizes of 100-200 mbs :)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 5:16am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | One more point.
The Federal Communications Commission -- the crowd responsible for making decisions about TV in the United States -- has set a deadline of early 2009 for the transition from analog to digital transmission of TV signals. This means two plus more years of folks wondering whether or not they want a new digital TV. Say, an HD TV.
This process is being slowed by spotty HD content availablity and concerns from producers that folks will make perfect digital copies of TV content and make those copies freely available, thus depriving the entertainment industry of much-needed income.
Super high definition DVDs play a very small role in this turbulent soup.
Until the content exists and most folks have an HD TV and the protection of digital content gets solved, the next generation of DVD may be asked to take a seat in the hall and cool its heels.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 7:36am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | DVD = Digital Versatile Disc (not Digital "Video" Disc)
Yet people still buy tons of CD +/- Rs and RWs because they think they can't use DVDs for anything but pirating downloaded movies.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 9:04am |
Virginia.Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 23
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Online | A DVD/CD combo drive is normal on a computer and has been for many years. Perhaps that is the problem?
Adventure Gamers may have to upgrade their graphics card to play a game they are really wanting but forget they can upgrade drive, RAM and etcetera? I've seen posts on some Forums where people still only have a 64MB graphics card!
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 11:15am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Virginia. (23 NOV 2006 9:03am)
I've seen posts on some Forums where people still only have a 64MB graphics card!
I dig. I went from a 12MB card all the way to a dual 256MB video card system.
For several years, all I could do would be: pick up a game box, turn it over, look at the specs, sigh...and place the box back on the shelf.
Despondent, I would go back home - and try and figure out RHEM some more.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 23 NOV 2006 at 2:51pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya (23 NOV 2006 4:39am)
well, there were plenty of companies that started requiring more hd space, higher gfx cards, faster cpus, and all those items cost a lot more than a dvd... dreamfall would not be able to play on a pii or on a tnt, or install on a 10gb hd, unless it's practically empty, but there was a problem with the dvd? and if it was made for tnt2, you could still be able to play it on a 7950, but of course it wasn't... so it all comes down to some weird fixation that ONLY american publishers have with the cds (are there still games on cd in europe?)
I think what MrLipid said may very well be the reason behind the reluctance of upgrading to DVD - people just don't feel the need to. A new and powerful graphics card can be taxed very quickly, whereas the usefulness of more storage isn't that evident at first. Then again, not many games are requiring DVD, which isn't motivating people to buy them, and publishers won't release stuff in DVD until people buys them. It's like a vicious circle.
But really, try not losing any sleep over it - it's a crazy industry out there. I'm still trying to figure out how it all works
as for bluray, well you're making the mistake that mr lipid mentioned that americans do about dvds... blurays are NOT just movies... they're storage devices, like dvds, cds and floppies... and with 25/50 gb, can you imagine what kind of games we could be able to experience? (that is if stupid dload models don't eliminate everything and keep games down to sizes of 100-200 mbs :)
Blurays are not going to prove that useful for games. Certainly not this decade. The problem is the speed of readers. Name one game that allows it to be fully executed from its DVD... anyone? :
The bottom line is, no optical medium will ever catch up with hard drives in terms of speed. And few people will be willing to install 25-50GB games in their drives. Therefore, I can only see Bluray in games as a potential boost for quality in cutscenes only... and with games in general leaning more and more towards realtime 3D experiences, cutscenes should be the least of worries.
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