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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:11pm |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Yeah, I was listening to the news right as I read this...
Terrible tragedy...
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:32pm |
| Deleted User | Also seems like people are immediately thinking up possible terrorist scenarios. The first Israeli astronaut was on this mission and he apparently participated in a bombing in Iraq in 1981.
Seriously, people should be less paranoid and consider both the fact that space flights are extremely risky and that it would be insanely difficult to sabotage a Nasa spaceflight with the amount of security they have. As of now, there is no proof of either case. I wonder how they are ever going to find out what happened now. The pieces left are probably very, very small... And according to Texas police, possibly poisonous. That may not be entirely false, but I think they are also saying this because they're hoping that people won't bring home any souvernirs...
Takeoff and re-entry are the really dangerous parts, so it's in a way very tragic that it happened during the last stage of landing, which is considered relatively safe. My guess is that they burned up something in the athmosphere. Maybe a ceramic plate broke during re-entry and something underneath it was destroyed. It's going to be hard to find out. With challenger they found the critical piece in the ocean and there was even video evidence of what had happened. I don't think they have as much data to work on this time...
The news still says the crew are believed to be dead. As if there was any possibility they weren't. There is no way to escape the shuttle.
As if Nasa didn't have enough problems, now they're in deep, deep trouble. It's going be a long time until the next shuttle takes off, if ever.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:34pm |
eGoateeSpace Cadet
Posts : 157
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Yes it's sad. They say no one except authorities with masks should get near any smoking debris because it's poisonous and can kill within 48 hours after breathing it. I hope kids or any of the general public don't wander next to the pieces by mistake or curiousity.
eGoatee
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:42pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I just got up and read your posts, am turning on the news now.
You are right, stop putting terrorisim into everything.
Why is the debris poisonous?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:54pm |
| Deleted User | There are of course poisonous materials carried with the space shuttle, but I think it's mostly just a safety precaution to make this statement, and it will keep people's dirty hands off important evidence as well, so that's a bonus they get from this statement.
An astonishing coincidence:
Apollo 1 bursts into flame and kills three astronauts: Jan 27, 1967
Challenger booster rocket explodes during launch and kills seven astronauts: Jan 28, 1986
Columbia breaks up during re-entry and kills seven astronauts: Feb 1, 2003
These are of now the only (official) lethal spacecraft accidents at Nasa. Seems like they're not doing very well around this time of the year... I don't think astronauts tends to be supersticious, but I can imagine one or two of them getting cold feet in the future when they are going on late-January space missions.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:58pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | I'm scared - I had just finished watching October Sky when I read your post, Petter
I'm watching the news now.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:15pm |
ValGuild Master
Posts : 3480
Joined: 2 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Horrible, horrible tragedy.
We can be heroes, just for one day.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:01pm |
| Deleted User | Ok, now Nasa is telling it straight. This is from their homepage:
"NOTE TO PERSONS IN THE AREA: All debris is United States Government property and is critical to the investigation of the shuttle accident. Any and all debris from the accident is to be left alone and reported to Government authorities. Unauthorized persons found in possession of accident debris will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law."
I wonder how far they would push such a case...
And what's going to happen with the ISS crew? As far as I know, the Shuttle is their main way of transporting people up there and back to earth. They can not just leave them stranded up there for the very long period of time the investigation will take. Russia will probably have to step in and help them out...
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:01pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Terrible for the families of the astronauts, terrible for NASA.
I find the terrorism speculations ridiculous. It would be surely thousand times easier to sabotage takeoff. Moreover accidents do happen even without terrorists.
My take on it - the Columbia was too old. Remember, this space shuttle first flew in 1981!
The more sensible speculations I have read so far:
- The angle of descent was not correct and the shutle was probably descending too fast.
- There was some sort of structural failure.
One of the wings may have torn off. An interesting tidbit is that supposedly an insulation tile (is ceramics what they use?) fell off during takeoff and damaged the wing. This was apparently visible on the Jan 16th takeoff footage.
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:07pm |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I agree with you Michal.....it was an old shuttle to still be using.....
Gayle......there are poisonous gases around the debris, and they said earlier this morning, that anyone getting near it or touching, breathing the toxious fumes, will die within 48 hours. The gases surround the lungs with a membrane.....and you die....
My heart goes out to the families.........so sad........ :'(
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 8:17pm |
| Deleted User | Yes, the shuttle is covered with ceramic tiles underneath it, around the nose area and at a few other areas exposed to extra heat during the descent. They're easy to spot, as it's the parts of the shuttle that are black. It's like a gigant jigsaw puzzle. About 22000 individual tiles, each one unique and labeled. Between each flight, every single tile is checked for damages. They wear down a little each flight, so they constantly replace old ones that with new, fresh tiles.
Without the tiles, the shuttle would burn up in the athmosphere. It reaches extreme temperatures, enough to make the ceramic material white-glowing hot in the nose and at the wingtips.
I'm a little sceptic to the argument that it was Columbia's age that caused the problem. All shuttles are designed to last for 100 flights, and no shuttle have flown even 30 times as far as I know. They are all basically identical, and virtually everything is checked and double-checked before and after each flight. They go over the metallic structure with X-ray cameras to check for stress-induced cracks, check every component the electrical system etc. I think it could just as well have happened to some of the other shuttles.
The problem can also be that a computer error or rudder malfunction gave the shuttle the wrong descent angle. The angle of descent has to be very precisely chosen. If it's too high, the shuttle will bounce off the athmosphere back into space, and if it's too low, the friction against the athmosphere will get too high and the heat would burn right through the heat shield.
Another possibility that I haven't heard mentioned yet is that the shuttle collided with something during re-entry. At these speeds it doesn't take much for something to break. The shuttle once collided with a small flake of paint in orbit, and it nearly broke through their windshield!
That thing about the gases seems a little weird. I think they're mostly trying to scare people away from the debris. Some parts could be contaminated, maybe, but I'm sure most of it is perfectly harmless. Why would, for instance, a small piece of metal that's fallen through the athmosphere in incredible high speeds ooze a poisonous gas??? I'm only asking...
Seems like no one on the ground was hit, which could prove to be extremely lucky. The astronauts knew about the dangers. They and their families have had the time to think about the risks. But you cannot exactly expect someone on the ground to prepare for the risk of getting hit by a piece of spaceship... Still, a terrible tragedy.
About ISS: After thinking about it, I would have to say it is reasonable to believe they have a contingency plan for this, considering the scale of the project. After all, another shuttle accident was a reasonable thing to plan for.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 8:38pm |
| Deleted User | I just checked up on ISS. It seems like there are only three guys up there at the moment. But this station is planned to house about a hundred people when it's complete. Now, they may take these guys down using a russian Soyuz vessel and leave it alone up there, possibly for years. It took two years after Challenger before they launched the shuttle again. Considering the development of a new generation of spacecraft it may very well be the case that they will never ever launch another shuttle.
This will result in huge financial and scientific loss for every country involved. A possible Mars expedition might have to be postponed for many years... :'(
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 9:02pm |
| Deleted User | I just now saw the newsflash -
I'm so sad for the families and my heart goes out to them.
I have to agree that the Columbia must have been showing its age - 113 flights into space.
It's not like flying on a normal airline - that's what's so deceptive about a re-usable shuttle. It's easy to forget just how dangerous and tough space is.
Apparently something broke off and struck the shuttle during take off -
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:00pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (1 FEB 2003 8:17pm)
All shuttles are designed to last for 100 flights, and no shuttle have flown even 30 times as far as I know.
You know, the WTC was designed to withstand a plane crash too.
Another possibility that I haven't heard mentioned yet is that the shuttle collided with something during re-entry. At these speeds it doesn't take much for something to break. The shuttle once collided with a small flake of paint in orbit, and it nearly broke through their windshield!
Yeah, but that was in orbit. Debris can float in orbit pretty much indefinitely. But when the shuttle crashed, it was not all that high (but still way too high for birds etc.).
That thing about the gases seems a little weird. I think they're mostly trying to scare people away from the debris.
Almost certainly. I think the "poisonous gases" are just BS. They are afraid that people will pick the debris up as "souvenirs" which might prevent NASA from determining the cause of the disaster.
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:15pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (1 FEB 2003 10:00pm)
Almost certainly. I think the "poisonous gases" are just BS. They are afraid that people will pick the debris up as "souvenirs" which might prevent NASA from determining the cause of the disaster.
I thought exactly the same but wouldn't those metals be extremely hot for people to take them?? I'm sure they're still burning as hell. I don't think you can take one without the appropiate tools.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:26pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (1 FEB 2003 10:15pm)
I thought exactly the same but wouldn't those metals be extremely hot for people to take them?? I'm sure they're still burning as hell.
Not really. For one thing, metal cools off pretty quickly. For another, objects falling from space are apparently usually not very hot on impact. Remember that lower layers of atmosphere are very very cold and that smaller objects do not travel all that fast. There is a thing called terminal velocity, which is when the atmospheric drag and gravitational pull are in balance and that the object travels at constant speed.
I forgot my sig.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:22am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Anyone here from Texas, that may have heard or seen it?
People will take these pieces and try to sell them, either on ebay or make Nasa pay them big bucks to get them back.......don't ya think?
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 4:46am |
JoGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Location: AU, Qld.
Status : Offline | Only heard about this a short time ago. All I can say is I feel quite shocked. We almost seem to have taken space flight for granted these days and I guess one tends to sort of forget about the risks involved.
They are afraid that people will pick the debris up as "souvenirs" which might prevent NASA from determining the cause of the disaster.
Quite agree, Govt. departments in any country don't like the public to interfere with their investigations and would probably say anything to keep people away from the site.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 9:37am |
| Deleted User | medicro, I'm not sure if your comment actually implies this, but Columbia hasn't flown 113 times in space. That's the number of shuttle space flights put together. There are still three shuttles left: Discovery, Atlantis and Endeavor. Columbia was the oldest one though, although not by much. It was Columbia that was used during the legendary mission to repair the Hubble space telescope.
The thing that broke off during takeoff was apparently a bit of foamcore from the fuel tank. It was assessed that this could not have harmed the shuttle, but they will surely take a second look at their data now. However, I still think that is an unlikely explanation.
It seems that some systems inside one wing stopped working, and more and more problems followed this.
The inexperience of the crew cannot be ruled out either. Despite months and months of training, nothing gets exactly like real life. The shuttle is extremely difficult to handle during the last landing stage. NASA Astronauts likes to call the shuttle a brick with wings, as this is how it feels. It lands in a much, much steeper angle than a normal plane because it has very poor flying capabilities. The wings are more of aerial brakes than actual wings.
About WTC: Yes, it was designed to withstand getting hit by planes, but not planes of the size the terrorists used, as they didn't even exist back then.
Anyone stupid enough to try and sell a piece of shuttle debris on ebay would probably be hunted down by the FBI right away. I don't think that will happen though...
Challenger landed in the sea and needed to be recovered using a special deep-sea submarine designed for scientific exploration. It was a very difficult operation, but they knew what to look for. This time the pieces will be easier to recover. It's also very possible that the degree of destruction isn't bigger than last time. Challenger was sitting on tons of explosives when it blew up, and at this speed, debris may be as much damaged when hitting a water surface as when hitting dry land. Maybe there even is a black box sort of thing that may have survived. The shuttle is sure to have a few of those.
My theory of the shuttle hitting something would only work if they hit something in orbit and didn't notice it. However, it may be that it is very easy to notice such a thing. They would probably hear and feel it if something hit them hard enough to damage the shuttle.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:32pm |
| Deleted User | One of the astronaut was from India. And she was killed. I mean she was the first astronaut from India.
I still remembered when the Challenger crashed. It was also shocking. I remembered atthat time we didnt have class the whole day and the teacher brought in a big tv and we all watched the news.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 5:51pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (2 FEB 2003 9:37am)
About WTC: Yes, it was designed to withstand getting hit by planes, but not planes of the size the terrorists used, as they didn't even exist back then.
But the size of the planes wasn't the problem! It was the fact that the resulting fire weakened the structural supports and led to the collapse. If you remember, both towers did survive the initial impact but collapsed within an hour or so.
I forgot my sig.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 11:59pm |
| Deleted User | Yes, you're right about the fire. I've seen on TV how it worked. The floor planes fell onto each other until it started a kind of chain reaction. But in the same documentary they said that the towers were designed to cope with the biggest plane in existance at the time. If that included the resulting fires wasn't clear though.
BTW: The shuttles does not have anything like a black box in them. That was just a guess I made... They will have to rely entirely on data sent back to earth from the spacecraft. Nasa has a procedure of archiving all data, however insignificant whenever an accident happens. You can hear this in the audio takes after Challenger explodes. The mission controller says something like "hold on to your data, people..."
Seems like they've found body parts now. The area to sweep for parts must be huge! I heard they get on average 25 new reports of sighted debris every hour now.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 12:07am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (2 FEB 2003 11:59pm)
But in the same documentary they said that the towers were designed to cope with the biggest plane in existance at the time. If that included the resulting fires wasn't clear though.
I'm pretty sure that didn't include the fire, and I also think that if the planes were smaller, the result would have been much the same. You can design all you want but reality always has an ace up her sleeve.
I forgot my sig.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 9:57am |
| Deleted User | Yeah, and they were breaking new grounds with these towers too, so they didn't have any references. With a normal elevator design you can only build 80-something floors, because when you get above that the entire bottom floor will be filled up with elevator shafts. WTC had a design with "sky lobbies" where you would arrive and change elevators on your way up.
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