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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:16pm | |
| Deleted User | What is this thread about, decide will you |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:34pm | |
| Deleted User | Monkeybone wrote:that get excited about the latest Adventure Game even though the majority of review, previews and opinions about it state that it's total and utter pap. And they'll stand by their opinion, no matter how badly designed or inexscusable the mess is. Have you heard of the expression - 'Hoist by your own Petard?'? You go ahead and criticise people for doing exactly what you're doing in your own post. WHo are you to say something's pap? If someone likes Post Mortem - what makes you right NOT to like it? What makes reviews the benchmark for buying a game or not? I've read reviews that reckon Simon 3D was a great game - I thought it was pants! Doesn't mean I'm right - or wrong for that matter. It's called personal preference. I think it's not a good thing to crticise a personal preference - as we all have different emotional reasons for liking/not liking something. I reckon it's too subjective a topic without a definitive answer. Still - I'm sure you'll get folk talking - and that's never a bad thing! - and it would be very boring if everyone liked the same stuff and thought exactly the same.... |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 7:16pm | |
| Deleted User | This threads a rant, Friday! I'm saying in general, when looking at a bunch - a whole load - of opinions it should be obvious that something is a worthwhile play or not! Argh, dammit, you people are too hard! I'm trying to heat up the forums a bit here! Oh well, I tried... |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 7:33pm | |
| Deleted User | After some thought...Have you heard of the expression - Nope. Please explain! I don't know what a petard is! You go ahead and criticise people for doing exactly what you're doing in your own post. Which is? I don't get it. What am I doing? I'm not buying bad titles, funding worthless developers that have no right to make games that are blatant cash-ins! WHo are you to say something's pap? I have an opinion don't I? I'm say when 90% of the opinions out there say somethings pap, and the general concensus is that it is pap, then sure it's pap? If it smells like merdé, tastes like merdé and looks like merdé - chances are it is merdé! If someone likes Post Mortem - what makes you right NOT to like it? It's generally considered to be a bad game, not outright awful, just really so-so with murky graphics, middling acting, a bad interface and a convoluted plot. That's what I've heard on this forum. So why invest in it if so many people consider it to be not worthwhile? Do you have lots of money? I don't have a spare 30 quid to waste my time on something considered bad and unless there's a demo I won't try it out! What makes reviews the benchmark for buying a game or not? If a director like Soderburg makes a movie, and the general concensus is it's bad from your friends, the reviews in the paper and online - would you go and see it? Thought not. What about a £30 film that lasts 15 hours you've never seen made by a director (or in this case a developer) you can't trust? I've read reviews that reckon Simon 3D was a great game - I thought it was pants! Again, and I've made this mistake too in my rant above, this is an opinion. I've read nothing but really, really awful reviews in magazines like PC Zone. that say it's AWFUL. And you're telling me it's bad. And any of the websites I can pull up in Google that I actually trust say it's bad. I'm hardly going to buy it now, am I? Doesn't mean I'm right - or wrong for that matter. It's called personal preference. I think it's not a good thing to crticise a personal preference - as we all have different emotional reasons for liking/not liking something. I agree on opinions, and you can't have that unless you've really played something. But why invest so much money in something that is meant to be bad? I reckon it's too subjective a topic without a definitive answer. Ding! Wrong! You'll be back... you'll see! MWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Still - I'm sure you'll get folk talking - and that's never a bad thing! - and it would be very boring if everyone liked the same stuff and thought exactly the same... Exactly! Someone has to get the flame rolling! |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 8:45pm | |
| Deleted User | Monkey wrote:Ding! Wrong! You'll be back... you'll see! MWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Too true... A petard is a long sharp and pointy thing.... Anyway - I always tend to make up my own mind regardless of reviews - that's the sort of independent girl I am..... If I agree with reviews in retrospect - I am quite happy to agree with bad reviews. I mean that you are giving a STRONG opinion - regardless of what other people might think. Just like folk who like Post Mortem - regardless of reviews. I'm not criticising this - I think it's good for debate. I'm glad you ARE posting this here - I love watching passion on-line |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 9:42pm | |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 7:16pm) Sorry, just couldn't make out what your point was ??? |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 9:57pm | |
JPSorcerer Apprentice  Posts : 217 Joined: 24 NOV 2002 Status : Online | GOD YOU ARE SO LAME!! EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT, EVERYBODY HAS DIFFERENT OPINIONS!! SO WHAT IF A COUPLE OF CRAPPY GAME MAGAZINES SAY A GAME IS RUBBISH! I'VE SEEN PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM SAY GK3 IS A CRAP GAME BUT WOULD MOST PEOPLE AGREE WITH THAT? - I DON'T THINK SO!!!! NOW, I'M NOT SAYING YOUR OPINION IS WRONG - YOU ARE PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO IT, BUT I DO THINK THAT YOU ARE VERY SAD IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE INFLUENCED BY A MAGAZINE REVIEW!!!!!!!!!! Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve ! |
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:04pm | |
Jenny100Guild Master  Posts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 12:26pm) I delayed buying Amerzone because of bad reviews. But when I finally played it, I loved it. Reviewers don't always like the same things I like about a game. And for me a game's shortcomings in one department can be made up for if it shines in some other way.
I wouldn't judge an entire game by its demo. I haven't played Post Mortem. I'll probably buy it eventually because I like the occasional film noir movie and Post Mortem is supposed to be patterned after film noir. So I want to know how successful they were or weren't. I bought Hitchcock for the same reason. Despite a few bad reviews, I wanted to see for myself. I don't regret buying it, even though it was a so-so game and Arxel has done better.
Maybe because they enjoy things in the game which you do not. Maybe because they don't always agree with reviewers about the games they have played - even reviewers on adventure game sites. |
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:13pm | |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By JP (1 FEB 2003 9:57pm)I think the story is more then great but the game itselve could have been done better (now ppl will get upset with me) |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:01pm | |
| Deleted User | GOD YOU ARE SO LAME!! OK! OK! Stop SHOUTING! You're making it really hard for me to take you seriously! If a couple of "crappy" games magazines that I have found to give honest and trustworthy opinions based on games I've played and liked says smoething is good, I'm inclined to take them seriously. Likewise, I'm not just talking about magazines per se, but the opinions of others on this forum! I bought GK3 (for £3!) and liked it because of people here. I may not have kept with it unless it was for the strong opinions shown here, and I checked out reviews first. Would I have bought it otherwise? Nope! I'VE SEEN PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM SAY GK3 IS A CRAP GAME BUT WOULD MOST PEOPLE AGREE WITH THAT? - I DON'T THINK SO!!!! GK3 is a bizzare title that starts off badly and gets better! But that's not the point, is it? Why buy a game known for being bad unless your some sort of masochist? Why buy a game knowing nothing apart from it's genre? Sure, go with gut instinct if you want, but I don't have that sort of money, the time nor the inclination. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING YOUR OPINION IS WRONG - YOU ARE PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO IT, BUT I DO THINK THAT YOU ARE VERY SAD IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE INFLUENCED BY A MAGAZINE REVIEW!!!!!!!!!! And why is that? Are the reviews in JA+ any different in that respect? Do you trust them, and have you bought games yourself because of opinions? Sure you have! If someone you knew and trusted told you it was crap then you'd be inclined to believe them. I delayed buying Amerzone because of bad reviews. But when I finally played it, I loved it. Now we're talking about opinion. I'm not talking about any reviewers, I'm talking about the big picture. A whole host of opinions boiling down to the simple fact that something's either so-so or not worth it. And there are things like that out there! Reviewers don't always like the same things I like about a game. And for me a game's shortcomings in one department can be made up for if it shines in some other way. Now that would have to be a special case. I don't see the point in desperately trying to sort the wheat from the chaff, I'm after an experience that's worth playing, not endlessly dusting away distractions! If the shortcomings outnumber the good bits then why bother? There's plenty more fish in the sea! I wouldn't judge an entire game by its demo. That doesn't mean it's good. The demo is reasonably lengthy, and usually demo's give a good indication on whether you're going to like something or not. It's a sales pitch. And just because something's film noir (studied it in theatre school!) or a genre you may like doesn't mean it's good, or even worth trying. I like science fiction, but I'm not sitting through Battlefield Earth. So I want to know how successful they were or weren't. Precisely! When something's successful, it normally means it's reasonably good in the opinions of others. Sure, I'd like to try it out myself first, but there are special cases. For example Runaway has been upped so much by reviews, forum opinions and success I'd buy it without trying. But why would I buy something I a)didn't know about or b)knew that 90% of the people who tried it didn't like it? I bought Hitchcock for the same reason. Despite a few bad reviews, I wanted to see for myself. I don't regret buying it, even though it was a so-so game and Arxel has done better. But think of all the other games you could've bought instead! All that time you could've been doing or playing something else instead of playing something so-so. If I buy something bad by accident I give it some time to see if it'll settle, but I'll eventually give up, not pay it through trying to find something worthwhile. There's no use buying an Adventure Game just because it's an Adventure Game. Maybe because they enjoy things in the game which you do not. But how do they know if they've never played it? All the reviews and opinions are really negative! Why bother? There's not enough spare time to play something that isn't worth it! Maybe because they don't always agree with reviewers about the games they have played - even reviewers on adventure game sites. That's why I try for as much info on a £30 release as possible. I'm not saying don't splash out if you've got the cash, but people seem to spend money on what is, in the opinions of others, utter trash and argue about it's one and only redeeming feature, whatever that is. Lifes too short. |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:18pm | |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 7058 Joined: 14 SEP 2003 Status : Online | Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 11:01pm) A haiku written tomorrow! How cool is that I forgot my sig. |
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:21pm | |
| Deleted User | That is pretty cool isn't it? Purely accidental! UK time diff, I guess. Is this a first? No! Actually... I meant it to be that way!! |
| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:31pm | |
JPSorcerer ApprenticePosts : 217 Joined: 24 NOV 2002 Status : Online | Monkeybone, First off let me apologise for shouting - i just got carried away. Anyway, to get to the point - I have never bought or not bought games based on the reviews found in magazines, and that has worked both ways for me: I bought GK3 & Mystery of the Druids because I liked the ideas presented in their storylines - unfortunately Mystery of the Druids was poo! and GK3 I absolutely loved. So what I am trying to say but maybe not succeeding , is that there are good game and there are bad games, but just because some reviews say one thing it should not necessarily be taken as gospel! Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve ! |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 12:12am | |
| Deleted User | OK Monkeybone - do you mean that if a LOT of people say a game is pants - that means it IS and I won't enjoy it? I LOVE the Atlantis games and repeat play them - I can't imagine how anyone could think they were baaaaad. Now - it matters not one jot to me if the rest of the world hated them - I liked them. I want to see more of them. I will buy games which I think may hold the same promise - regardless of reviews, opinions etc. I've seen lots of praise for phantasmagoria on this forum - but read some awful reviews when I did a search tonight to se if the game was still available to buy. Reviews ARE opinions - nothing more or less. My opinion to anyone who hasn't tried Atlantis is - try the second one - it's worth it for the Irish episode alone (although I thought it was great all the way through) I'm happy to make up my own mind... I can't see why I should slavishly be affected by reviews and 'the bigger picture' (whatever that is...) - |
| 2 FEB 2003 at 12:22am | |
MichalNGrand InquisitorPosts : 7058 Joined: 14 SEP 2003 Status : Online | Originally Posted By medicro (2 FEB 2003 12:12am) I loved Atlantis 2 aka Beyond Atlantis... beautiful artwork and some good puzzles (the rainbow man puzzle was cool). I don't care if all reviews in the world shredded it to pieces, I still liked it. Even if I was the only person in the world who liked it I would still like it. How's that for individualism I forgot my sig. |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:00am | |
dombrewerGuild Master Posts : 3103 Joined: 19 JAN 2003 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 11:01pm) Just because the mass populus thinks something is good or bad proves or disproves its worth is an entirely misleading notion, as has been demonstrated from time immemorial. Several million normal sane German people thought Hitler was a great man and the natural leader that they'd always been looking for. Oh. oops. Okay, that's an extreme example, but the best selling newspaper in the UK is the tabloid rag 'The Sun'. Just because several million of my countrymen read it it doesn't mean a) it's the best paper on sale or b) i must also read it. Ditto for the most popular television shows, the top ten films at the box office, the top 40 in the charts (especially the top 40). I'm one of those strange people who attempts to draw my own opinion, often at odds with the general consensus. Quite often i'll agree with the crowd. More often I won't. I'm one of those strange beings that the mass call an individual. I think it entirely likely that these forum boards are populated extensively by types like me (and you Monkeybone, a individual if I ever saw one ) Back on topic, here amongst your peers you should get a reasonably good viewpoint on a game as we're all commited gamers, but as we've seen - we all love/hate myst/GK3/syberia/TLJ/et al in equal measure. I must admit that I probably buy an adventure game because it is an adventure game, for the single reason I love 'em and there aren't enough of them. It's not all that unusual to suspect that when you consistently play games sub-standard to the best quality you have experienced you just accept what you're given and enjoy what there is to enjoy. I probably do that too. So in the end, a game that is slammed by everybody, in my opinion is still worth looking at if your interest is still piqued. You might hate it too... but you might not. Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 11:01pm) Maybe you should? Nah. Maybe not. As you say, life's too short.... By the way, Monkeybone, just wanted to say I really enjoy your posts - I always look out for your comments and respect and agree with many of your opinions. You're a smart guy, and I salute you! [img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/detective.gif[/img][b]Playing:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/blahblah.gif[/img][b]Reading:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/whistle.gif[/img][b]Listening:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/indie.gif[/img][b]Watching:[/b] |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:34am | |
MrLipidPrivate Detective  Posts : 666 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | Without getting tangled up in the current discussion, I feel obligated to clear up one point. The expression "hoist on one's own petard" means "blown up by one's own bomb." This makes sense when you know that a petard is: 1. A small bell-shaped bomb used to breach a gate or wall. 2. A loud firecracker. |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 3:06am | |
dombrewerGuild MasterPosts : 3103 Joined: 19 JAN 2003 Status : Offline | And another appropriate quote from Mr. Bill Shakespeare's "Omlette" "Nothing is either good or bad but thinking makes it so." [img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/detective.gif[/img][b]Playing:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/blahblah.gif[/img][b]Reading:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/whistle.gif[/img][b]Listening:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/indie.gif[/img][b]Watching:[/b] |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 3:10am | |
Jenny100Guild MasterPosts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | Quote: When it comes to whether I enjoy a game or not, my opinion is the only one that matters. I read reviews to find out facts - for example whether a game has features I might enjoy (intuitive inventory management)... or whether it has features I dislike (a lot of timed puzzles and non-optional minigames). Unless I know the reviewer, I'm not going to trust their opinion on anything.
It's not a special case. In fact, where print magazines are concerned it's almost always the case. And it's also the case with nearly every review website I know of. They'll diss a game because it doesn't have the excitement they want and I'll like the game because the gameworld is immersive (Amerzone) or the characters intrique me (Faust). The only website where the reviews do a reasonably good job of predicting whether I'll like a game or not is Quandaryland. Even websites that specialize in adventure games may not always have reviews I agree with. For example, I really enjoyed Nightlong and really did not enjoy Odyssey. So the JA reviews weren't helpful. (Especially since I bought Odyssey mainly on the strength of the JA review and was disappointed).
How am I going to know whether the shortcomings are going to outnumber the good bits or not until I play the game? Not all shortcomings are weighted equally. And the weightings vary with the individual. And unfortunately, with adventure games, there are not plenty more fish in the sea.
If Hitchcock was worth trying, Post Mortem is likely to be also. The fact that Post Mortem is trying to be film noir is what makes me curious about it, the same way I was curious to see how well Hitchcock succeeded at emulating Hitchcock movies.
If you haven't played a game yourself, you're just passing along second hand information. I'd buy the game because I was curious. I don't have to buy it immediately. I can wait until the game's price is reduced, as I did with Hitchcock. Then I can satisfy my curiosity. I don't think it will be a horrible game. You know, games in the UK often cost more than they do in the USA. That may be one reason you're less willing to try things out for yourself. Another reason is that you may enjoy other genres that I usually don't play. Although I sometimes play action/adventures, I usually play straight adventures. And there are a lot more new action/adventures to choose from. |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 3:11am | |
BelindaSchattenjger  Posts : 2093 Joined: 21 OCT 2002 Status : Online | Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 7:16pm) well Monkey.......if you want to 'heat' up a thread in this forum, head over to 'Seduction'...... |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 3:11am | |
Jenny100Guild MasterPosts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | The thing says my post is too long. Well I'll fix that the same way I do with "too many items" in the express lane.
90% of what people? Game reviewers on general gaming sites? 90% of people playing games, only 5% of whom I generally agree with?
Maybe half a game. Maybe less. I didn't pay much. And I may not pay much for Post Mortem either.
But I satisfied my curiosity. And I didn't hate it. I thought I'd got my money's worth. If I'd paid $30 for it I wouldn't have been satisfied with it, but I didn't pay full price. Nearly every game I play is so-so. I rarely find a truly exceptional game. But Hitchcock was different from the games I played before and after it and so it gave a little variety. The gameworld, though small, was interesting to see. It didn't crash after I'd turned down the audio acceleration. The USA version eliminated that notorious timed sequence on the roof, though it made a big plot hole. So there weren't any really sticky timed sequences to annoy me. It was an OK game and I thought it was worth my playing, though I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone play it if they're expecting something on Hitchcock movie level.
I very rarely buy games and end up finding them too horrible to finish. It has happened, but not that often. There are some games I wouldn't want to play more than once though.
At least we can agree on something. I don't buy every adventure game that comes out. I read the Quandary reviews and maybe a few other reviews (like reader reviews) and knowing my likes and dislikes I try to come up with an educated guess. But I very much enjoyed Atlantis 2 (Beyond Atlantis) even though the end made no sense. I don't remember whether I read any reviews of it or not. I bought it before it was available in the USA and got the DVD version.
I usually finish games, even if it takes a walkthrough. They have to be really boring to make me quit them entirely. But I thought Unreal was boring while I found Atlantis 2 really immersive. How many reviewers at print magazines would have felt that way?
You definitely pay more for games than I usually do. According to OANDA http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic £30 is $49.44 today. Beyond Atlantis and most other Dreamcatcher games are $20 (£12.14). Post Mortem is available online in the USA for $19.90 at one site. Adding on about $5 for shipping, it is still half the £30 you pay for games.
Except I genuinely liked Atlantis 2 and Amerzone. I don't buy every adventure game that comes out. I didn't buy Nautilus, for example, and have no intention to. No one who's played it can deny that it had a lot of timed sequences in it and I really don't like those. But if a review is obviously biased, I take it with more than one grain of salt. And I have found many biased reviews in print magazines where it was obvious that the reviewer simply didn't like the same things in a game that I do. |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 8:23am | |
| Deleted User | OK, No.1 I live in the UK, I'm a bargain hunter, but BRAND NEW GAMES here do actually cost money, even at the cheaper places I go to. And I don't have the money to "invest" in several hour long experiences that waste my time!But I satisfied my curiosity. And I didn't hate it. I thought I'd got my money's worth. If I'd paid $30 for it I wouldn't have been satisfied with it, but I didn't pay full price. Nearly every game I play is so-so. I rarely find a truly exceptional game. Nearly every game you play is so-so? Not a good point. I have you now! MWAHAHAHA! My point is that there's NO POINT forking out cash, unless you've got it, or to waste time, unless you have to much, on something that isn't considered to be worth playing! I'm an individual! Buying bad games doesn't make me individual! I don't buy bad jazz cos it's jazz! I'm not an impoverished nation clinging on to whats presented me to the last dose of hope! If people want to know more about Hitler, they should do some more research into why the Germans did what they did. A whole nation cannot be bad - Hitler was an evil man, slaughtering innocents behind their backs. The thing was, he was very good at spouting rhetoric and used Germany's political and economic situation to his advantage up until 1939, by making himself seem great in the eyes of a desperate people. By the time he was in power, you could say it was too late... BTW - I'm not excusing anyone's bad behaviour here, just trying to prove a point. Which has nothing to do with games. Games are there for fun, to provide an experience. I'm having no moral problems driving my need for other's ppls opinions nor am I rich enough to buy games here and there when I feel like it. So I read reviews, play demo's and ask ppl on the forum. Plus, I have a full time and very individual job which means most of my time is taken up providing other people's entertainment! Why do I play games again? Oh yeah... JP bought Mystery Of The Druids. I played the demo, read people's opinions, checked out the cover and came very close to buying it, but all the negative stuff surrounding it stopped me from getting it. And I'm glad I did. I don't go to the cinema to watch every Jack Nicholson film just because Jack Nicholson in it. I don't buy every animation DVD (I'm an animation freak) just because it's animated. Likewise, I don't just buy and adventure games just because there's a lack of them. Oh yeah, sorry about the Atlantis confusion. I really meant that the first 2 had good opinions written about them, but I had first hand experience of the third and it's was genuinely awful. Plus I was guilty of reading bad reviews first and then buying it on a hunch... argh... i? That's not individualism! I'm not Oliver! It's alright to buy a game for it's genre, but why buy something that you've heard is bad? |
| 2 FEB 2003 at 9:04am | |
mszvPrivate Detective Posts : 751 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Online | Hi, I don't buy ALL adventure games (not yet!) but almost all of the games I buy are Adventure games. To me, a less than perfect adventure game is better than no adventure game at all. I've rarely been disappointed in a game I've played. Obviously, some I liked better than others. If I just can't get into a game, I do use a walkthrough to complete it, so I can see what happened. I do read reviews. I don't always agree with the reviewer's opinon, but if the review is well written, I can tell what the game is like. I know my tastes in gaming, so I can generally tell if there is a game I'll like by reading a review, and seeing the screenshots. I can often tell if I will like a game by looking at the game website. On Post Mortem (different thread I guess) I enjoyed the demo, and I bought the game. I just started it, so I don't have much more to add, except for the fact that I'm really enjoying it. Regards, mszv |
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 10:42am | |
| Deleted User | But wouldn't you agree that in some cases buying purely AG's must come out of some sort of addiction? You played the demo, and you liked it, I didn't - that's different, and the argument isn't based on opinion. I've seen posts that talk about how many adventure game's people have bought, good or bad, and most of the time they haven't played them! You research the game thoroughly, and seem careful about what you buy. That's different to just buying it for the sake of it's genre, though, isn't it? |
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