| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:02am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | I'll seem really stupid if i say that i didn't understand nada from what you've just said???
Personally i believe that Myst designers wanted to create a 1st person perspective game and not what you are trying to say!!!
P.S. are a psychologiste???
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:55am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Godfather (1 FEB 2003 10:02am)
P.S. are a psychologiste???
No, I'm just a psycho! MUAHAHAHAHA!!!
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:16am |
emmaPrivate Detective
Posts : 525
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | It cracks me up, seeing what topics pop ups to break in the Hot Spot!
I consider;
1st person view to be when I look through my eyes. Which I think Myst qualifies as.
2nd, when I becomes you, as in "I'm told".
3rd, obviously, when I look at somebody else entirely doing stuff. Me making the 3rd person character 2nd person to me, LOL!
My head is spinning...
[URL=http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=emma]My DVDs[/URL] | [URL=http://www.adventuregamers.com/]AdventureGamers[/URL] | I haven't lost my mind, I've got a backup on a disc somewhere.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:43pm |
| Deleted User | Ok, here's another approach:
A 1st person perspective means that you judge other characters based on your own senses and feelings.
A 2nd person perspective means that you see yourself through the eyes of someone else, or at least imagine how it would be to do so.
In a way, perhaps a 2nd person adventure game would feature you seeing yourself through the eyes of another character, that is not supposed to be you. Does this makes sense? It would mean that you wouldn't play your alter ego, but your alter ego would be a NPC character. And you would play one of the secondary characters. Could this be implemented in a game at all? Well, maybe, with a multiplayer adventure game where someone else is controlling the main character and you are running around as its side-kick. No, maybe not...
My head is getting messed up too!
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:30pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Yes, Im not to sure what exactly 2nd. person is. ???
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:31pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Ah, nice topic. I once again give my definition - which has nothing to do with yours, Petter:
1st person perspective - you are inside the game and see your surroundings through the eyes of the protagonist
2nd person perspective - like in Tomb Raider, you are inside the game, you are seeing the surroundings through the eyes of yourself, as you are watching the protagonist from a position inside the game, you are controlling the protagonist, but you see through the eyes of yourself, that's the point
3rd person perspective - like in most of the classic adventure games, you are not inside the game, you are just watching everything the protagonist is doing from an outside position, you are controlling the protagonist, but you are not following him inside the world
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:56pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I THINK I understand what your saying about 2nd. person Elfstone.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 7:26pm |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Elfstone i agree with all your ideas but i want to add sth to the 3rd perspective:
You can see the protagonist from a standard angle (like a glued camera) + what you said
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:12pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | I don't think it's possible to have a 2nd person in a game that uses graphics. I think of Tomb Raider as 3rd person because I see Lara on the screen and I control her actions.
2nd person works in text games. You don't actually see any image on the screen. Instead, the game interface is telling you what you see or where you are. In a graphics game, the interface is more direct.
Say you were blind and someone was looking at the screen and telling you what they saw there so you could decide what to do. They'd be talking to you just the way the text parser is talking to you in a text game. For example: "You're on top of a hill. You see a well. There are trees to the right and left of a long path down the hill. You can barely make out buildings hidden among the trees."
"You" is 2nd person. But when you play an adventure that uses graphics, you see things directly. There is nobody telling "you" what you see or referring to you as you unless you happen to have a conversation with someone. And then, it is just like in real life when someone says "you" to you. You're still in first person because you don't have a parser mediating for you.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 12:11am |
karemanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 321
Joined: 10 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Wow. There seems to be much confussion about this. Just to clarify a bit: the terms 1st and 3rd person view are taken from the litterature. A novel is written in the 1st person when the story is told by a character who is also a part of the story. Like "Around the world in 80 days" by Jules Verne, which was told by the main character's helper. 3rd person is how most novels are written, where the story is described sort of from the outside, and the "narrator" can be all-knowing, describing different people's thoughts and feelings.
A game with 1st person view then means that you see the game through the eyes of the character you are controlling (like MYST, Journeyman Project, Quake, Unreal, ...). While games with a 3rd person view don't show the scenes through the eyes of someone, but uses an "invisible" camera so to speak (Monkey Island, SimCity, Tomb Raider, Civilization, WarCraft, ...).
The only way you could have a 2nd person view in a game would be if you were viewing the scene through the eyes of a character you were not controlling. I've never heard of an AG that does this.
Feel free to ignore this post.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 12:40am |
karemanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 321
Joined: 10 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (1 FEB 2003 11:12pm)
2nd person works in text games. You don't actually see any image on the screen. Instead, the game interface is telling you what you see or where you are. In a graphics game, the interface is more direct.
Wow. I've been thinking about this for a long time now, changing my mind several times, but I think text adventures are also 3rd person, because what is describing the scenes to the player is not part of the story. There really isn't a fundamental difference between the scene being described by text or by graphics. The perspective would still be the same. I think.
Feel free to ignore this post.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 1:03am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By kareman (2 FEB 2003 12:11am)
The only way you could have a 2nd person view in a game would be if you were viewing the scene through the eyes of a character you were not controlling. I've never heard of an AG that does this.
Oh yes, I know at least one.
GK3.
Any game which allows changes of camera position and angle within the game world would be 2nd person according to your definition. And mine as well. Cause that's exactly what I wanted to say in my last reply.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 1:22am |
karemanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 321
Joined: 10 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Elfstone (2 FEB 2003 1:03am)
Oh yes, I know at least one.
GK3.
Any game which allows changes of camera position and angle within the game world would be 2nd person according to your definition. And mine as well. Cause that's exactly what I wanted to say in my last reply.
Mmmmm, no it wouldn't. In GK3 you just change the camera's position, and it is always in 3rd-person. Maybe unless you move the camera inside a characters head. Then you'd have 1st person view if you moved it inside Gabriel's or Grace's head (depending on which one you were controlling at the moment) and 2nd person view if you moved it inside Mosely's head.
Feel free to ignore this post.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 1:27am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Ok, in this case you will probably not find any adventure game in 2nd person, because it would be impractical.
Tomb Raider, Morrowind, Outcast...those are all 2nd person for example.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 1:33am |
karemanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 321
Joined: 10 JAN 2003
Status : Online | It would definately be very impractical to use 2nd person view all the time, but sometimes in a game it could be useful, not to mention cool.
I haven't played Morrowind or Outcast, but Tomb Raider definately has a 3rd person view. It's like there is an invisible and immaterial camera hovering in the air behind Lara all the time.
Feel free to ignore this post.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 9:49am |
| Deleted User | Reading Jenny100's post made me come back to my string of thoughts that initiated this idea. Isn't it possible to view a 1st person game as 2nd person if you think of it as that you are not actually seeing what the world looks like, but you are being told so, just like in a text game, but through graphics and sounds instead of text. In a way the game designers tell you what the world looks like through a graphics and audio representation, but not by showing the actual game world as it doesn't even exist. Think about it!
Still, if you view it this time there can never be true 1st person text games either, as the game designers are telling you what you see there too, even though its expressed as it's what you see.
Ever played Mario 64? In that game, the camera is supposed to be controlled by two brothers, constantly flying around Mario for the best angle possible. It's explained in the intro. It's a nice idea actually. Now, if you were controlling the camera guys and the game was just about following Mario around, wouldn't that be 2nd person? On second thought, not really, as the game would no longer be about controlling Mario. And besides, Mario is supposed to be Mario and not your alter ego, (unless you are a chubby Italian plumber with a bad accent that is...)
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:30pm |
judyannSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 319
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I agee with the idea that a "1st" person perspective can be viewed as something other than 1st or 3rd person, depending on your definition.
For me, it has more to do with how I subjectively feel about the game and maybe 2nd person is not the right description in the literal sense.
When I played Myst, I did not feel that was "me." Nor was it anyone I could identify or identify with. It was simply some anonymous character which, grammically, would be third person. But the view was from the first person.
Grammatically, it is either 1st or 3rd, nt the 2nd. Mathematically, however, if you add the 1st person perspective to the 3rd person feel, you get the 4th person game.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 10:47pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By kareman (2 FEB 2003 12:40am)
Wow. I've been thinking about this for a long time now, changing my mind several times, but I think text adventures are also 3rd person, because what is describing the scenes to the player is not part of the story. There really isn't a fundamental difference between the scene being described by text or by graphics. The perspective would still be the same. I think.
I see what you mean, and I agree with everything except where you say text games are 3rd person. Maybe they are sometimes, but not always.
There are two ways of thinking about it. One way is to distinguish between whether you're playing a character or playing yourself. It's a similar difference between Myst and Cameron Files. Both are in first person perspective. But in Cameron Files you play Cameron (3rd person) and in Myst you play yourself (1st person). Yet because of the point of view you have while you play the game, both games are thought of as 1st person games. In Cameron Files you see what Cameron would be seeing on the screen. In Myst, you see what you'd be seeing on the screen - as if you were really there. In neither game do you see the character you're playing on the screen (except in cut scenes with Cameron).
It gets complicated when you compare with novels because there are some novels that are written in first person. The character is telling you his story through his eyes. But the character you're reading about is not you.
I guess it was because text parsers often use the word "you" that I was thinking of text games as 2nd person. But the parser is really just taking the place of the image on the screen in a graphics game. I was thinking of the parser as something like a novel - novels being written using either the 3rd person or "I" and the parser using "you."
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 12:29am |
| Deleted User | Isn't it so that 2nd person and 3rd person are very similar, but with one major difference?
In 3rd person you are watching someone else, but the other person, not you, decides what the other person thinks and feels.
In 2nd person you are also watching someone else, but you are using your mind to imagine what the other person thinks and feels.
Put in another way, in 2nd person you try to put yourself in the shoes of someone else. In 3rd person you are just an observer.
Does this makes sense?
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 1:37am |
karemanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 321
Joined: 10 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Damn, this is getting complicated! Ok, first of all we should remember that when a game is said to be 1st or 3rd person, it's the view (or perspective) we're talking about. That is if we see the game through the eyes of the character we're controlling (1st person view), through the eyes of a character we're not controlling (2nd person view) or through some invisible "camera" (3rd person view). 1st or 3rd person can also be used when refering to whether you control yourself or someone else, like Jenny100 said, but that would be "1st/3rd person control" or something like that and wouldn't have anything to do with the view.
When it comes to text-adventures I don't have a lot of experience, so could anyone give an example of a text-adventure with a first-person view?
Feel free to ignore this post.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 10:04am |
| Deleted User | Umm, I just had another thought. Couldn't you claim that the 3rd person games are actually 2nd person? The reason would be that in a book or movie, you can observe another person doing stuff, but you are not involved in his/her actions. In a game however, you are able to control the character, and therefore "act out" the game by doing things that you think is logical from the standpoint of the other person. You are controlling this person, so it is your mind that is working, not the other person's. Well, in some cases it is, such as during dialogue and cutscenes, so that wouldn't be entirely true. It's kind of a 2.5th person perspective really...
But the terms are probably only meant to refer to the graphics anyway...
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:52pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I have another definition for a would-be 2nd person perspective.
You control the view of the game, but the main character controls himself. It's impossible to implement, but that would be true 2nd person perspective.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 4 FEB 2003 at 3:25am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Here's another possibility for 2nd person -
The game starts to control you!
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| 4 FEB 2003 at 7:59pm |
emmaPrivate Detective
Posts : 525
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Could somebody please hand me a drammamine?
[URL=http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=emma]My DVDs[/URL] | [URL=http://www.adventuregamers.com/]AdventureGamers[/URL] | I haven't lost my mind, I've got a backup on a disc somewhere.
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