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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:10am |
ArnirIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | So, what is an adventure game?
From reading the Myst thread here and other threads including what is needed to save adventure games, I think the biggest question and source of controversy is simply, "What is an adventure game?"
I admit that I don't really know the answer, but some good suggestions are in the Myst discussion. Plot, puzzles, character development, etc., all come to mind. Has the definition changed over time?
Back when I first played an adventure game on my junior high school's computer system, none of us knew it was an adventure game. But getting the bird out of the cage was an event for our class. I'm serious, it was an event. We competed to see who could figure out this nasty puzzle first. I'm proud to say my partner and I won the race. Others claimed they figured it out first, but we got it typed in first! ) Back then, the game was literally an adventure.
Of course then came the Infocom greats where the adventure was more to figure out the correct syntax. You knew how to solve the puzzle, just not how to type it in correctly. The graphic text adventure was great. I was proud of my Apple ][+'s few colors). The text issue remained, but developers had a sense of humor. Being a teenager, I told Kabul Spy to "blank" itself, and it suggested the cassette port in back. I almost died laughing after getting over the shock.)
I can remember how the all graphic adventures promised to end the parser war (correct term?) and led us to the pixel hunting war with game designers. I think one of the Indiana Jones games was the first I played with a "hot spot" and I was outraged because this wasn't an adventure game anymore. Anyone could solve the puzzle by running the cursor all over the screen.
Of course, as time went on, the hot spot became critical. It wasn't an adventure game without it. I can't remember which game it was, but Sierra produced an adventure that had the player throw a knife between a characters fingers on a table. Timing was critical. This to me, at the time at least, made the game an arcade game and not an adventure game. Arcade games were for reflexes, adventure games were for brains.
I give all of this background because A) I'm bored, and B) to show briefly how my perceptions of the genre changed over time.
I'll admit, I hate hybrids. I have lousy reflexes, and I feel cheated when I have to use them in an adventure game. But does that make the game less of an adventure game? You tell me. I say yes.)
I think an adventure game is a lot like art and pornography. I can't define them but I know them when I see them.
Plot is critical. The plot makes it an adventure.
Character development? Not to me, per se. Adventure games need to get the player to connect with the character or the story. I think Myst was an adventure because I got sucked into the world. In some sense, the world was the character. If I'm the player, the game shouldn't develop me. I think character development is more a requirement for role playing games.)
Puzzles: To me another mandatory item. Puzzles can be of almost any type (to taste) but they change the game from a simple multimedia movie to an adventure game. The challenges from puzzles makes the adventure.
Characters: to me another critical component. Some might disagree with my definition of characters). Adventure games need other characters to interact with the player. These can be "true" characters like the cast in Grim Fandango and TLJ, or the environment like in Myst. A good haunted house is one of the best characters around, IMHO.
Anyway, this is just a starting point. I'm interested in your responses to see if perhaps the biggest problem we have is the inability to define the genre. I created this separate thread from the Myst thread to keep the topic sharpened and not focused solely on Myst.
So folks, what is an adventure game?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:27am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Arnir (1 FEB 2003 4:09am)
I think an adventure game is a lot like art and pornography. I can't define them but I know them when I see them.
You nailed it right there!
So folks, what is an adventure game?
There is no objective truth (or definition if you wish). It's all in your mind. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:34am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Tell me how adventure games can be like porno?? ?? ??
I got to hear this one................
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:44am |
ArnirIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (1 FEB 2003 4:27am)
You nailed it right there!
There is no objective truth (or definition if you wish). It's all in your mind. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.
I can't go quite as far as you. I think that there is a "true" definition, but the edges are fuzzy. Maybe this will be one of those "well an adventure game isn't. . ." definitions.
Just put When Harry met Sally into the DVD player at a bachelor's party. There may be the sound of an orgasm, but everyone in the room will tell you it isn't porn!
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:47am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Uuufffff this is gonna be a long subject...
OK, let's see - what was the first adventure game? Colossal Cave. What it did have to offer? Minimal to none story. Puzzles that where there just to bother. No characters (IIRC). I'd say Colossal Cave was a very weak adventure game yet it was the first one.
I firmly believe that the genre was "defined" during the Infocom-era but not even with the Zork series (that weren't much different from Colossal Cave) but with more complex games like Deadline and Starcross. These games had better storylines, better and much integrated puzzles and well-defined characters (I believe this isn't a critical element of the genre though the experience is definitely more rewarding when they're there). They were vastly improved from the first adventures yet there was something that didn't change too much: interaction. This is what makes text-adventures the more richest in terms of exploring a gameworld. Nothing beats them when it comes to give the player the freedom to fully interact with the gameworld (obviously when they're well designed).
From the above thought, I'd say a good adventure requires a balanced mix of story/puzzles. You focus on the story but the puzzles must be there to provide you a challenge (these are games after all!) and help in the advancement of the story - they're the heart of every adventure. Also, interaction is absolutely necessary for immersion.
This is a very purist point of view.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:47am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Harry Met Sally?? I thought we were talking about adv. games?? Are you doing to me on purpose Arnir?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:49am |
ArnirIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Belinda48 (1 FEB 2003 4:34am)
Tell me how adventure games can be like porno?? ?? ??
I got to hear this one................
Well, an AG, like Porn, gets you excited by graphics on the box and then takes you on a (usually) solo flight into fantasy for a while. Then you go online and discuss if it was good for you or not and if it was good for anyone else.
Plus, both often have horrible dialogue and bad voice acting. )
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:52am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | hmm.........got to think about that one.......
If I want porno......I'll rent me a XXX movie.......
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:55am |
ArnirIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Belinda48 (1 FEB 2003 4:47am)
Harry Met Sally?? I thought we were talking about adv. games?? Are you doing to me on purpose Arnir?
Only the shadow knows.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 5:07am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Arnir (1 FEB 2003 4:44am)
I can't go quite as far as you. I think that there is a "true" definition, but the edges are fuzzy.
Let's say I was talking about the edges - and that the edges are actually quite broad. You will find that there is no true definition - because there is no overriding authority that could provide such definition.
Maybe this will be one of those "well an adventure game isn't. . ." definitions.
I think the other discussions have already shown that people can't agree on what isn't an adventure either.
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 5:10am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well.......maybe they should do away with the word 'Adventure'.......aren't all games an adventure anyways?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 8:40am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | IMO there are two categories of adventure games -
1. The exploration adventure - like the Myst games, Rhem, Zork Nemesis, Amerzone, Obsidian, and Riddle of the Sphinx - where the main feature of the game is exploring and interacting with the gameworld. You are alone throughout most of the game except for occasional animations or a cut scene at the end.
2. The other type of adventure is, of course, the story adventure - where the story is the main feature. Anything from TLJ and Gabriel Knight to Broken Sword to Loom, Grim Fandango and Monkey Island would belong to this type. It is usually 3rd person, but can also be first person, as with Tex Murphy Pandora Directive. In the best examples of this type, the characters are well developed and memorable.
Both exploration adventures and story adventures have puzzles. But the nature of the puzzles differs. There aren't going to be a lot of conversation trees in an exploration-type game, though you may see animations. And story-types may have minimal experimentation with the environment. For example, in Riven you have to experiment to figure out what things do. In a story-type game you'd be more apt to have someone tell you how to operate a machine.
Games that are borderline between puzzle games and adventure games are 7th Guest and Shivers. Although there is a gameworld to explore (a haunted house or a museum in these examples), the puzzles in the game could exist outside the game and still be puzzles. You don't have stand-alone puzzles in Myst or other exploration adventures.
I consider games like Jewels of the Oracle and Jewels 2 to be puzzle games. Even though they do have a gameworld (a cave complex or tomb), it is very simplistic. Not only are the puzzles stand-alone puzzles, but the gameworld itself isn't of any interest at all. In fact, when Dreamcatcher republished their 3rd version of Jewels of the Oracle, they completely removed your ability to wander around the caves to find the puzzles.
Some gamers have a strong preference for the story type or for the exploration type. An individual's preference for one type or the other does not make a game in the unpreferred category a bad adventure.
Andrew Plotkin wrote a review of TLJ which he posted on his website here
http://www.eblong.com/zarf/gamerev/longestjourney.html
Most of his review was not really about TLJ but about why he preferred games like Myst. I don't agree with his assessment of TLJ, but he had some interesting things to say about the nature of solving puzzles in Myst-type adventure games vs. the nature of solving the puzzles in Sierra/LucasArts type adventures. For example
...This is what I mean by "telling". In the L/S style of game, most of what you learn about the world is told to you. Printed text, in the older games; spoken text in the recent ones.
Whereas in Myst style games, most of what you learn is shown to you; you see images of the world -- detailed images -- and you must interpret them yourself. Myst itself was nearly wordless (except for other characters and their diaries). Some of Myst's imitators have had voice-overs, or smartass sidekicks; but the bulk of the interaction is still what you see...
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 2:56pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Defining the genre? what, now? in 2003? a genre that's been around for 20+ years need definition now?
of course it does... cause there has been so many NON-adventures promoted as adventures the past few years (myst, kq8 - or maybe even silent hill, resident evil etc!) that ppl don't know what it is anymore
want a definition? adventure is whatever you want it to be! ok? i hope i've satisfied everyone now :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:20pm |
| Deleted User | Oh no, not another one of those, I know you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant kind of topics.....
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:45pm |
| Deleted User | Er.... YEAH!
And the Res. Evils are survival horror, by the way... but we won't got down that road. It's long and rocky and has a cliff edge that leads down to a long drop with pointy bits at the bottom.
HEY - this is the HOT TOPIC forum! OK, we will go down that road!
I think there's a lot to be said for not over-defining things. Adventures just are, and always will be, but sometimes with different looks and flavours.
Some things just are, and should be left that way to an extent, otherwise we might end up with a Sea-Fishing Myst Racing genre...
Some things can't be packed into a neat little box and sent to Venezuela, they have to be kept seperate from the rest of the pack and marveled at for the spectacular little piece of wierdness that they are, like Giants or Sacrifice. But they're not adventures.
Some things are repeated ad infinitum until someone breaks the mould, and although the resulting mess is called an adventure by it's marketers, it's more similar to a fruit fly in both taste and appearence.
It's kind of like the art world, which has been splintered up over the years to resemble a giant tree that has gone through a very large splinter-creating machine. Someone has to shout stop, and until that day the splinters will keep on coming.
Hence the need for a definition. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be evolution, but rather if the genre is to have some purity in it there are some things which are the equivalent of gaming e-numbers, which are very dangerous additives...
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:06pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (1 FEB 2003 2:56pm)
want a definition? adventure is whatever you want it to be! ok? i hope i've satisfied everyone now :
So true, because to me the Resident Evil games are
Survival/Horror/Adventure.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:31pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Totally agree with Aya,. and Gamer, also agree with you i.e. Resident Evil.
Now to really get some ticked off, RPG's are adventures and most of Action games are adventures.
The word adventure is too broad to have it encompass a very specific, narrow definition.
There must be some word(s) that can be used to specifically define the adventure term as it applies to the types of games that most on this board consider the only candidates for the adventure title. ???
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 4:47pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Gayle i don't think you agree with me! on the contrary i think you disagree a lot! but you just didn't understand what i said
what i said is i can't be bothered anymore "defining"/"explaining" about adventures since the word now is so commonly used, it has become "hip" - you find a key lying around while playing quake? you say it's an adv! far-fetched but not so untrue... it has become the same thing like ppl saying Britney Spears is "rock" just because she SHAMELESSLY covered I Love RockNRoll (don't get me started about the video! >) or Limp Bizkit is Metal (FFS!!! )
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 5:34pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | You are right, Aya
I did read your message wrong, oh well.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:39pm |
| Deleted User | Bert wrote:
Oh no, not another one of those, I know you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant kind of topics.....
ROFLMAO
You just got it in a nutshell, there Bert.
Long may it last......
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 7:10pm |
| Deleted User | Aya,
The fact that I disagree with you over whether Myst is an adventure shows that some clarification is needed on what an adventure is. Maybe I'm just slow ???
I'd say the key characteristics of an adventure would be a plot and puzzles. However, I think an additional line of clarification is necessary in any definition we put together to outlaw action or arcade sequences. I am not sure what this should be.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 7:36pm |
| Deleted User | OK, what about GK3 which is adventure all the way thru till the end then?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 8:11pm |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | so............what makes an adventure game A adventure?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 8:22pm |
karemanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 321
Joined: 10 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Which is why GK3 isn't a 100% pure adventure game. It's a 99,9% adventure game with a pinch of action.
Now when it comes to defining a 100% pure adventure game, I think Petter_Holmberg had some very good "golden rules" in the MYST-thread:
1. There's a story behind the games that drive them forward.
2. The game is designed to require no "combat skills". If there is an arcade sequence or two in there, it may be ok, but it cannot be an element of gameplay that runs through the entire game. The central idea with the game has to be to challenge the mind.
3. The puzzles are relevant to the story. They're not just put there for the puzzle-solving challenge like in a straightforward puzzle game.
Though like I've said I think it is possible to make an adventure game without puzzles. And a 100% pure adventure game can't contain any mandatory arcade sequences.
To test these rules, and maybe improve them, it is nescessary to try to come up with games normally considered adventure games that don't follow these rules, and games that aren't considered adventure games that do follow these rules.
Feel free to ignore this post.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 8:33pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | A lot of different game genres have strategy in them. That doesn't make them all strategy games.
Gordon Aplin of Quandaryland wrote an article on what makes an adventure game an adventure game
http://www.quandaryland.com/2001/name_of_the_game.htm
One excerpt:
As with other genres adventure games can be defined by the predominant activity or style of gameplay. In this case it involves exploring a given game world for a particular purpose by using one's reasoning capabilities to overcome contextual obstacles to progress....
...Unfortunately the term "adventure" doesn't really describe that process as vividly as say, First Person Shooter describes the essence of that genre.
So the name "adventure" really doesn't describe the type of gameplay all that well. But coming up with a new name is problematic. Adventure games have been called adventure games for so long that the name probably isn't going to change. I think the best way to describe them is probably to add a further description to the name "adventure." For example "action/adventure" is a name that is already used. And some people even use the term "adventure/action" for games like Outcast where there is more adventure than action. Len Green likes to think of 3rd person adventures as "Quest Adventures" (inspired by the Sierra Quest series I guess).
You can see that this can get complicated. But there is a point to knowing what you're getting when you buy a game. Simply calling it a game an "adventure" doesn't seem to be satisfactory because there is such variability in gameplay in adventure games. Some are first person, some 3rd. Some have you meeting characters, some have you exploring a gameworld by yourself.
Because of the differences in gameplay and the fact that some gamers have strong preferences for certain types of gameplay, I think there is a need for further defining what an adventure game is beyond just calling it an adventure.
If you buy an FPS, you know what kind of game you're getting.
If you buy an RTS, you know what kind of game you're getting.
If you buy a Sim, you know what kind of game you're getting.
If you buy a survival horror, you know what kind of game you're getting.
But if you buy an adventure, you'd better have read the reviews to know what kind of game it's going to be.
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