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| 2 FEB 2003 at 6:58pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I started out playing adventures games in the late eighties with the Zork series. Pretty nice games, I liked them well enough. Before that I had watched my roommate and a few others play Colossal Cave or whatever it was called, in the university computer labs. Though that was cool. Then a friend gave me KQ1. I installed and started to play and was horrified at the primitive graphics, the dull story, the overall lackluster feel. I was working on movies at the time as a lighting technician. We were shooting on 35mm Panavision cameras and making absolutely pristine, beautiful images. I was also involved in fiction writing workshops and had contact with amazing, highly published writers. In comparision, the "good old adventure games" did absolutely nothing for me. I said, forget it, I'll wait until the technology evolves to a point to where I can stand to look at the screen and the writing matures to where I could bear to plod through the story. I was in my thirties at this point, (I'm 52 now) and my focus was on the above mentioned areas, film and fiction. Games had briefly appeared on my radar and then faded from sight.
Then I saw Myst on the shelf, bought it and was blown away. I started playing all the adventure games I could get my hands on.
I haven't played Myst again and other than takjng a run at RealMyst I don't intend to. It's not that interesting a game to me now though I do see a deeply buried story in it that others apparently refuse to accept even exists. Now, I'm going back through the older adventures, realizing now that my early prejudices were wrong and very unfair and kinda dumb. Some the old adventures are amazing and I kick myself for so quickly forming a bad opinon but that's in the past. (Still hate the KQ series though, hee, hee, sorry but, never mind....) The point to this long rambling (for me anyway) post is to say that Myst did bring me back to gaming after an early, aborted start. I can't see what's bad about that. (Don't say it.) And I agree that it's a puzzle game and I still assert that it's a kind of puzzle game that is a valid subgenre of the adventure game.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 9:01pm |
| Deleted User | There's nothing wrong with a simple interface- Myst's point-and-click interface may be simple compared with recent games with 5 different cursors to indicate what you can do in different areas, but why do we need to be beaten over the head with the options the game wants us to do?
As for the lack of inventory- inventory puzzles can ALL be solved by trial and error. There are no exceptions unless the game deliberately prevents you from using an inventory item before it's needed. All Myst-style puzzles require you to think- and they are certainly more creative than the sliders, mazes (Myst had a maze but it was a gimmick maze) and soup can puzzles in other games.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 9:02pm |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | very well said there scout......
Have you tried playing the KQ games, the later ones, like 5,6,& 7?
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 9:07pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | There's a fine line between a puzzle game with a 'storyline' and an adventure game that's very puzzley.
For example, imagine there's a game where you receive an invitation to a house, and when you get there you find ten rooms, each containing a stand-alone puzzle to solve. You solve the puzzles, and then a secret door opens in the wall, some guy walks out and tells you the house was set up by an eccentric millionaire and the first person to solve the puzzles will inherit his fortune. Congratulations!
This game has puzzles and a 'story'. Is it an adventure game? I would say not, because the story is so ridiculously weak and completely unintegrated with the puzzles. It's really just a puzzle game pretending to be an adventure.
So now to Myst... some people believe it's not an adventure game, and I assume it's because they think the story is too weak and the puzzles too unintegrated. I disagree. I'm not a great fan of Myst's gameplay, but I do think the story (which is mainly implied, rather than told) is strong enough to qualify it as an adventure. As scant as it was, the bits of story I got from the game made me wonder what had happened on the island, and worry about the fate of Atrus. It made me feel that I really didn't want to release either brother from the books, not just because it would be the incorrect ending, but because it would have bad consequences for the gameworld (and Atrus). There was enough story in there to make me care about what happened, and believe that the Ages were real places where people had lived - no puzzle game has ever done that for me.
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 1:36am |
| Deleted User | Exactly Nellie- and incidentally Safecracker is the same premise you just described essentially although the puzzles are interconnected. There is a long way between these kinds of puzzle games and Myst. And incidentally the plot improves in Riven and Myst III.
Whatever your opinion is about Myst, the game was pretty low-budget and what they did was quite astounding given the circumstances.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 4:32am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (2 FEB 2003 4:30pm)
And if Myst did shake up dramatically the genre it was only because it provided a new and exciting format: simple and friendly adventuring that appealed a lot of people not familiar with the genre. That's the secret behind the success of Myst - nothing else.
Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But, in my book, appealing to over 5 million people is probably enough, even if there was 'nothing else'.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 12:55pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (3 FEB 2003 4:32am)
Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But, in my book, appealing to over 5 million people is probably enough, even if there was 'nothing else'.
Enough for what? For claiming it's the most revolutionary adventure ever? Enough for saying it's an outstanding game?
Doom surely appealed to over 5 million people - would you say it's a game with content? Would you say it's an excellent game?
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 1:11pm |
| Deleted User | Enough for what? For claiming it's the most revolutionary adventure ever? Enough for saying it's an outstanding game?
Doom surely appealed to over 5 million people - would you say it's a game with content? Would you say it's an excellent game?
OK, some people here are starting to miss the point. I kind of agree with both Nellie's views and Raels but it's just turning into an argument.
Myst is an adventure, like it or not, in as much as Syberia is an adventure. I agree Myst has more puzzles than most games, but it's not an evolution of Tetris is it? That's what I call a puzzle game!
It's not the most revolutionary game ever, it's just a continuation of an existing genre, much the same as Doom picked up where Castle Wolfenstein left off. It is a good game, but it won't appeal to anyone, but I had my fun with it.
One things for sure - it isn't Riven, which was deeper and had a proper storyline - and rightly so as a sequel.
As for Doom, it was a good game - sure, not to everyone's tastes, but it was an initally small release and a resounding success.
People picked up on the fact that it was both easy to play and provided, despite its graphical limitations, a sense of immersion and atmosphere that no game had really done up till then in 3D.
Creeping round corners even in the original Wolfenstein still gives me the willies...
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 2:24pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (3 FEB 2003 4:32am)
Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But, in my book, appealing to over 5 million people is probably enough, even if there was 'nothing else'.
wow... a fantastic mainstream logic... whatever sells the most, is the best... the way of thinking the media love ppl to have btw... all praise britney :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 3:41pm |
| Deleted User | Aya wrote:
wow... a fantastic mainstream logic... whatever sells the most, is the best... the way of thinking the media love ppl to have btw... all praise britney
But if LOTS of people want to buy Britnay - Christina - Enrico - Boy Bands ad infinitum - can you just dismiss thier opinions?
I hate that kind of music - but there has to be room for mass appeal.
If people didn't like it - they wouldn't buy it.
Who are we - or anyone - to judge a choice as 'bad'?
It smacks too much of elitism to me - and that makes me uncomfortable.
If you don't accept diversity - you can't have evolution.
Because something diversifies from a rigid concept of what a genre should encompass doesn't make it a bad choice.
Myst had story (implied from the diaries you read) -
intellectual puzzles - which were very logical to me once I figured them - although they took me a long time - loads of character! ie - ME.
It was ME playing through the islands and nobody else - total immersion in a fantasy world.
I had to explore and draw my own conclusions.
Because I think that's a GOOD game - doesn't mean I think other types of games are bad. I'm able to enjoy all sorts of games in the adventure genre.
I truly can't understand why some Adventure gamers dislike Myst so passionately.
I know the reasons they post - they just don't make sense to me...
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 4:45pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | You stated very good points, Medicro.
Because you asked why some people dislikes Myst, I'll try to explain my position.
First - I do consider Myst an adventure but think of this carefuly: as an adventure, it's a very weak game (reasons below). As a puzzle game, it's superb. That's a similar feeling I have about hybrids.
Second - I don't consider Myst a bad game. I played it, I wasn't too excited, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it was a piece of crap. It's just that I think it's a pretty average game.
Now, my feelings.
Adventures has always been games where people had to bust their brains in order to design them. Writting a good, compelling story with clever and integrated puzzles has to be the one of the most difficult tasks in the gaming world (in fact, I think only extremely balanced strategy games and RPG are just as difficult to design). That's the reason why I always respected adventures and I think they're the most "noble" genre.
As you may have guessed by now, I'm pretty passionate about this issue.
When a game like Myst is greatly succesful based upon so little, it makes me feel very sad. Why so little, you ask? Minimal interface, minimal story, static scenery. Everything that was needed was just good graphic artists to design the isles and throw some puzzles here and there - I know I'm exaggerating but you get my point. Designing the graphics might have been a hard task but designing the game wasn't. And let's be honest, the puzzles weren't that top-notch either as great deal of them was based upon trial and error.
I know my reasons for disliking Myst maybe aren't good ones but it's just the way I feel about the issue. It bothers me - the people that really wasted their brains on the genre are the most unknown ones.
BTW, sorry if I sounded harsh but, hey, this is the Hot Spot after all.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:12pm |
emmaPrivate Detective
Posts : 525
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Not harsh at all, if you ask me! (Btw, your advert cracked me up! ) I think not liking Myst is perfectly alright, to each their own and all. Not liking people because they like Myst is snobbism/elitism. You didn't come across like that at all Rael!
Hot spot or not, this is by far the most sensible thread about Myst I've seen in years!
[URL=http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=emma]My DVDs[/URL] | [URL=http://www.adventuregamers.com/]AdventureGamers[/URL] | I haven't lost my mind, I've got a backup on a disc somewhere.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:17pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By medicro (3 FEB 2003 3:41pm)
But if LOTS of people want to buy Britnay - Christina - Enrico - Boy Bands ad infinitum - can you just dismiss thier opinions?
I hate that kind of music - but there has to be room for mass appeal.
If people didn't like it - they wouldn't buy it.
Who are we - or anyone - to judge a choice as 'bad'?
It smacks too much of elitism to me - and that makes me uncomfortable.
the question medicro is WHO of those ppl REALLY like what they're buying who are just manipulated by the media? because if someone comes and tells me "hey i just bought a cd of this singer britney spears... i never heard her before and i really liked it" then maybe he/she DOES like her... but real preferences and brain-washed preferences have a huge difference... and you want a great example of that? take the millions who were going wild about Nirvana in the Smells Like Teen Spirit era and tell me what percent of them still like them... cause i still do, because i was not directed towards them by the media, and so might a 10% of those, those who LIKED the music, and weren't "hip nirvana fans"
it's the same about myst... someone likes it? fine... who am i to say he/she shouldn't it... question: did he/she really liked it or was "led" to like it? hard to answer really because if, say, 50% were "led" to like it, not even 1 will actually accept that (as with christina aquilera "fans" saying she is indeed good "music"
in conclusion: liking smth is 100% respected... "led" to like smth is pure mass manipulation, which of course the manipulatees will never realize and accept
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:17pm |
| Deleted User | Rael, I think you underestimate how hard a game like Myst is to make in order to appeal to a wide audience. Reading about it, it was developed as a game for people of all ages to get into, and believe me its very hard to target an audience like that - and I'm speaking from professional experience!
And how do you know how hard it was to design the game? I don't believe you're in a position enough to make that judgement, as obviously it was designed well enough to appeal to the mainstream and those arguing against you in this forum.
It's success really does speak for itself - if that many people were playing it through to the end, there must've been enough of each ingredient to sustain people's interest.
It came out around about the same time as another game with pretty graphics, Rise Of The Robots, and we all know what happened with that! Media hype, loads of people bought it and one month later it was residing in bargain basement bins for $2 around the world. Myst still sells for around a tenner.
And this isn't related to success - people still want to pay to play it.
The problem with a topic like this is that the answers to your questions depend on your point of view with regards to the game and the emotional reponse to the events within the adventure world that were caused because of it.
Ouch. Try saying that 3 times backwards whilst drunk! Actually, try saying that once sober...
HOWEVER - I do admire your honesty about your opinions. The frustrating thing about this sort of discussion is that us oldies are all so entrenched in what we thing makes a good gaming experience that opinions cannot be changed!
But it's kind of fun trying to prove eachother "wrong" though, isn't it?
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:23pm |
| Deleted User | BTW - RAEL - soz about the second paragraph, it came out a bit harsh!
As for all this media brainwash crap - some people fall into traps easily, but as long as they're happy and not getting into anything nasty, who cares? Some of the comments reek of paranoia!
Besides, even within the mass media there lurks individualism. A girl may like Backstreet Boys more than N-Sync!
And as for saddo's that buy the latest thing just because it's cool? That's not media brainwashing, that's just idiotic behaviour if you ask me!
I know people who actively go out and buy cack adventure games based on box art! Is that brainwashing too?
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:31pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By emma (3 FEB 2003 5:11pm)
Hot spot or not, this is by far the most sensible thread about Myst I've seen in years!
Thank you very, very much for the comments! That was the intention of this thread.
And not liking people because they like Myst isn't snobbism - it's "stupidism". No, that's not my point at all. This discussion is entirely targeted to the game.
Rael, I think you underestimate how hard a game like Myst is to make in order to appeal to a wide audience.
Monkeybone, you thing designing games that appeal a mass audience is a hard task? Let me ask you a question - do you think Pacman was hard to design?*
And how do you know how hard it was to design the game?
I think I have the enough experience. I also gave good reasons to support my statement (I think).
But it's kind of fun trying to prove eachother "wrong" though, isn't it?
Sure it is!
*And before you ask, no I'm not comparing Myst with Pacman
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:46pm |
| Deleted User | Monkeybone, you thing designing games that appeal a mass audience is a hard task? Let me ask you a question - do you think Pacman was hard to design?*
Yes, I do. If that's not the case, then how come there aren't more good mainstream games?
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 5:55pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (3 FEB 2003 5:45pm)
Yes, I do. If that's not the case, then how come there aren't more good mainstream games?
I'm sure the guy that invented Pacman just had the idea in a matter of seconds and now he's enjoying his millions. And I do think there are "good" mainstream games right now. If that's not the case, well, that might be because they're harder to come by.
My point is: most people likes simple stuff. Designing or creating simple stuff is easy.
I think that's a fact (sorry emma if it sounds too snobbish).
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 6:07pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (3 FEB 2003 5:55pm)
Designing or creating simple stuff is easy.
Which explains why engineers and designers have to work so hard to create the ridiculously complicated junk that currently fills our lives.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 6:08pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (3 FEB 2003 12:54pm)
Enough for what? For claiming it's the most revolutionary adventure ever? Enough for saying it's an outstanding game?
Doom surely appealed to over 5 million people - would you say it's a game with content? Would you say it's an excellent game?
IMHO, Doom was a game with great content and it wasn't just an excellent game, it was a stupendous game of the time!
Monkeybone pretty much responded for me and I agree with him that some of this discussion has gotten side-railed into a 'Myst is bad or Myst is good' discussion. It is, in the end, largely a matter of taste. Those that don't like Myst probably don't like that type of game no matter what the title. And that's fine. But my big gripe is when it is implied that Myst wasn't an adventure game or is just a puzzle game or was a minor accomplishment swallowed up by the ignorant masses.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 6:09pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (3 FEB 2003 6:06pm)
Which explains why engineers and designers have to work so hard to create the ridiculously complicated junk that currently fills our lives.
SO TRUE!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 6:11pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (3 FEB 2003 6:06pm)
Which explains why engineers and designers have to work so hard to create the ridiculously complicated junk that currently fills our lives.
MrLipid, you know that argument is quite silly (with all the respect ). We're talking about entertainment here.
Sorry if you didn't mean that seriously :
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 6:28pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (3 FEB 2003 6:11pm)
MrLipid, you know that argument is quite silly (with all the respect ). We're talking about entertainment here.
Ever try designing a joke? Or a compelling short story? Or a game as durable as, say, Scrabble? It's only simple once you see it. It's the seeing it part that is difficult.
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| 3 FEB 2003 at 6:49pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (3 FEB 2003 6:27pm)
Ever try designing a joke? Or a compelling short story? Or a game as durable as, say, Scrabble? It's only simple once you see it. It's the seeing it part that is difficult.
I think I know what you mean now but I believe there's "design" even in jokes and stories. You have to do some "designing" if you want the joke to be effective - the same with stories.
I'm sure the guy that invented Pacman had to do some designing but it was fairly simple. I bet my life it only took a couple of hours for him to think the whole game - heck, maybe even a lot less. The same happens with Myst. Of course, I'm not saying Cyan designed the whole game in just a matter of hours but surely it was considerably shorter than many other adventures.
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