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| 1 FEB 2003 at 5:22pm |
| Deleted User | Myst tends to get people's blood pumping one way or the other doesn't it ?
I dislike the implication that Myst was not an adventure game because it is different from other adventure games. Your arguments seem to be that in order for a game be an adventure game it must be similar to other adventure games you've played and it can't be an adventure if you don't like it. Whatever happened to adventure subgenres?
Furthermore, the fact that everyone keeps saying Myst has no characters suggests to me that most of Myst's detractors haven't played the game all the way through. For goodness' sake people- I'm not going to comment on The New Adventures of the Time Machine until I've played it- even if everyone else says it's horrible. For the record, Myst has three characters.
Did Myst attract new gamers? Absolutely. I'm one of them. But did it give me the wrong idea of adventure games? I don't think so- I've still been able to greatly enjoy Monkey Island which is the polar opposite of Myst in every way.
Was Myst the worst thing that happened to the genre? No. Myst clones may be among the worst things that happened to the genre. However, every successful piece of entertainment has had cheap imitations out to make some money. When Charles Dickens was writing his novels there were authors making cheap imitations of his books too- and surely you don't mean to censure Charles Dickens for ruining the novel?
Did Myst repel old gamers? Perhaps. But old gamers get set in their ways- after a steady diet of Sierra and LucasArts since the 80's Myst would be like a slap in the face. Everything new and different is always opposed by people who are used to something else- and I'm sure you can think of plenty of examples of that throughout history.
Is Myst a good game or a bad game? Who knows? All I know is that I liked it (although Riven was better.) Who am I to impose my preferences on the rest of you?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 5:34pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fickfack (1 FEB 2003 5:22pm)
Myst tends to get people's blood pumping one way or the other doesn't it ?
so does Britney Spears!
I dislike the implication that Myst was not an adventure game because it is different from other adventure games. Your arguments seem to be that in order for a game be an adventure game it must be similar to other adventure games you've played and it can't be an adventure if you don't like it. Whatever happened to adventure subgenres?
definately untrue... loved Parasite Eve... is it adv? no... hated Stupid Invaders... is it adv? definately... and btw Unreal is very different from other advs... is it an adv too?
Furthermore, the fact that everyone keeps saying Myst has no characters suggests to me that most of Myst's detractors haven't played the game all the way through. For goodness' sake people- I'm not going to comment on The New Adventures of the Time Machine until I've played it- even if everyone else says it's horrible. For the record, Myst has three characters.
yeah right... 2 characters who say some stuff from a book and the guy you meet at the end getting angry/cheering about the final page (yellow?)... now that made TLJ look interactionless! :
Did Myst repel old gamers? Perhaps. But old gamers get set in their ways- after a steady diet of Sierra and LucasArts since the 80's Myst would be like a slap in the face. Everything new and different is always opposed by people who are used to something else- and I'm sure you can think of plenty of examples of that throughout history.
true... maybe that's why i hated GK3... but it IS an adv, whether i like it or not... the question "is gamex an adv?" has one objective answer and has nothing to do with who liked it and who didn't... myst was a PUZZLE game... whether its lovers like it or not
Is Myst a good game or a bad game? Who knows? All I know is that I liked it (although Riven was better.) Who am I to impose my preferences on the rest of you?
again true... preferences have nothing to do with the genre of the game... and of course all the above lead to the conclusion that it's not old adv gamers that don't consider myst an adv because they didn't like it, but new "myst-introduced" gamers who do consider it an adv just because they liked it....
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:02pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (1 FEB 2003 5:34pm)
loved Parasite Eve... is it adv? no... hated Stupid Invaders... is it adv? definately
I haven't played either game so can't comment on that one.
Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (1 FEB 2003 5:34pm)
yeah right... 2 characters who say some stuff from a book and the guy you meet at the end getting angry/cheering about the final page (yellow?)... now that made TLJ look interactionless! :
It was a low-budget game. Besides, my point was that there are characters, not that their writing is worthy of Dostoevsky. My comments were directed at those who hadn't played the game far enough to even notice any of these characters.
Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (1 FEB 2003 5:34pm)
true... maybe that's why i hated GK3... but it IS an adv, whether i like it or not... the question "is gamex an adv?" has one objective answer and has nothing to do with who liked it and who didn't... myst was a PUZZLE game... whether its lovers like it or not
Myst is not a puzzle game. Jewels of the Oracle is a puzzle game. I didn't like Jewels but I did like Myst. Ditto the 7th Guest. Myst had a plot which simply didn't involve cutscenes or dialogue. The plot in Myst is discovered by exploring and rooting through papers- it is like being a detective rather than witnessing a murder.
Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (1 FEB 2003 5:34pm)
again true... preferences have nothing to do with the genre of the game... and of course all the above lead to the conclusion that it's not old adv gamers that don't consider myst an adv because they didn't like it, but new "myst-introduced" gamers who do consider it an adv just because they liked it....
Isn't it possible that both old and new gamers are painted with the same brush in this respect?
And playing Myst did not stop me from enjoying other adventure games which have the same appeal and interest to me as Myst did. I can have fun playing managment sims as well as adventures but the appeal of management sims is completely different to me from adventures. Playing Myst on the other hand is interesting to me in the same ways that other adventure games are interesting- depending on the quality of the other games of course. I get the same rise out of playing Myst as Dark Side of the Moon or Full Throttle.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:07pm |
emmaPrivate Detective
Posts : 525
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (1 FEB 2003 5:34pm)
preferences have nothing to do with the genre of the game... and of course all the above lead to the conclusion that it's not old adv gamers that don't consider myst an adv because they didn't like it, but new "myst-introduced" gamers who do consider it an adv just because they liked it.... Now it's getting hot in here! Why can't Myst simply be a game that introduced something new to the genre, like it or not, and be done with it? Like anybody of us would have to live with games that we feel is straying away from the heart of AG's, even though embraced by many in our community?
Somebody was first, so IT HAS TO BE SO ALWAYS? Of course not, so somebody was first, so THEY GET TO DECIDE what's acceptable changes? Well perhaps not, since they all have different perspectives, being first or not...
[URL=http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=emma]My DVDs[/URL] | [URL=http://www.adventuregamers.com/]AdventureGamers[/URL] | I haven't lost my mind, I've got a backup on a disc somewhere.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:24pm |
| Deleted User | Aya wrote:
the right idea would be a storyline and characters which evolve during the game... not one personality-less person (the player) wandering around moving levers
But it was ME playing that - there - in the game - on the Island of Myst!
I've been playing all sorts of adventures for years now - and I reckon there's room for them all.
I LOVE being the person who frees Catherine -
not me playing as someone else.
That's why I found it so instantly Immersive.
From the moment Artrus first speaks to me - I'm there!
I love many different types of music and books - it's the same with games.......and food ....
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 6:57pm |
| Deleted User | Exactly- if the world you're exploring is interesting then you'll want to be there. In 3rd person games you are still an observer, if an active observer. I couldn't imagine a 3rd-person Myst.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 7:38pm |
| Deleted User | Aya's wrong! Aya's wrong! Nyanyanyanyanya!
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 7:46pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | OK, the discussion is very interesting so far and very civilized - I hope we can keep it this way! I'll add more detailed thoughts later but I want to say something: Myst didn't introduced something new to the genre (yes, I can prove it ) - it was just an oversimplified design of features already present in the genre. That's the reason why it appealed to so many people.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 9:16pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline |
ZORK is a registered trademark of Infocom, Inc.
Release 52 / Serial number 871125 / Interpreter 1 Version F
West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front
door.
There is a small mailbox here.
>open mailbox
Opening the small mailbox reveals a leaflet.
>pick up leaflet
Taken.
>read leaflet
"WELCOME TO ZORK!
ZORK is a game of adventure, danger, and low cunning. In it you will explore
some of the most amazing territory ever seen by mortals. No computer should be
without one!"
Zork was an adventure game before Sierra and LucasArts started making games. And the gameplay in Zork has more in common with Myst than it does with the Sierra Quests.
>s
South of House
You are facing the south side of a white house. There is no door here, and all
the windows are boarded.
>n
The windows are all boarded.
>e
Behind House
You are behind the white house. A path leads into the forest to the east. In one
corner of the house there is a small window which is slightly ajar.
>look in window
You can see what appears to be a kitchen.
What part of this sort of gameplay does not resemble the gameplay in Myst? Only the fact that Myst had graphics and Zork 1 uses text.
You do meet a troll and a thief in Zork, but you don't interact with them except to subdue them. You create your own story as you go along, similar to the way you do in Myst. One difference is that Myst actually has a backstory that has spun off 3 novels.
Zork was an adventure game before Sierra and LucasArts started making games. And the gameplay in Zork has more in common with Myst than it does with the Sierra Quests.
No matter what your opinion of Myst, it is definitely an adventure game.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 9:34pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Zork has something Myst doesn't - interaction. And that's something very, very important.
But there's another issue: let's assume Zork has the very same gameplay as Myst. Adventures had progressed a lot in every sense since Zork - does that makes Myst an involution in the genre?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:07pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Myst certainly did have interaction.
If you hadn't interacted with anything you'd never have gotten off Myst Island.
And No to your second question (as I understand it).
It simply went in a different direction from the LucasArts/Sierra games.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:14pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Jenny, you have to agree that the level of interaction in Myst was minimal when compared to Zork or many other adventures. As I said in other thread, nothing beats text-adventures in terms of interaction. Just take into account the interface alone. This is what I mean when I say that Myst is "over-simplified adventuring".
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 10:23pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | No I don't.
Myst simplified the game interface. Unlike Zork, you didn't have to figure out what word the parser wanted when you wanted to interact with something or explore some area. You clicked on it to see if it would do something or tell you something.
Myst was not a simple game, but the interface was simple. I don't see anyone complaining because point-and-click in Sierra/LucasArts games is simpler than "direct control."
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:01pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | First thing: the amount of things that you could click in Myst was minimal. It definitely doesn't has comparisson with Zork or any other text-adventure for that matter.
Second - not very relevant to this discussion - I can't think of any Infocom game that suffered from the guess-the-right-word syndrome.
And last, most certainly a simple interface will minimize the interaction. It's a trade-off, like it or not.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:18pm |
| Deleted User | And last, most certainly a simple interface will minimize the interaction. It's a trade-off, like it or not.
That said, give a player too much as in a space-based RTS, and you can lose them. Haven't we been arguing that point n click is the simplest and best interface around? Doesn't Myst utilise that?
Darkfall uses the same interface, yet I found the interaction suprising for the 1st person adventure genre. It isn't any different to Myst.
And I've played the original Zork and Infocom titles. I agree with you on those, but the above I don't.
PS - Rael, I've posted to so many threads now I'm having track of keeping arguments. How do you do it??
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 11:25pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 11:18pm)
That said, give a player too much as in a space-based RTS, and you can lose them.
Yes, but we're talking about adventures
Haven't we been arguing that point n click is the simplest and best interface around?
Compare GK1 with GK2.
Doesn't Myst utilise that?
Yes, a very simplified one.
Darkfall uses the same interface, yet I found the interaction suprising for the 1st person adventure genre.
I agree there, it was decidely much more interactive than Myst (and better IMO) but still not much when compared to other adventures.
PS - Rael, I've posted to so many threads now I'm having track of keeping arguments. How do you do it??
I don't
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:54am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I can't help but feel that some of those describing Myst as some sort of ho-hum game that didn't dramatically shake up the adventure game world, didn't have interaction, and was more derivative of it's predecesors than a breakthru didn't experience Myst when it first came out (ie. they played it years or more after it was introduced).
I remember playing Myst when it was first released which was very much around the time Doom appeared. The effect of both games was dramatic. Local gamestores had Doom and Myst lined up on the shelves and according to salesmen, a lot of computers were sold just because casual buyers happened to see a Doom or Myst demo in the store. Nobody had seen anything like both games.
Like it or hate it, Myst (along with Doom) was a monumentary breakthru product of the time!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:59am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (2 FEB 2003 2:54am)
Like it or hate it, Myst (along with Doom) was a monumentary breakthru product of the time!
of course it was and noone denies that... that doesn't mean it was a good thing to happen though
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 9:48am |
emmaPrivate Detective
Posts : 525
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (2 FEB 2003 2:58am)
of course it was and noone denies that... that doesn't mean it was a good thing to happen though
It doesn't mean it was a bad thing either...
[URL=http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=emma]My DVDs[/URL] | [URL=http://www.adventuregamers.com/]AdventureGamers[/URL] | I haven't lost my mind, I've got a backup on a disc somewhere.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 11:17am |
| Deleted User | Aya wrote:
of course it was and noone denies that... that doesn't mean it was a good thing to happen though
??? ??? ??? how so ?
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 12:11pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By medicro (2 FEB 2003 11:17am)
Aya wrote:
??? ??? ??? how so ?
for the reasons i wrote when answering rael's questions
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 2:35pm |
| Deleted User | I agree there, it was decidely much more interactive than Myst (and better IMO) but still not much when compared to other adventures.
Syberia has less than Darkfall!?
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 4:19pm |
Monsey_JoeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 58
Joined: 2 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Monkey Island 3:
Guybrush:"I like Mist it's pretty"
Ferryman-"Sure it's pretty but egad, it's dull"
What more is there to say? :
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| 2 FEB 2003 at 4:30pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (2 FEB 2003 2:54am)
I can't help but feel that some of those describing Myst as some sort of ho-hum game that didn't dramatically shake up the adventure game world, didn't have interaction, and was more derivative of it's predecesors than a breakthru didn't experience Myst when it first came out (ie. they played it years or more after it was introduced).
I swear by my life that I played Myst when it first came out and yes, that was the way I felt. I admit, at first it seemed very different and exciting but I soon realized there was nothing new: an average adventure that focused on puzzles with no inventory nor characters. The gameworld was nice but that wasn't enough - Myst never grew on me. And if Myst did shake up dramatically the genre it was only because it provided a new and exciting format: simple and friendly adventuring that appealed a lot of people not familiar with the genre. That's the secret behind the success of Myst - nothing else.
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