| 31 JAN 2003 at 11:26pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hi,
Very good thread, Rael.
Myst is my favorite "game". I'm also a bit active in the Myst series fan community; I post on a board occasionally, and I've played all the Myst series games (well, mostly, I used a walkthrough extensively for Riven, I don't like Riven as a game). I'm looking forward to Uru (the previous working title was Mudpie, also Myst Online) a multiplayer game with a release date of late 2003. I'm a fan, but I do have some criticisms of Myst.
First of all, I'm not sure the Miller brothers (the developers) wanted to create an adventure game. They wanted to create an immersive world you could lose yourself in, and they wanted to tell a story within the world. They wanted you to discover the story (and, more importantly, the backstory), slowly, as you wandered around the world. They didn't want the world to have a "game" feel. They selected the format of puzzle solving to advance you in the adventure and the story, but I think that's because they had to select something, the closest they could come to you being an adventurer and a discoverer within the world.
Here's a quote from the Myst Masterpiece Edition User's Manual - "The entire game was designed from the ground up to draw you in with little or no extraneous distractions on the screen to interfere with the feeling of being there." I think that explains why there is no inventory. I suspect that inventory would have been considered too "game like" for Myst.
As for the interface, the Miller brothers first game was a kid's game. I suspect it was important to make the interface very simple, no special keys to remember, no inventory, nothing except wandering around (pointing and clicking), picking things up (clicking), and setting a few switches and dials (more clicking). They also wanted you to believe that the world existed outside the game, hence the books, brief glimpses of other characters, that sort of thing. I think that's why you play as "you", not just first person, but as yourself. Unlike Amerzone, where you play as a journalist, there is never any mention of who you are, in any of the games, your gender, avocation, where you come from, none of that. That is also why full motion video is used; when you see a person, it is supposed to be as "life like" as possible. It's also why they originally planned the game without music, just sounds. They added the music because Myst did not work without it.
Myst was designed to attract non-gamers, across a wide spectrum of people. I don't think they intended to slight the adventure gaming genre or community, but it wasn't a consideration for them. I'm not sure how successful they were, in what they tried to do. Many non-gamers found Myst (and, even more so, Riven) too hard to complete. I do remember reading a review of Myst, years ago, in Newsweek magazine (a US news magazine), long before I had a PC. I remember thinking - "I would like this!"
Does it work? I think the structure works well, for what it was intended to do. It works incredibly well for me. I love the game conceit of exploring different ages (worlds) through the linking books. The puzzles are fine, though too mechanical for my taste. I agree that some of the puzzles don't make sense. The good ones exist because you are finding something that was supposed to be hidden, or fixing something that was broken, but some puzzles are just "there", for no apparent reason. Is it a slow game, yes, but it is designed to be a slow game. What does not work at all is the ending - the game just ends.
I'll make another comparison to Myst, from the contemporary art world. Char Davies ( http://www.chardavis.com ) does interactive multimedia work - "virtual reality". You enter into Char's 3D world by putting on a head set and goggles. You control your progress in the 3D journey by breathing, and by leaning left or right. It's another slow journey. Now, I'm not saying this is exactly what the Miller brothers were trying to do – Char's work is uniquely personal, and there is no story in her work. The idea of existing in a world without having to do much manipulation is common to both. An interesting fact, Char Davies was trained as a painter, not unlike the pre-rendered images of 2D adventure games.
Do people who play Myst play other adventure games? Some of us do. I'm enjoying my experience with adventure games, let's see - Grim Fandango, Syberia, Morpheus, Amber, Obsidian, The Longest Journey, Rent a Hero, Full Moon in San Francisco, Post Mortem, Amerzone, to name a few. I enjoy third person games as well as first person. I admit a weakness for the beautiful game. I can get into a game that isn't drop dead gorgeous, but I have to work at it. I also want an extremely simple interface, nothing much to remember. Finally, I don't play adventure games for the puzzles, which might be a carryover from my Myst days.
Thanks for reading this.
Regards, mszv
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| 31 JAN 2003 at 11:30pm |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | wow......I didn't know everyone was going to make such long posts here.....
Myst was a 'different' type of game.....getting from one point to another, and using your brain to figure it out.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 12:25am |
karemanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 321
Joined: 10 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (31 JAN 2003 8:10pm)
the right idea would be a storyline and characters which evolve during the game... not one personality-less person (the player) wandering around moving levers
So you're saying that people who play Myst have no personality? .
Really liked your "golden rules", Petter. But I think it would be possible to create an adventure game without puzzles. A long time ago I played a text-adventure (don't remember the name) where you were a guy on vacation on a beach resort trying to deside whether or not to quit your job. There was also some sort of meter meassuring your contentment or something (like I said, it's a long time ago). As far as I remember, there were no puzzles persay (per-sey? per say? dammit where is a dictionary when you need one ). Anyway, I think the two first rules are the ones crucial for an adventure game, and the third one is only crucial for good adventure games.
So, can anyone think of any adventure games that don't follow Petter's rules?
Feel free to ignore this post.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 12:32am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By kareman (1 FEB 2003 12:25am)
As far as I remember, there were no puzzles persay (per-sey? per say? dammit where is a dictionary when you need one ).
It's spelled "per se". It's not English you know
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 12:44am |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Yes, per se is Latin...
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 12:58am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Did anybody think ole SirDave wouldn't wade into a good Myst discussion?
The 2 biggest disagreements I have about what's been written are the statements that 1) Myst isn't an adventure game and 2) it somehow besmirched adventure gaming from that point on by driving off potential adventure gamers and/or resulting in all sorts of bad games in the Myst format.
As far as number 1 is concerned, Emma, hit it on the nose- if Myst isn't an adventure game where does that leave all the text adventures (eg. Infocom) that preceded it. What Myst did is take text adventures to a new level and, in doing so, defined a new adventure game format. Whether, a whole bunch of better adventure games would have resulted if Myst hadn't existed is over-the-top speculation. It's far more possible that if Myst hadn't existed there would be far less adventure games today.
Re: number 2: Just who are all these potential adventurers that were driven off and, as I've asked elsewhere, what are all those awful Myst-clones that resulted. I have read virtually all the reviews of the Myst-like games and, by far the great majority are rated A to C+, or 3-5 stars out of 5.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:07am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | *sigh*
i am NOT defining adventures alright? adventures exist before i even knew what they were... but the fact that an adventure (as a game genre) has a way to be defined EXISTS... if someone releases, say, doom 4 and instead of having to nuke everything that moves you end up having to search for stuff and solve puzzles, them doom 4 is NO LONGER a shooter, and you don't need anyone to define what a shooter is - it's common sense... but if doom 4 is promoted as a shooter then entirely new gamers may think yeah that's a shooter and then come asking who are you (whoever that is) to define a shooter... so a game with puzzles and just puzzles, with no storyline, no interaction, no character development, but just puzzles, is simply....... a PUZZLE game (eg Dr Brain - and i wonder why noone considers that an adv.... maybe because it was not promoted that way?)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:13am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By kareman (1 FEB 2003 12:25am)
So you're saying that people who play Myst have no personality?
nah... just saying that they temporarily lose it while playing the game
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:15am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By sennebec (31 JAN 2003 8:42pm)
great example mrLipid...
i loved darkfall...
aya, what are you waiting for ...
i don't know... it was on my games-to-get-next list, but now i'm having 2nd thoughts! should i have 2nd thoughts?! not another myst clone pleeeeeeease
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:22am |
sennebecGuild Master
Posts : 3334
Joined: 15 NOV 2004
Location: US, maine
Status : Offline | if we were closer geographically, i would bring my copy of darkfall right over...
... and hang out awhile...
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:22am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | If you don't play Dark Fall, you'll never really know if you'd have liked it or not.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:25am |
dombrewerGuild Master
Posts : 3103
Joined: 19 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | Okay, good topic. Raising the temperature slightly amongst the community, methinks, but still very civilised, thankfully.
All I can add is that I am one of the many introduced to the concept of adventure gaming by the introduction of Myst and to claim it is not "a true" adventure game rings slightly false, as many of the previous contributers point out, who is to say what a true "adventure game" is. I've played quite a few games since 1995, many from before the advent of the game, and I've never had any doubts about the validity of the Myst series as "true adventures".
Adventure: "an unusual, exciting and possibly dangerous activity, journey, experience, etc., or the excitement produced by such activities"
Unusual? Yes, at the time. Exciting? Perhaps not, but certainly intriguing. Possibly dangerous? Absolutely. Journey. That's a key word. We are talking world exploration.
To reiterate a previous post - the lack of interaction and character made the game work, because you were the person on the islands, not you acting for another character, pretending to be someone else, be it Tex, Gabriel, Manny, Guybrush, whatever.
Coldness. Yes, it's mechanical, it's emotionally empty - but what do you expect from the set-up you are given? Rollicking good laughs? As the adventurer in person you only feel the emotion generated by your experience of the game. If it leaves you cold, then that's your experience, if you are fascinated and compelled then that's the emotion. At least it gives you the chance to decide for yourself how you feel about a situation - a freedom so often missing in scripted linear gameplay. What if you don't want to fall in love with x? What if he/she bugs the sh*t out of you? Not much you can do about that in a scripted emotional response.
It was dominated by its visual style. And? Early text based adventures were dominated by the word, not the visual, not because that was the pre-conceived format but because the visual at that stage in computer graphics evolution would have been ridiculous. It's almost the difference between reading a book and going to the movies. You go to one or the other for a reason, Myst happened to be a movie, not a novel.
I will not deny that Myst is a flawed work and there are numerous examples of better games, but it's seriously important and probably, dare i say it (oh, i dare) the only game that will be referenced as the typical 'adventure game' for many many years to come. I guess some hardcore adventure gamers, their genre usurped by this empty, pretty pretender, don't like that thought very much, but then deep down people always hate success, don't they?
Sorry, folks, long response..... (shut up! shut up!)
[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/detective.gif[/img][b]Playing:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/blahblah.gif[/img][b]Reading:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/whistle.gif[/img][b]Listening:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/indie.gif[/img][b]Watching:[/b]
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:28am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By sennebec (1 FEB 2003 1:22am)
if we were closer geographically, i would bring my copy of darkfall right over...
... and hang out awhile...
long distances show bigger determination though! but i accept registered mail too!
Jenny i totally agree with you... that's why i had nothing to say about it
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 1:49am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dombrewer (1 FEB 2003 1:25am)
Adventure: "an unusual, exciting and possibly dangerous activity, journey, experience, etc., or the excitement produced by such activities"
hmm.....sounds like life, doesn't it?
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 2:03am |
sennebecGuild Master
Posts : 3334
Joined: 15 NOV 2004
Location: US, maine
Status : Offline | that reminds me of justG's signature :
"life's an adventure,
anybody got a walkthru ?"
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 2:10am |
dombrewerGuild Master
Posts : 3103
Joined: 19 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | I must say doesn't sound much like my life at the moment - but then, isn't that the point of what we all do here?
We're escaping from our own world and exploring places and doing things we probably won't ever see or do.
Surprising that so many people who love to escape the world (or enrich their own) by reading a book or seeing a film don't think of gaming as a natural escape.....
We are the ones who have seen the light!! :
Enough philosophical soul-searching evangelism!
Bring on the adventures, real and cyber!
[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/detective.gif[/img][b]Playing:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/blahblah.gif[/img][b]Reading:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/whistle.gif[/img][b]Listening:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/indie.gif[/img][b]Watching:[/b]
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 2:18am |
RpauPrivate Detective
Posts : 439
Joined: 15 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Myst... I would really like to grab my claws in this game. Everybody talks about that, but Could you believe me that I have never seen even the box of it? Here in Argentina the game seems to have dissapeared from the shelves...
Well, Maybe some day I would come across and old copy of it... You could be sure that I will anwer the topic this day!!!
“even the lover of the myth is in a sense a lover of wisdom, for the myth is composed of wonders”
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 12:12pm |
| Deleted User | Monkeybone wades in! A bit late, as always. The curse of living in the UK...
Designing a game like Myst is dead-easy (another controversial statement ).
Then how come it took four years to develop Riven? Fill it in with lush graphics, a storyline to die for, costume design, good acting, puzzles galore that aren't all mechanical, reading material that flies off the page, literally...
They're frickin' adventures people! Myst was more like a puzzle game, granted, but part of the puzzle was working out if you could trust Cirrus and Achenar! There was a story! You had to make choices! As for, Riven, it was just a msaterpiece of games design and graphical prowess that still holds up to day and has yet to be superceded in the 1st person adventure stakes.
AYA - do yourself a favour and buy Darkfall. Sure, it's a first person adventure (or "Myst Clone" as some people like to call it) full of mystery, spookiness, good puzzles that aren't mechanical and a thrilling storyline. Plus your character has one, even though you can't see him and he doesn't speak....
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:06pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (1 FEB 2003 12:11pm)
AYA - do yourself a favour and buy Darkfall. Sure, it's a first person adventure (or "Myst Clone" as some people like to call it) full of mystery, spookiness, good puzzles that aren't mechanical and a thrilling storyline. Plus your character has one, even though you can't see him and he doesn't speak....
now wait... it's a different thing to say a 1st person adventure and a different thing to say "myst clone"... i mean come on first person advs exist before myst was even a thought in their designers head! Psygnosis' Chrono Quest for example [1988] - and that was an ADVENTURE (good or bad doesn't matter) not a PUZZLE game... but i guess it's just myst's "wrong idea" i was talking about again.... 1st person advs = myst clones? : *sigh*..... so i'll probably get darkfall anyway
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 1 FEB 2003 at 3:11pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Hmmmm. I dont really think Darkfall is a Myst clone at all.
But it is a great game.
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