| 31 JAN 2003 at 6:32pm |
SnowmanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 309
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I actually just got in to adventure games, and in fact computer games in general, when Myst came out. Now, for myself, I can say that all the hype surrounding Myst made me steer clear of it for quite a long time and in fact I didn't buy it until a few years later when I saw it somewhere for $10.
My question to you Rael is: What exactly was it about Myst that repelled old gamers. I've heard this before and I'm just curious, as I can only supply a newbies view at the time.
(Maybe this will get the ball rolling on this topic!)
Never do anything half-assed, always use your WHOLE ass!!
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 6:57pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I immediately ran out and bought MYST when it first came out, couldnt wait to play, but.......I just couldnt
get into it, not because I thinks its a bad game, just not my cup of tea, to quiet and mechanical for my taste.
I agree with all of Raels answeres to his questions except 5.
Why do you think it was one of the worst things to happen to the genre Rael?
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 7:41pm |
Freddie_PharkasSpace Cadet
Posts : 114
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Status : Online | 1. Is Myst a good game?
Not necessarily - perhaps.
Myst has demonstrated itself as a quality title in numerous ways:
a) I loved it! the most important factor for my personal assessment)
b) Tons of people bought it - While not necesarily the end all be all of standards, I'm sure a fair portion of the millions of people who bought this game liked it and isn't that what its all about? not according to Ragnar Tornquist, but I'll save that for another day)
c) It broke new ground - I am strongly in favor of anyone who has the courage to try something new. The creators of Myst did so and created a whole new genre of game which many adventure gamers have a strong opinion about, good or bad.
d) It brought non-adventure gamers into the fold. - Expanding our ranks is surely a good thing. I'm sure a few people who tried Myst as their first forray into adventure have stuck with the genre and discovered the other things it has to offer.
e) Darn it looked good.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 7:48pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (31 JAN 2003 6:14pm)
This is my proposal: a civilized discussion about Myst and how it affected the adventure genre.
but isn't this [img]users.panafonet.gr/pantex/furious.gif[/img]THE HOT SPOT[img]users.panafonet.gr/pantex/furious.gif[/img]
1. Is Myst a good game?
a good PUZZLE game? probably yes... a good ADVENTURE? no - not even an adventure
2. Is Myst a bad game?
a bad ADVENTURE? Definately... a bad PUZZLE game? not at all
3. Did Myst attract new gamers to the genre?
Absolutely - giving them the wrong idea of the genre though
4. Did Myst repel old gamers?
Absolutely
5. Was Myst one of the worst things that happened to the genre?
Definitely yes... Definately
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:00pm |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | I most certainly agree with Aya_Brea!!!
Myst WAS NOT an adventure let alone a good one (as one wise man said before
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:01pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (31 JAN 2003 7:47pm)
3. Did Myst attract new gamers to the genre?
Absolutely - giving them the wrong idea of the genre though
And what would the right idea of the genre be?
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:02pm |
SnowmanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 309
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | But Aya Brea, Rael....How or why did it repel old gamers?
Never do anything half-assed, always use your WHOLE ass!!
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:04pm |
sennebecGuild Master
Posts : 3334
Joined: 15 NOV 2004
Location: US, maine
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (31 JAN 2003 6:14pm)
Uuuuhhh aaaahhhh, it IS hot in here - good thing I brought my tanning lotion
ahhhh... yes... i LOVE the heat
sooo... please explain the following :
3. Did Myst attract new gamers to the genre?
Absolutely.
5. Was Myst one of the worst things that happened to the genre?
Definitely yes.
this sounds like a contradiction... ???
how can a game attract new gamers to the genre but also be the worst thing to happen to the genre...
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:08pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By sennebec (31 JAN 2003 8:04pm)
this sounds like a contradiction... ???
how can a game attract new gamers to the genre but also be the worst thing to happen to the genre...
read my answer to #3
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:10pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (31 JAN 2003 8:00pm)
And what would the right idea of the genre be?
the right idea would be a storyline and characters which evolve during the game... not one personality-less person (the player) wandering around moving levers
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:13pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Snowman (31 JAN 2003 6:32pm)
My question to you Rael is: What exactly was it about Myst that repelled old gamers.
Because it's radically different from previous adventure games. For some people this was bad and for some people this was good. Myst wasn't the first adventure without characters and neither the first-person adventure but it was terribly lacking interaction. The scenes were good looking but there wasn't too much to do with them. No inventory. Minimal interface. For people who wanted to be immersed "fastely" in the game, this was a blessing.
And this is what (I think) Aya_Brea is saying: Myst didn't show new gamers the beauty of adventure games. I could really argue that interaction is one of the core elements of adventures.
Why do you think it was one of the worst things to happen to the genre Rael?
Whether Myst was a good adventure game or not, it proven itself as a convenient format to design adventure games. A lot of companies started designing the so-called "Myst-clones" with minimal effort which caused a saturation in the genre and repelled both newer and older gamers. Designing a game like Myst is dead-easy (another controversial statement ).
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:18pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (31 JAN 2003 8:12pm)
And this is what (I think) Aya_Brea is saying: Myst didn't show new gamers the beauty of adventure games
exactly... plus making some of them still having not experienced a real adventure
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:24pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (31 JAN 2003 8:10pm)
the right idea would be a storyline and characters which evolve during the game... not one personality-less person (the player) wandering around moving levers
So what does that make Dark Fall?
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:29pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (31 JAN 2003 8:23pm)
So what does that make Dark Fall?
haven't played it yet
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:40pm |
sennebecGuild Master
Posts : 3334
Joined: 15 NOV 2004
Location: US, maine
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (31 JAN 2003 8:07pm)
read my answer to #3
3. Did Myst attract new gamers to the genre?
Absolutely - giving them the wrong idea of the genre though
ok, i gotcha... but...
i liked this wrong idea...
rael said:
Because it's radically different from previous adventure games.
i can understand that... we come to expect certain things and when someone throws you a curve like myst after playing the older adventures that would tend to rub one the wrong way... kinda like me playing GK2 and loving it, and then GK3... blech
Myst didn't show new gamers the beauty of adventure games.
there was plenty of beauty in this game for me... remember this was my first game... ever...
and i came back searching for more and have been thoroughly enjoying myself discovering all that this genre has to offer...
1st person, 3rd person
linear, non-linear
cartoon, FMV
2D, 3D
i love all the different aspects of the genre...
i don't believe that an adventure should have to be any particular way...
and myst will always have a place in my heart...
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 8:43pm |
sennebecGuild Master
Posts : 3334
Joined: 15 NOV 2004
Location: US, maine
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (31 JAN 2003 8:23pm)
So what does that make Dark Fall?
great example mrLipid...
i loved darkfall...
aya, what are you waiting for ...
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 9:12pm |
Freddie_PharkasSpace Cadet
Posts : 114
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Another reason I liked Myst (and its projeny) - It made me discover that I LOVE puzzle games. Every so often its nice not to worry about wading through conversation trees, or learning about characters. I find this actually increases the "immersion" factor for me when done well.
Is Myst an "Adventure" game??? Who am I to say. I can, however, say that it was a fun game, in a fascinating environment that I was able to get lost in. It had enough of a story to carry my interest in solving the puzzles and learning more of the story. I think the solitary nature of the game is actually a strength.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 9:15pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I think of the Myst series as a puzzle game set in beautiful surrounds. Also Myst clones. Not an adventure game in the true sense.
If you consider moving from one spot to another as adventure then so be it or the slight blink of the eye of a storyline.
The first Myst ending was so bad. Second one enjoyed a bit more. The last one though, in my mind, a puzzle game not an adventure game I liked better because of the actor who they had wronged. But then he is a very good actor and I can never remember his name and he made me feel sad for him.
Did it attract new gamers to adventure?
Perhaps, but at the same time it probably pushed them into another genre if they based adventure games on this project.
What do you think of with the word 'adventure'? o you think a world of puzzles and little or no interaction? I don't think that way (awkward sentence but didn't want MichalN to see the preposition I almost put at the end of the sentence.)
Did it repel old gamers?
Have no idea.
Was it a good game?
Yes, but not an adventure game.
Was it a bad game?
By my definition of a true adventure game, Yes it was a bad game.
Haven't a clue.
Was Myst worst thing.............................?
In what sense? That new gamers would not try another adventure game because they had been deceived as to what is an adventure game? Not saying much about taking another chance.
Doubt that it caused the genre to lose old gamers, they would be smart enough, that if they didn't like it, to go onto another adventure game.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 9:26pm |
| Deleted User | Isn't the truth that what gave adventures their bad name wasn't Myst, but the countless so-called "Myst clones" that tried to leech of Myst's success?
I don't think it's fair to blame Myst for this. It was a revolutionary game, and it was a great success. If you ask me, it was a very good game as well.
Sure, you can heave arguments against my "revolutionary" statement above, but with this I don't just mean in a technological and artistic way (one can argue that other games already had Myst elements in them) but because it combined this with very lucky timing and a number of other elements. The Multimedia hype was at its peak at the time of Myst's release, and it was sold together with many new PC's (I particularly remember Compaq) as a showcase product for amazing new devices like CD-ROM and 16-bit digital sound cards. This resulted in Myst being the first game played by lots of people (lots of people new to computers started buying PC's and Macintoshes at this time) so it became a game to relate everything else to.
I do think that Myst is a true adventure game, and not a puzzle game though. It DID have an interesting story, it was just told in a very different way. And the gameplay was centered around exploration and mechanical puzzles instead of inventory puzzles and dialogue, but so what?! I found the puzzles greatly designed and challenging just at the right level. I love a game where you have to keep notes and draw diagrams etc. And it was the first game where I encountered puzzles related to sound and music, which was very interesting.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 9:34pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Oh, Aya is defining adventure games...
I think Myst is definitely adventure. There is a story, there are puzzles...ok, there are no characters. Do not think I want to defend Myst...
1. Is Myst a good game?
I don't like "good" and "bad" - especially not in current political affairs, hey, this is the Hot Spot, right?. I would say, it's a game I didn't like, because it felt empty. I hate musical challenges, because I'm at total loss with them. This was the stopper in that game for me. I never played any further than this point. This has not made Myst a "bad" game for me. I didn't really like it from the beginning.
2. Is Myst a bad game?
See my previous reply. It's not a game made for me.
3. Did Myst attract new gamers to the genre?
It certainly did. The subgenre it created is still popular and attracting new gamers. The fact that many veteran adventure gamers disliked it, because they are old-fashioned, plus the fact that it sold a huge amount of copies is proof that it must have attracted many new players.
4. Did Myst repel old gamers?
Yes, I think new technologies, ideas and subgenres always repel large parts of the community. I further think you can transfer this concept to things not related to gaming in general.
5. Was Myst one of the worst things that happened to the genre?
No. It was a development towards a sub-genre which has potential which was not played out fully by Myst. Without Myst, though, the adventure genre may have lacked an additional direction, a new source which produced many offsprings.
The argument that Myst put off potential adventure gamers does not stand firmly, because
a) it attracted many new gamers regardless the opinion of veterans which would be similar to, "New adventure gamers? Myst is no adventure game!"
b) as well as it may have put off newcomers, it might have led them to trying some different adventure games, which made them fans
c) if it never had existed there would have been no rise in adventure gamers more than usual, but almost certainly less than actually was the case
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 10:03pm |
LagavulinPrivate Detective
Posts : 475
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | ??? ??? ??? > > > ??? ??? ???
Aya_Brea wrote: plus making some of them still having not experienced a real adventure
??? Sorry but who are you to judge what a REAL adventure is ???
You must understand that, for example an Adv game is totaly different depending on who is playing it.
Not the story,context, puzzels and so on, but how the person/s experience the game.
When I first played Myst and after that Riven, I truly thought of them as real adventures. And then when playing Tex M games I also felt it to be really good adventures.
Keep up the spirit folks!
Adventures For Ever
FOR THE MOMENT I AM PLAYING ON MY Win 7&&&&Recently Played&& ark Fall Lost Souls,Outcry,SH vs A Lupin,Tales of Monkey Island,Still Life 2,Sinking Island,Pandora Directive (RP),The Lost Crown
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 10:11pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I THINK YOU ARE ALL WAY WRONG!!!!
(hehe...kidding...just wanted to enter the HOT SPOT in style)
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 10:42pm |
emmaPrivate Detective
Posts : 525
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | If the issue is, that Myst isn't a REAL adventure I beg to differ. It very much is the way almost all text adventures were as I've understood it, in build-up and approach to problems. And text adventures would be the first and most important stone to the adventure gaming wall, no?
A bit curious, how many of those who dislikes Myst feels that adventures need a change? That it's acceptable to boost sales with, for example, a bit of action in it? This to me personally, would be a MAJOR step away from "real" or "true" adventure gaming, but seems on the whole be acceptable to the average AG-gamer, whereas Myst certainly kept the tradition, even brought back some of the text adventuring elements in the genre. It's contradictory of course.
It can't be that a REAL adventure is what somebody subjectively decides, I'm thinking, most of us I suspect agree to that. Then how to argue this dilemma? Really? What are the basic rules that you can bend and break to take adventuring further? Which rules are a no-no to touch? Probably as many opinions as there are gamers, impossible somehow to make a statement that is Absolute and Correct under these circumstances.
For Myst being a game that hurt this genre in any way is an exaggeration by leaps and bounds as I see it. Myst's arrival didn't mean there wasn't any room for "traditional" adventure games. Myst didn't STEAL any potential gamers, it brought in new ones. Are we looking to blame somebody for the decline of the genre? Well, it can't be the one game that brought in gamers. And I doubt very much that "traditional" AG-lovers, stopped playing games out of principle because Myst was put on the Adventure shelves in the stores. There simply weren't enough game makers out there, to cater those who liked 3d person games better, and that can hardly be the responsibility of those who made Myst, right? (I'm using past tense because it certainly would seem that it's changing, yay!)
Well, my 2 cents, as people often write and that I have no idea what it means or come from!
[URL=http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=emma]My DVDs[/URL] | [URL=http://www.adventuregamers.com/]AdventureGamers[/URL] | I haven't lost my mind, I've got a backup on a disc somewhere.
|
| 31 JAN 2003 at 11:00pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | As I said before, Myst wasnt a game for me, but I have to agree with Emma on the matter of it bringing in more
adventurers, so many people that I have talked to say this was thier first game, and that after they played it, they were hooked on adventures. And to me it IS an adventure game, just not MY kind of adventure game.
|
