| 1 SEP 2006 at 5:50am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (1 SEP 2006 4:41am)
Given the choice between STEAM and Starforce, I'll take STEAM.
Of course. I would always pick the orange over the apple any day.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 9:49am |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | The Steam client has a habit of 'forgetting' settings. I always leave mine as thin list with only 'My Games' showing. Whenever the Steam client is updated (which is very frequently), it always seems to goes back into 'you really need to line our pockets with more cash' mode with adverts - in fact today the default presentation was expanded and the default tab was 'Store'.
Why do people love Steam?
It patches their games for them - like that was 'oh so hard' before? And it raises another question/point - just *why* are these games being patched so much? Surely it's better to QA a product properly and never patch it like [previous generation] console games. The whole PC gaming experience is marred by incomplete/beta/incompatible patches?
You can simply download your games again when you [accidental] format your disk - depends what speed/how stable your Internet connection is compared to the accessibility of your game media. Personally speaking I could have reinstalled WinXP and all my pre Steam games quicker than I unencrypted the HL2 [collectors edition] *media* when it was installed. A joke or what! Also raises the issue of cost - some people are on limited bandwidth packages (much more prevalent these days) and so downloading adds to the cost of the game itself. Also just should Valve add the overall 'mis-'use of the Internet? Their action alone has added considerably to the use of the Internet. ISPs have to pay considerable sums to keep their networks afloat under the load. Someone has to pay and yes that person is you downloading for 'free' with A/FUP's added to the T&C's of many contracts, etc.
Support the developer directly - that's [mainly] a positive thing in my opinion. However Valve probably have the financial support and backing that would dig a small 3rd world country out of poverty. Digital distribution to them is simply more money. Digital distribution to a small outfit (one person/small team) would probably mean the difference of surviving or not.
Whilst I don't object to online delivery per se, Valve has set some quite disturbing precedents - both online and physical media copy protection, forced updates, online play only, facilities that don't quite work (friends for example), significant advertising, court case vs Sierra, high pricing of content. Some of these have been toned down (or perhaps they now work as they were expected to?). In order to remove the middle man [the Publisher] and take a larger slice of the pie themselves they have themselves become a [online] publisher for a number of titles. I wouldn't have any clue about the numbers but I know it wouldn't be free for people to publish a game using Steam...
Is Steam evil, no. Is what Valve has done with Steam evil, not really. There's not really much that is unethical either. A lot of the Steam hatred is founded on real issues. Problem is there's as much to like as there is to hate. Neither side will win a contest of who's actually correct.
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 12:10pm |
| Deleted User | I didn't buy HL2 for one simple reason: STEAM.
Why? Because it's an offline game and there is no reason for an offline game to connect itself to the internet other than to bind the custumer to the company and gather as many information as possible about him and his computer and installed software. In other words, systems like STEAM are heavy spyware. Also since a purched game is bound to my account I can not take my legal right and sell it someday. I like it when a game has an online-update function in its menu but for an automated system like STEAM you need to really trust the company. And the funny thing is I used to play World of Warcraft and still play Guild Wars and sometimes Joint Operations, they, just because they are online games, need an internet connection and in the WoW case the company gets a lot of data. However this is somehow "okay" since after all, and I said it before, WoW is an online game and I decided freely to accept the terms to be able to play it but - Half Life 2 is a different case in my opinion.
Also there is another issue. when I play an online game I know that one day I won't be able to play it anymore when the servers are shut down. But an offline game like Half Life 2? How about it when Valve gets bancrupt one day or in ten or so years removes Half Life 2 from the Steam system or stops Steam for whatever reason? How am I supposed to play the game(s) in case I want to replay my personal classics one day? I have game boxes here from the mid 80ies. Sure I don't play them often but every few years I'm in the mood to get one of my old homecomputers from the basement and load up C64 or Amiga Classics.
A word about Starforce. I heard so many rumours about how bad it is but nobody I know including myself ever had an problems with it. I agree it's a bit annoying to have to reboot after installing it and also to wait several seconds up to a minute each time you start a game but else it never caused any troubles.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 1:17pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ogre (1 SEP 2006 12:10pm)
A word about Starforce. I heard so many rumours about how bad it is but nobody I know including myself ever had an problems with it. I agree it's a bit annoying to have to reboot after installing it and also to wait several seconds up to a minute each time you start a game but else it never caused any troubles.
I had a problem with it. I installed Xpand Rally and Starforce didn't like something it found on my system. (No one at tech support in Moscow was either able or willing to reveal what might be causing the problem.)
When I rebooted, the system was in MS-DOS Compatibility Mode, effectively useless until the Starforce drivers were removed. I had a copy of the Starforce removal tool, but Starforce removed it when it installed itself. Starforce is not just annoying. For some people, like me, it's a system killer.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 2:59pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Update: all the STEAM© account demos have been removed from STEAM© customers' "My Games" list. *All* of them (at the time of this writing) - the PopCap demos, the Half-Life 2 demo, the Counterstrike demo, and on and on.
So now, if a person wants to play a demo of a STEAM© game, you locate its "page" in the STEAM© "store" and click install. It will then appear in your "My Games" list.
Apparently STEAM© was listening to the myriad of complaints it was getting from its subscribers. Here's a few comments:
"My mother freaked when she saw the list of games in "My Games"! She thought I had used her credit card and bought them all! She yelled at me real hard because she said she didn't want all those games cluttering up her computer too."
"I'm happy the demo's are out of our games list."
"I think its much better with all those demos removed."
"Good work Steam! They were becoming more than just irritating!"
What I also didn't understand until now is that STEAM© is not only the digital content delivery and maintenance system of just Valve games, but any third-party game development company can hire STEAM© to distribute their games, demos, patches, etc. PopCap is a third-party game development operation, for example.
For independent developers of Adventure games, this might be a good thing. The main advantage being that their game would reach a lot of gamers that are subscribers of STEAM©.
But on the other hand, I imagine that STEAM© would want a sizable chunk o' change to list and distribute their games and that not too many of those subscribers are particularily interested in Adventure games.
As I mentioned, I have no problem paying (via PayPal, sending a check, calling a number, etc.) to download an Adventure game I want to play. I just don't see having a STEAM© account as something necessary to have in my gaming life and on my hard drive.
I can purchase and manage the games I like to play quite well without STEAM©, thank you.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 3:15pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mark (1 SEP 2006 2:59pm)
As I mentioned, I have no problem paying (via PayPal, sending a check, calling a number, etc.) to download an Adventure game I want to play. I just don't see having a STEAM© account as something necessary to have in my gaming life and on my hard drive.
I can purchase and manage the games I like to play quite well without STEAM©, thank you.
Unless the title you are interested in is a STEAM exclusive, like The Ship, there is no reason for you to have a STEAM account.
I suspect, however, as companies attempt to further reduce the cost of their operations, including physical production and distribution, online-only will become more and more attractive. Have you noticed that both Legacy Interactive and Her Interactive are starting to use online distribution?
STEAM, at present, is the most fully realized version of this technology. It'll be interesting to see if it prospers or, like the time-limited DivX DVD, fades away.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 3:31pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (1 SEP 2006 3:15pm)
STEAM, at present, is the most fully realized version of this technology.
And seems to be the most intrusive, too. :-/
Originally Posted By MrLipid (1 SEP 2006 3:15pm)
It'll be interesting to see if it prospers or, like the time-limited DivX DVD, fades away.
I bought a fantastic DVD player recently - and the very reason I bought it is because it plays DivX format.
Well, that, and that it's also Region-Free. :
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 3:41pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mark (1 SEP 2006 3:31pm)
I bought a fantastic DVD player recently - and the very reason I bought it is because it plays DivX format.
Ah, there is some confusion here. I meant DIVX, not DivX. DIVX was a failed effort by Circuit City to offer DVDs that only played in special DVD players and would fail if the customer didn't pay an additional fee within 30 days.
DivX is a video codec.
Now I wonder what dIVx, DiVx, diVX, Divx, and divX will turn out to be.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 4:45pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (1 SEP 2006 3:41pm)
DivX is a video codec.
And DivX is doing quite well. They're not dead yet. Check out their latest.
By the way, the DVD player I bought was under $40 USD, the Philips DVP-642/37.
The Phillips DVP-642/37 will play any disc I place in its cup-holder. Plays any disc format; any codec. Progressive Scan; component outputs - a perfect low-cost all-around DVD console player.
It's a little over a year old since its release, but I love this little player. I highly recommend it. Very versatile; very affordable; very durable.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 6:17pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | I like Steam and wouldn't have much objetion to having every game I buy going through it. I must admit I'm a bit of a new-tech-loving Valve-hugger, but I have had more problems with my anti-virus check (which starts checking for virï in the middle of games) than with Steam. I start it up and watch in delight updates and patches being downloaded, browse through the new games list and trailers. Download, play, erase - perhaps download again some day. If I'm at school I log in to my Steam account and can download and play any game I own already.
I shouldn't go as far, but it really sounds like bashing Steam mostly is done because:
1) It's new and like episodic gameplay you just have to pee on new things 'cos they're new and new is bad
2) Hardly anybody bothers to invest time into understanding what Steam is and exclaims silly things such as (no offence intended but still) 'it always starts when I start Windows', 'you need internet all the time to play the games', 'I can't download it because of my connection' and 'OMG Steam is controlling my mind and computer'.
3) People are paranoid because of the other software that 'intrudes' a private space and think Steam is going to comment on their choise of breakfast cerial.
4) They don't like online distribution, which is fair.
Steam is advancement in technology. In 'the new age' everything is going internet-digital. I can put my work online and it's the exact same image that you see as I see; there is no 'original painting'. With copying cd's everybody can just copy data over and over again. Eventually companies and (hopefully) copyright laws will change, bend or shatter (dramatic tone here).
It's unfair to accuse Steam of a slippery slope as well, it's been most dandy in it's choice of style and methods. Steam has nothing to do with companies charging you money for each time you view a movie. In a capitalistic world, it's as much their free choice to charge you for something like that as it is your free choice not to buy it anyway! If Steam makes unfair deals, fine, moan about it and stop buying things.
And, finally, it's easy to forget Steam is constantly updated. It is not a finished monolithic product, every time you start it it checks for updates. If there are a lot of games or demos, they get removed from the game list. Before, there wasn't a reason for a demo menu in the Store secion because there were enough demos. It updates as it is needed. It's easy to oversee, but I have no problem imagening future updates will make handling tons of games, perhaps removing games, hiding games, etc, very easy.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 9:33pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1464
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ogre (1 SEP 2006 12:10pm)
I didn't buy HL2 for one simple reason: STEAM.
Why? Because it's an offline game and there is no reason for an offline game to connect itself to the internet other than to bind the custumer to the company and gather as many information as possible about him and his computer and installed software. In other words, systems like STEAM are heavy spyware. Also since a purched game is bound to my account I can not take my legal right and sell it someday. I like it when a game has an online-update function in its menu but for an automated system like STEAM you need to really trust the company. And the funny thing is I used to play World of Warcraft and still play Guild Wars and sometimes Joint Operations, they, just because they are online games, need an internet connection and in the WoW case the company gets a lot of data. However this is somehow "okay" since after all, and I said it before, WoW is an online game and I decided freely to accept the terms to be able to play it but - Half Life 2 is a different case in my opinion.
Also there is another issue. when I play an online game I know that one day I won't be able to play it anymore when the servers are shut down. But an offline game like Half Life 2? How about it when Valve gets bancrupt one day or in ten or so years removes Half Life 2 from the Steam system or stops Steam for whatever reason? How am I supposed to play the game(s) in case I want to replay my personal classics one day? I have game boxes here from the mid 80ies. Sure I don't play them often but every few years I'm in the mood to get one of my old homecomputers from the basement and load up C64 or Amiga Classics.
A word about Starforce. I heard so many rumours about how bad it is but nobody I know including myself ever had an problems with it. I agree it's a bit annoying to have to reboot after installing it and also to wait several seconds up to a minute each time you start a game but else it never caused any troubles.
lol, valve is not spyware.
It doesn't "secretly" get your info and steal your megahurtz. Valve takes surveys from time to time (IE they have taken some about people's computers, like what graphics card/processor you use, etc and others) and then they even show the results if you want to see what many other people showed. You are able to choose to do the surveys or not.
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| 1 SEP 2006 at 9:43pm |
BazzaLBPrivate Detective
Posts : 512
Joined: 27 AUG 2005
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mark (1 SEP 2006 3:31pm)
I bought a fantastic DVD player recently - and the very reason I bought it is because it plays DivX format.
Well, that, and that it's also Region-Free. :
I bought a TViX from DVICO (Taiwanese). http://www.videoguys.com.au/scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=1234
You put your own hard disk in it (I have 400gb) and it plays just about any AVI (including xvid/divx). Plays ISO DVD dumps with menu navigation. It has a fast USB 2.0 interface so I can dump video to it quickly from my PC and I connect it to my TV via Component. It even has Upscaling to 720p/1080i@60hz (no 50hz support at those resolutions though unfortunately). It plays all manner of formats including m2v.
Its a great convenience.
I did buy a SAMSUNG DVD player that played Divx, but it seemed rather flakey on playback and quite often froze. Its error correction wasn't particularly robust I guess.
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 12:30am |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (1 SEP 2006 6:17pm)
... Fanboy alert
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 12:41am |
Melanie68Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 83
Joined: 20 JUL 2006
Status : Online | This is probably a Duh! question but what kind of connection do you need if you use Steam? I have dial up at home (I get free internet dial up service through school). I don't have plans on getting broadband until I'm finished with school and have moved and settled somewhere. Could you use Steam with a dial up connection?
Thanks.
What I resist, persists and speaks louder than I know.
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 12:52am |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Of course you 'could' but no one in their right mind should ever recommend it. Downloading will take forever! I've got a Hl1, a 3rd part mod, HL2 and HL2 DM + Lost Coast map and my Steam directory in 7GB. Even accounting some will be/is better compressed for delivery you're still looking at days & days of downloading.
Online distribution of large scale (anything CD sized and above) games is really targetted towards broadband services.
If you have the retail disks then it'd help but only to an extent. Valve continually patches Steam and games hosted on it so downloads could be frequent. Playing the games online using a modem whilst supported is a painful experience when pretty much most players are broadband equipped thus leaving you with a signifiant disadvantage
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 1:23am |
Melanie68Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 83
Joined: 20 JUL 2006
Status : Online | Thanks. I think I was expecting that answer.
What I resist, persists and speaks louder than I know.
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 2:56am |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I don't pirate my games and I don't want any form of copy protectiion.
I will even pay extra so I don't have to hastle with it.
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 11:11am |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Reckless (2 SEP 2006 12:29am)
Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (1 SEP 2006 6:17pm)
... Fanboy alert
As someone who looses CD's on the fly, likes to buy something on a whim using a credit card and as a future game designer, how could I not be a fan of Steam
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 11:32am |
| Deleted User | I have never bothered to study Steam's options. I suppose I should check it and optimize it for my preferences. I recently bought Half-Life 2: Episode One over Steam, and it was extremely convenient. It was the first Steam-powered game I payed for directly. Previously all I owned was Half-Life 2, which I got with my graphics card.
Steam has its pros and cons, and a broadband connection is a requirement for acceptable performance so it's not for everyone. Plus, there is the risk of hackers stealing your account, service problems on their side etc. But I have no major complaints to make.
Except one
When I first downloaded Half-Life 2 there were texture problems after about a third of the game. This was because some of the game files had been corrupted during transfer. The solution to the problem was to delete the files in question (I followed the instructions of a forum post about this problem, which happened to many people at the time) and the next time you tried to start the game it would detect the missing files and re-download them automatically. The same thing seems to have happened with my Episode One files, but at a much smaller scale. I noticed some missing/incorrect textures at a few places in the game.
Why doesn't Steam check for you that your downloaded game is not corrupted after download and fix this automatically for me? I know of the option of burning the games on a CD/DVD for backup, but I don't want to do this until I can guarantee that I have all files intact, and I can't ever be sure of that just by failing to find any errors in the games. I suspect this problem has a solution though and I'm simply not aware. So, does anyone know?
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 1:37pm |
| Deleted User | Ok to all the STEAM fanboys out there... don't cry for mommy when your legally purchased STEAM games won't run in 10 years or so when you want to replay them...
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 2:21pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ogre (2 SEP 2006 1:36pm)
Ok to all the STEAM fanboys out there... don't cry for mommy when your legally purchased STEAM games won't run in 10 years or so when you want to replay them...
I think it's more likely that whatever version of Windows is on offer in ten years or so will be incompatible with games purchased today. Add to that all the changes we can expect to see in hardware and who knows whether a vintage 2006 game, whatever its original release format, will run.
It's also possible that the folks at STEAM, just before they go out of business, could release the code necessary to keep the old games running. No reason not to.
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| 2 SEP 2006 at 2:37pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1464
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ogre (2 SEP 2006 1:36pm)
Ok to all the STEAM fanboys out there... don't cry for mommy when your legally purchased STEAM games won't run in 10 years or so when you want to replay them...
Valve isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Also even if they do, there'd be a good chance they would release a patch/update in order for people to be able to play the games that require steam.
If not, you could fully expect hackers to take care of said problem, just like you can play old games today that require dos/emulation there'll be something in the future to replace steam if it's gone.
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| 3 SEP 2006 at 1:26am |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ogre (2 SEP 2006 1:36pm)
Ok to all the STEAM fanboys out there... don't cry for mommy when your legally purchased STEAM games won't run in 10 years or so when you want to replay them...
"And when your games stop working because this DirectX thing is no longer supported in 10 years..."
Not sure if that was ever said, though it's not even the same thing!
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| 3 SEP 2006 at 3:53am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jeroen Stout (3 SEP 2006 1:26am)
...it's not even the same thing!
Yes, just like STEAM© and Starforce, Jeroen. A lot of people think they are the same "thing" - but they aren't.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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