| 21 JUL 2006 at 1:57pm |
| Deleted User | First of all, all professional game companies rely heavily on feedback they mostly get via email from the players of their games. This is how games improve over time, good companies release patches to modify gameplay, this is especially common for strategy-, roleplay- and shooting-games. But they also use this informations for their future releases. Because for one simple reason: No game is perfect! There is always room for improvements!
I know a few adventure companies who do or used to come to forums like this, it also depends how much engagement the press- or public affairs guy shows. For example the ex press-guy from DTP always came to adventure forums and discussed issues and he even did so in their own forum.
Criticism IS important for game developers! Only when they get feedback they can improve their own works. And who can give better criticism as the own fans/players. Nobody really criticises a game he isn't interested in anyways.
As I painfully became aware here, especially in this forum, criticism isn't wanted, especially when the developer is involved and is aware and part of the discussion. Either indy developers or other members usually can't take it when someone or someones work is critisized no matter how reasonable the criticism is. As I said before, usually criticism is there to help the developer become better and improve. Here it usually is seen as a personal attack especially when its about indy games. This often results in a flame war and in my case nearly got me banned once. The result is I will never ever criticise ones work here again or tell anybody how he could improve his work, period. They can do whatever they want and bath in the illogic regards they get for their works no matter how bad it is. I just can't and won't force someone to improve himself...
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| 21 JUL 2006 at 5:37pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | I agree with Ogre. Developers who do not listen to criticism are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. A few posts can be more constructive than any sales number, because sales can only tell you how much people liked your title; they cannot tell you what they want to see more of and what they want to see improved.
Size-wise, I am the adventure-ish equivalent of an ant. I have only released one game, and a free amateur one at that. But here's my two cents anyway: I entered as many public discussions on my game as I could find. I could have chosen to ignore them, or reply to the positive ones only, but I was really hungry for any kind of feedback. I tried to discuss with people who did not like Other Worlds and listen to their reasons. Most of them were polite and I had no reason of being hostile to them. There is however a limit to what one can endure; I have little tolerance to personal attacks. To be clear,
Your game is bad
is acceptable.
You must be really stupid to release such a bad game
is not.
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| 21 JUL 2006 at 6:35pm |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Kori,
WRT Al Emmo specifically, it would appear that one beta tester wrote off what he considered irrelevant criticism of his 'baby' made by a few JA posters.
The actual result though, was that the developers reading that thread, implemented changes to the game's GUI as a result of that 'criticism' which would probably make the game better for end users.
It's unfortunate(?) - in a way - that the particular thread where this occurred 'belonged' to the beta testing OP. But, if the end result is a minor infringement of forum etiquette by going 'OT', does it ultimately matter?
If you look at that particular thread, you can see that the OP tried to 'own' all the comments and it backs up what you implied originally. Ownership belongs to the developers not backseat drivers!
Also, opinion is opinion, and the OP's opinion is NOT automatically absolute and irrevocable truth. Common bloody sense really.
Well, that's my take on the subject FWIW. LOL
I saw a similar situation on the Civilization Fanatics forum WRT Civ 3 / Civ IV.
The devs there really got involved with the community and the end result was quite frankly marvellous with a patch (or patches) that improved the game as a result of - lets be more constructive here - FEEDBACK.
Unfortunately, my take on the Civ IV situation is the complete opposite.
Apparently, as a result of NDA agreements that developers were forced to comply to, no DIRECT communication (at least publicly) was allowed between forum members and developers. At least as regards 'criticism' of the game. Result... shambles.
You'd really need to be 'in' to the whole frenzy at the time of Civ IV's release to appreciate all this, but some forum members went from avid fan boys to foaming at the mouth mad-dogs almost overnight what with all the technical problems with the game at that time. All this was just made worse by the complete NON communication going on by the developers!
I say, that developers would benefit greatly from direct communication on public forums if it was done properly.
You're bound to get idiots having a pop at you, but hopefully you can let that wash over you however hard it may be?
Just my 2p worth anyway.
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| 21 JUL 2006 at 9:16pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | I agree with Ogre, Alkis, and Wanderer on this.
You generally want feedback from people, but as Alkis pointed out, there is a difference between someone making a valid comment and someone just blatantly ripping on the developer. Someone saying they didn't like it because of reason A, B, or C is a valid comment. Someone saying they didn't like it because it's a comedy and they like horror is also valid, but kind of pointless. Someone ripping on the developer for wasting their time doing a comedy game and the poster wanting a horror game is just plain spam.
If you want to look at the other side of the coin, imagine that all you could get was people saying good things about your game, nothing bad. So there you sit as the developer and hear nothing while your sales are flat. You'd be sitting there with no clue as to what happened or what was wrong.
Like it or not, the developer is in control of what kind of feedback they get. They can lay the foundations for what can be a pleasant feedback session, or outright hostility. People love to give their opinions and there is nothing wrong with that. Essentially calling them stupid, their comments invalid, or jumping on any percieved negative comments as an outright attack is just going to cause problems as well as get others from the sidelines to jump in as well.
If you don't want anyone's opinions, then just release the game and stay off the forums. If you do want opinions, then put on your thickest skin and address them.
People do give their opinions on other things such as books, movies, and music as well. The problem is that those people are stars so to speak. You won't see Stephen King, Pink, or Tom Cruise addressing comments in a forum. That's not to say they aren't out there reading them.
I think as a gamer, the games forums are much more numerous and you tend to go to them more so their is that perception that other genres of entertainment don't get criticized as much. But you can go to the International Movie Database (IMDB) and read people's comments about movies, their ratings, etc. Same with Amazon.
This is really a golden age for companies to be in touch with their customers and get real feedback from the masses to potentially improve their products. I think it is something that should be embraced, not silenced.
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| 21 JUL 2006 at 10:42pm |
KoriSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 399
Joined: 27 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Ivinia
I know you probably did not mean for this sentence to sound the way it did, but it sure gave me a good laugh.
“feedback from the masses to potentially improve their products”
I am afraid I have read too many Ayn Rand books to have much faith in the masses, or anything they think. When you start listening to the masses, your media product turns into the lowest common denominator, an ass and tit show.
But... I know what you were trying to say.
But, I disagree, original ideas come from individuals, not masses. We indie developers are trying to make games with original ideas, not build Wal Marts.
No hard feelings here. I just thought it was funny. I personally think game players give TOO MUCH feedback. I think they should concentrate on enjoying the game as best they can, and less time playing backseat game developer. All I would every want to know from a game player is, did you enjoy the game, and if not, at what point did you start losing interest.
As for the internet, everyone wants to see the good the internet has done, disregarding the bad it has done. Nothing is one way. When you gain something, you have to give up something. It is a universal law. What if all this feedback, feeds on the tail of creativity of new ideas. You get a closed loop, and there will be no new ideas, no creativity.
Better to strike out on your own and fail (which you will most of the time), than listen to all this feedback from the masses. It's the only way new games can be created (or songs, or painting, or movies, etc.).
Kori
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| 22 JUL 2006 at 1:20am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Kori (21 JUL 2006 10:42pm)
Ivinia
I know you probably did not mean for this sentence to sound the way it did, but it sure gave me a good laugh.
“feedback from the masses to potentially improve their products”
I am afraid I have read too many Ayn Rand books to have much faith in the masses, or anything they think. When you start listening to the masses, your media product turns into the lowest common denominator, an ass and tit show.
But... I know what you were trying to say.
But, I disagree, original ideas come from individuals, not masses. We indie developers are trying to make games with original ideas, not build Wal Marts.
I agree and I probably should have elaborated more.
In regards to feedback from the masses, I was meaning things more along the lines of interfaces (Too complicated? Cumbersome?), ambiguous puzzles or clues, etc. As far as the game goes, yes, definitely the story, setting, plot, and challenges should be all in the hands of the developer. Basically listening to the masses about potential rough or frustrating spots in your game.
You can have your original interface, but if people think it's frustrating, you might want to revisit it.
On my game one person described the gameplay as frustrating. It was something I worried about because the game takes a little getting used to in order to get the hang of it. That person also suggested a change to it that might make it better. His suggestion didn't alter the game itself, but made things much smoother for the player. For me it was difficult to see this as I was so involved with the game that...well, let's just say you can't see the forest through the trees.
A fresh pair of eyes is always a good thing.
Better to strike out on your own and fail (which you will most of the time), than listen to all this feedback from the masses. It's the only way new games can be created (or songs, or painting, or movies, etc.).
Well, I would assume you already have your game 90% complete before you even entertain the thought of getting feedback. But what if you did strike out on your own and failed, only to find that you missed something incredibly easy to implement that would have greatly increased your sales? Especially if the incredibly easy thing might have come from feedback from the masses?
I think what we are talking about here are field tests. Letting the potential customers take things for a test drive, then come back with their impressions, not sitting in a room with a blank notebook and letting them control the entire game. Ultimately, it is the developers decision whether they should change things or not. Some ideas might be good and enhance things, other may not be.
I do know what you mean about too much feedback. I thought it was kind of funny when Alkis posted his screenshots for his upcoming game which clearly stated that "The graphics and fonts may change during production, especially the ones that involve the interface" and people gave all sorts of feedback on what was wrong with the graphics (BTW, Alkis, your locations look REALLY good). Some seemed a little nit-picky, especially at that early stage, but I thought Alkis was quite gracious with his responses.
There's this website out there called GameTunnel. They review indie games. One thing I've found interesting is that many of the games that score high on that site and are very innovative, just don't seem to sell very well. You have to ask yourself if you are running a business and trying to make a living or if you are doing it to release your creative side with crazy and original ideas. I think you are much better off trying to stay somewhat in the middle. Be crazy and creative, but don't go so far out of bounds that you only appeal to a small group of fans. Likewise, don't be so common to the point of being just like everyone else.
There's always that bigger idea you want to do down the road. That takes time and money. If you pursue that lone wolf strategy, you might find yourself never able to pursue further ideas.
Here's a link to what I consider good feedback and a professional developers response. Note how he respected everyone's opinions and no hostility broke out. He respected them, and they respected him. http://forums.adventuregamers.com/showthread.php?t=15774
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| 22 JUL 2006 at 3:14am |
KoriSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 399
Joined: 27 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I am afraid I have to agree with most of what you say.
But, I just think sometimes indie developers naturally want to show off their creation, and show too much in the name of feedback. What they really want is applause, not feedback. Others post their game for ad purposes, and sales, but they do it under the disguise of feedback. What they usually get is the hardcore backseat indie want-to-be game makers telling them how to make their game.
A better solution is to have some beta testers tell them what is wrong with their game and keep it off the forum. That is, if they can find some who will work with a indie developer.
Like I said, I agree with your points... it’s just that I have seen too many indie developers showing parts of their game on this forum for critical assessment and getting kicked around good by the posters.
Kori
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| 22 JUL 2006 at 4:52am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Kori (22 JUL 2006 3:14am)
But, I just think sometimes indie developers naturally want to show off their creation, and show too much in the name of feedback. What they really want is applause, not feedback.
Agreed. I think that (mostly) happens when they do not do a press release. Any developer can easily write to the site owners or moderators about their game and get it posted on the site as a new game announcement. It seems like many instead just register with the forum(s) and post their game announcement there. When you go about it that way, it begs for feedback. Not that its a bad thing, but if they can't handle the potential comments, they should have gone the other route.
A better solution is to have some beta testers tell them what is wrong with their game and keep it off the forum. That is, if they can find some who will work with a indie developer.
That's tougher to do than it sounds. Beta testers do get burned out and tired, so I think it's important to have different groups for different stages. You should also try to get testers that are outside of your immediate circle of family and/or lifelong friends.
I agree entirely about beta testers keeping things off the forums too. To me, they are part of the team. I've seen testers, (ok, a tester), after someone posted a comment about a game, they brought up that they had brought that issue up while testing but were essentially declined. Heck, I even watched them rip on the game and the beta testing team too! This made no sense to me. It just seems like there are privacy issues there and a serious breach of ethics.
When you do build up a great group of trustworthy testers, treat them like gold!
Like I said, I agree with your points... it’s just that I have seen too many indie developers showing parts of their game on this forum for critical assessment and getting kicked around good by the posters.
Agreed again. I've seen an indie post and get thoroughly ripped apart by someone who told them to stop wasting their time and make a 'true' adventure game. Grrrrr.....stuff like that irritates me.
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| 22 JUL 2006 at 12:47pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Kori (22 JUL 2006 3:14am)
But, I just think sometimes indie developers naturally want to show off their creation, and show too much in the name of feedback. What they really want is applause, not feedback.
You have to distinguish between Indie (someone who does something for himself after his usual work for his own pure enjoyment) and Indie (someone who is somewhere between amateur and poor pro and hopes to turn his spare time activity/hobby into something more) and Indy (someone who does something in his freetime but wants to come over as professional as possible to not look bad since his work is accessible by an audience outside his friends and family circle).
They all can ignore feedback that isn't applauding them, but the moment you publish something and make it available for others outside their friends and family circle they have to face the wind blowing into their faces at times. If they can't stand it they simply should not cry for attention and keep the stuff for themselves if it is so bad. I know some people just overrate themselves and their "baby" is always the best and just fantastic since they don't have a neutral look. Developers of movies and games know that and thats why anyone who wants to be any good listens to their audience! An artist who does art just for himself will never be successful, you have to make some compromises when you want to reach an audience. Why do you think art movies only appeal to a very small group of people? Because most art movies are just crap! But they are made in a way some intellectuals love them because they can distinguish themselves from the mass audience and declare them as an elite. No art movie maker however will ever be financially successful.
it[ch8217]s just that I have seen too many indie developers showing parts of their game on this forum for critical assessment and getting kicked around good by the posters. Kori
I fully agree with Alkis here:
Your game is bad
is acceptable.
You must be really stupid to release such a bad game
is not.
Even better when said why the game is bad, though.
But honestly if a developer can't even face the first kind of comment he should not talk about his baby in public nor show it around but keep it completely for himself. Because honestly saying, as a fan of something it's not really worth wasting my time for someone who doesn't want feedback in the first place.
I'm an editor, my articles are read by 100000 people every day. I do make mistakes. I try to be neutral but I talk about subjects. I get feedback from the readers and it's not always nice. Once I had to do an article about a guy who was a child molester and I didn't know that. The next day our office got flooded with protest mails and calls you can't believe it. You have to face that and stand your ground but also listen. If your skin is too thin for that you need another job. Whoever does something in public or for the public needs some kind of thick skin.
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| 22 JUL 2006 at 3:55pm |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Kori,
I agree about what you were saying about asking 'the masses' being likely to turn your product into some sort of LCD. But, that's likely to happen only at its inception?
Asking the public for input at that stage is more like asking for inspiration than feedback?
Presumably though, the original ideas are already at least partially realised by the time you want some sort of feedback from your users. It's then more a matter of fine-tuning, or honing rather than something more fundamental.
Let your creative juices flow!
Of course there's no guarantee that you'll succeed with your aims -whatever they may be- either with, or without, feedback from the public or beta-testers.
For example, I wonder what would have happened if the idea for Grim Fandango was actively discussed in public prior to its release and it received a lot of criticism due to lack of understanding?
Or, aside from the concepts, if the public had been asked about making it a point & click instead of keyboard controlled, would it have made it even more popular than it already is? Personally, I think there was too much pandering to FPS players at that time, presumably in a futile effort to win over more customers.
I remembered a recent adventure game where feedback was sought on adventure forums and appeared to be successful; namely Daemonica.
There was some criticism of the cliched Mediaeval English voiceover by a couple of sites -perhaps useful for Daemonica 2- insufficient herbs (essential for game progress), and difficulty of reading some of the in-game text. The latter were both fixed in a subsequent patch. I thought that was a pretty good outcome from that feedback.
You can also look at the Galactic Civilizations II forums for an even more interactive discourse between an Indie developer and the public. Quite amazing actually.
I doubt you're ever going to see someone like EA do that though. Too big for their own corporate boots IMHO.
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| 22 JUL 2006 at 5:09pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6694
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
An intelligent game creator should be able to quickly filter through any trivial, irrelevant or ridiculously off-the-wall feedback from any group he interfaces with and he should be able to control the process to a degree by qualifying respondents, asking pertinent questions, diplomatically steering the direction that discussions take, and gleaning useful information in a timely manner.
Gamemakers can also borrow heavily from well-established marketing researchers who use a variety of effective techniques to gain insights into what consumers want and do not want for virtually any product category in relationship to any target audience demographic. There simply is no need to reinvent that wheel and it really isn't all that complicated or expensive.
What amazes me about the interactive game industry is how reluctant many developers and publishers still seem to be when it comes to doing basic research. Product testing and marketing surveys are mainstays in virtually all other major consumer industries and I suspect that it's just a matter of time before gamecos reach the same level of sophistication.
I mean Hollywood studios and TV producers do all sorts of audience testing in advance and they use that feedback to make adjustments to their entertainment products all the time. So do food product testers, industrial designers and many others. They don't pretend to be mindreaders, so they tap directly into their target audiences at every level to gain insights into their changing tastes, trends, common complaints, etc. that simply cannot be attained through intuition alone. Basically, they learned that the best way to find out what people are thinking, what kind of foods they like, what gets them excited, what they want to watch, is simply to ask.
But there is a science to the whole interview / testing / polling / survey process and the raw data needs to be analyzed by qualified people. It can be very misleading because a poorly designed survey poll or badly written set of interview questions can be disastrous. That's why we have professionals who specialize in nothing else and they are remarkably affordable for even smaller companies.
Consumer focus groups can be set-up by third party research houses almost anywhere on earth these days via the web and they do not have to take a long time, nor do they usually require elaborate facilities. PCs, digital video, webconferencing, etc. have virtually eliminated travel expenses from the process and gamers are ripe and ready for this type of controlled testing. Afterwards, sharing the information is now a snap. So more game producers big and small ought to take advantage of these things rather than flying blind and basing key business decisions on pure guesswork.
As for the creative elements, they too can be tested but the initial inspiration still needs to be generated by a small group of talented individuals. While they should never completely abandon their own instincts and allow research to dictate every detail, like many other professional designers, they can benefit greatly from this kind of qualified advance information, ongoing consumer feedback and organized product analysis. They just need to accept it as a trustworthy (and necessary) source of audience input.
Cheers, Terry
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 11:05am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Constuctive criticism is always a good idea.
However what I've tended to see on this and other Adventure game forums is the smaller developers trying to communicate with their fan base and usually getting slapped in the kisser by a bunch in whingers.
The conversations quickly turn hostile and personal either between opposing "fans" or directly at the developer.
It's a wonder any of them still make games for us.
I think it is better to request feedback in a formal manner with a structured questionaire or a moderated chat with developers. Beta testing with a small group of trusted fans is also vital (but make sure you pick the right ones), but again the beta testers will suggest changes, but ultimatly it's your vision.In the end you as a developer have to have full control of your game, too many cooks spoil the broth, you need the courage to say no, stuff you lot i'm making it my way.
The only other option is to have a thick skin (which you need in any creative endevour) and anonymously read the forum posts and refrain from getting in the middle of it.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 12:40pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (23 JUL 2006 11:04am)
Constuctive criticism is always a good idea.
Yup ^^
However what I've tended to see on this and other Adventure game forums is the smaller developers trying to communicate with their fan base and usually getting slapped in the kisser by a bunch in whingers.
Happes... well you have to have a thick skin if you want to come out in public - else you can always lock yourself in...
The conversations quickly turn hostile and personal either between opposing "fans" or directly at the developer.
Opposing fans are the worst. But a developer who can't take criticism - which usually is based on something - should ignore it if he doesn't like it but not respond in a matter that is offending because his feelings as a daddy are hurt.
It's a wonder any of them still make games for us.
They either want to become rich and/or famous or they don't do it for "us" but for themselves for the pure enjoyment of their hobby.
I think it is better to request feedback in a formal manner with a structured questionaire or a moderated chat with developers. Beta testing with a small group of trusted fans is also vital (but make sure you pick the right ones), but again the beta testers will suggest changes, but ultimatly it's your vision.In the end you as a developer have to have full control of your game, too many cooks spoil the broth, you need the courage to say no, stuff you lot i'm making it my way.
If an indie developer or a fan adventure really only does it this way they have a huge problem. They won't get objective answers since "friends" will usually always say: "oh wow, you did that, thats so awesome". And yes you always can say "no" to suggestions, but you shouldn't wonder when nobody wants to play your game when you ignore good ideas that you didn't want to implement into your game for whatever reasons, except some fanboys and your "forced" friends. And also that you become slapped into the face for publishing something like "that". Again, if you want to become public you have to face the consequences and that includes handling with an audience who in the end are your custumers who spent their valuable time with your "baby" and you kind of have an obligation to do as good as you can. Else, and I say that again: keep it for yourself - don't publish it!
The only other option is to have a thick skin (which you need in any creative endevour) and anonymously read the forum posts and refrain from getting in the middle of it. Life is no childs play! You need a thick skin everywhere and most of it in your profession. This includes that people always should be polite. Sure some are not but that doesn't mean that you should act the same. A real pro never swears at others... ^^
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 1:23pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | I want to ask you all something that's been bugging me for quite some time..
Do you think it's best for the developer to join discussions about an upcoming game, or is it more prudent to just read the comments and keep a safe distance?
Sometimes I feel it's a lose-lose situation. Some people get upset with anything I do. If I enter a conversation with someone who doesn't like my game, trying to understand his points and reasonably defend my actions, it takes about 2-3 posts before someone concludes that I "don't accept constructive criticism". If I don't respond, pretty soon the discussion will evolve to a fight between those who liked my game and those who didn't. Even a few "thank you's" on my part may result to someone saying that I'm "pimping my game with continuous posts".
And there's another problem, it's hard for me to read everything in cold blood and not be emotionally influenced. I recently came across a discussion in a German site, among people who absolutely hated the graphics of Diamonds. The last post of that discussion was from someone who claimed to know me from the AGS forums, who described me a person with an enormous ego. I was deeply disturbed by that disussion (which I did not enter) and, stupid as it may sound, did not work on the game for two whole days as a result.
Aya tells me that my problem is that I'm too "south European" and that I should read all feedback in cold blood. I try to tell myself that the internet is a big place, you'll find people saying the worst things about even the greatest masterpieces, such as Monkey Island 2 or Grim Fandango, so it is only natural if thousands more people hate my humble creations. But telling yourself something is different than actually convincing yourself.
Perhaps the best solution would be to address people privately, in order to avoid the anarchy of a public discussion. I recently exchanged some extremely useful PMs with a JAer, which made me realize some things and take necessary actions.
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 1:58pm |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By alkis21 (23 JUL 2006 1:23pm)
Do you think it's best for the developer to join discussions about an upcoming game, or is it more prudent to just read the comments and keep a safe distance?
For the most part, I like it when a developer enters a thread about their game and joins the discussion. I rarely see it happen outside of the adventure genre though. It shows that person cares and sometimes help deter misinformation if they are mistaken about something.
Yes, you can be attacked, but that's called the internet: Some people take the advantage it provides where you can say the most mean-spirited things and not worry about accountability.
Also, people tend to be more direct when they are discussing something that isn't person-to-person. I know I've had some harsh criticism of a video game, and then the developer shows up on the thread and responds, and I feel a little guilty because if I had known he was going to read my post I probably would have worded it a little more eloquently.
If someone says something negative, I would say you should respond to the points they make. If the person comes back in a constructive manner, than great. But if they continue to be aggressive and belligerent, then just ignore them, because if they can't handle a civilized conversation, then their opinion isn't something to be concerned about. If you ignore them, then eventually they will stop, and if not reveal themselves as a raving ingrate to most other people who read the thread. However, continue to talk to someone who isn't willing to listen, then you'll eventually come off as egotistical because it will seem like you can't stop talking about your game unless you prove that someone's opinion is wrong.
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 3:08pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ogre (23 JUL 2006 12:39pm)
Opposing fans are the worst. But a developer who can't take criticism - which usually is based on something - should ignore it if he doesn't like it but not respond in a matter that is offending because his feelings as a daddy are hurt.
There is a world of difference between taking criticism and having to put up with some of the comments i've seen directed at developers.
They either want to become rich and/or famous or they don't do it for "us" but for themselves for the pure enjoyment of their hobby.
Yeah right rich and famous from making an adventure game in this market.
If an indie developer or a fan adventure really only does it this way they have a huge problem. They won't get objective answers since "friends" will usually always say: "oh wow, you did that, thats so awesome".
That's why I said you need to pick the beta testers carefully. Too many friends and you won't get valid feedback, too many enemies and all you'll get is "this sucks" and change this etc etc.
Beta groups should be based on a focus group of your potential customers and as wide a range as possible.
Remember though feedback includes positives as well as negatives. Praise developers for the bits they get right they might listen to the bits that didn't work. Too often all I see is people too eager to nit pick and point and laugh at the bits they don't like.
And yes you always can say "no" to suggestions, but you shouldn't wonder when nobody wants to play your game when you ignore good ideas that you didn't want to implement into your game for whatever reasons, except some fanboys and your "forced" friends. And also that you become slapped into the face for publishing something like "that". Again, if you want to become public you have to face the consequences and that includes handling with an audience who in the end are your custumers who spent their valuable time with your "baby" and you kind of have an obligation to do as good as you can. Else, and I say that again: keep it for yourself - don't publish it!
Who is to say what is or isn't a good idea. Everybody has what they think is a good idea. You don't make a game by committee (or at least not good ones). Developers need to have the courage to stick to the central idea that made them want to make the game in the first place. Sure there is room to tweak if there is something that isn't working or just doesn't work, but you can't please everone and trying to implement all those differing viewpoints will cost a fortune and the game will never get made. (Besides you would need to watch out for copyright issues when accepting ideas from an online forum incase I sue you for the millions you make on the way to rich and famous on the back of my good idea)
I'm all for the case of developers should only interact with the fans after the game has been released to get constructive critisism for what to take into account for the next game. I firmly believe that developers should lock themselves away from fans until they are finished.
After all you don't see Stephen King asking for crits on his latest book before it's published, or Stephen Spielberg asking us all round to the set to discuss his next shot in his movie. Focus testing etc is all done after the fact even if it means sometimes means going back to re-edit slightly
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 3:10pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By alkis21 (23 JUL 2006 1:23pm)
I want to ask you all something that's been bugging me for quite some time..
Do you think it's best for the developer to join discussions about an upcoming game, or is it more prudent to just read the comments and keep a safe distance?
Kuddles got that totally right.
A developer could just read and take mental notes to improve his future work and still stay totally out of a discussion but when he enters he has to face the consequences. And keeping cool is best, anyways, in all situations even when it is hard at times.
Sometimes I feel it's a lose-lose situation. Some people get upset with anything I do. If I enter a conversation with someone who doesn't like my game, trying to understand his points and reasonably defend my actions, it takes about 2-3 posts before someone concludes that I "don't accept constructive criticism".
You are quite resistent to criticism, but hey everybody has to accept that you do this for your own personal enjoyment and in the way you want. If you don't want to change something that objectively isn't good you need to react in a way like: "I know I could have done this better/different but I wanted to make it my way since else its too much work" or something. Just telling someone who actually wants to help you, "sorry I won't do that" kind of makes people angry since they think their wasted their time commenting.
If I don't respond, pretty soon the discussion will evolve to a fight between those who liked my game and those who didn't.
Fans are always the worst, you can see that every week at soccer matches...
I recently came across a discussion in a German site, among people who absolutely hated the graphics of Diamonds. The last post of that discussion was from someone who claimed to know me from the AGS forums, who described me a person with an enormous ego. I was deeply disturbed by that disussion (which I did not enter) and, stupid as it may sound, did not work on the game for two whole days as a result.
Promise, that was not me! ^^ I wouldn't say such a thing.
But even a comment like this might show you how much you stirr up the indie adventure scene. Just remember that when answering to a post you come over as open minded. Accept other peoples opinions even when they bash your game but explain why you do something or don't (see above). I'm sure then you won't be reading such horrible and unecessary posts about you and people won't feel that you are ignorant of their opinions.
I try to tell myself that the internet is a big place, you'll find people saying the worst things about even the greatest masterpieces, such as Monkey Island 2 or Grim Fandango...
No game is perfect and there is always room for criticism. The more popular something is the more it not just becomes lifted up in the sky by its fans but also critices by people who can't stand the fans lifting it up so high, anymore.
For me it happend with Diablo 1 and 2, I think "Record of Lodoss Wars" on Dreamcast is much, much better - better story, better graphics, more interesting levels and so on. So whenever someone says Diablo is the BEST I say, sorry it has so many glitches it simply isn't since it has bad graphics, automatically generated levels who look all the same and so on... most fans don't want to hear that and become hostile in an instant even though they never even heard about the other game I compared Diablo with.
And also indie games can't be measured with commercial titels but they usually also can't compare with them. Most people will play them with a different view and that is fine.
Perhaps the best solution would be to address people privately, in order to avoid the anarchy of a public discussion. I recently exchanged some extremely useful PMs with a JAer, which made me realize some things and take necessary actions.
A personal discussion is certainly very frutitious especially since others can't interfer and let it get out of hand. Also you can get into more detail.
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 3:45pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (23 JUL 2006 3:08pm)
There is a world of difference between taking criticism and having to put up with some of the comments i've seen directed at developers.
If the developers answers to an insulting post instead of ignoring it he is no better then the one who started the flame. Some "kiddies" just can't behave themselves, we all know that. But the worst is to respond to it instead of ignoring that.
Yeah right rich and famous from making an adventure game in this market.
Many developers even of free indie games have made themself a name in the scene, right? So they are famous! Of course not as famous as Madonna but many people know them. And don't tell me they don't bath themself in the fame and enjoy good feedback! The problem is, you can't have the advantages of something without the disadvantages! And where you get blessings you also will get swears, simply as that. And I bet there are also many indie game makers who hope to be hired by a company one day since it happens sometimes and turn their hobby into a job. Most are of course more realistic.
That's why I said you need to pick the beta testers carefully. Too many friends and you won't get valid feedback, too many enemies and all you'll get is "this sucks" and change this etc etc.
Agreed!
Beta groups should be based on a focus group of your potential customers and as wide a range as possible.
Exactly!
Remember though feedback includes positives as well as negatives. Praise developers for the bits they get right they might listen to the bits that didn't work. Too often all I see is people too eager to nit pick and point and laugh at the bits they don't like.
But usually you get this bad comments after someone else praised it a bit too much I think.
Who is to say what is or isn't a good idea. Everybody has what they think is a good idea. You don't make a game by committee (or at least not good ones). Developers need to have the courage to stick to the central idea that made them want to make the game in the first place....
Yes and this is were amateurs fail misarably when they finish their project. You see even a simple writer for a fictional story of a weekly magazine has guidelines he has to follow. These guidelines are made to be able to reach and please the widest audience possible. Those guidelines usually exactly declare how detailled s*x is allowed or to not use too difficult foreign words and so on. Else the author can completely stick to his likes. Same applies for all media may that be movies, music or games. So if the idea a game developer has is absolutely opposite to such "mass compatible" guidelines he should not wonder too much when he fails miserably. Examples for games who will fail to reach more then just some fanboys would be: release on Linux only since windows is evil, too many spelling mistakes or badly written text in general, using 320x240 pixels resolutions despite the fact that most people today have a 19 inch screen, using that cool looking font that is so damn difficult to read, using a photograph here and a hand painted object there since painting all or photographing all was inconvienent so that the whole thing looks like it was smashed together instead of using a style that makes it look like one piece and so on.
I'm all for the case of developers should only interact with the fans after the game has been released to get constructive critisism for what to take into account for the next game. I firmly believe that developers should lock themselves away from fans until they are finished. It's ok if they do so but again when they do it they shouldn't wonder when their actual product will fail misarably since its their taste only. Companies usually kinda know what the custumers want else they wouldn't have invested money in it but even they sometimes fail...
After all you don't see Stephen King asking for crits on his latest book before it's published, or Stephen Spielberg asking us all round to the set to discuss his next shot in his movie. Focus testing etc is all done after the fact even if it means sometimes means going back to re-edit slightly
Because they already know the basic guidelines what they can do or can't. They had to learn it when they started their professions. This is called mainstream. They wouldn't do other even if they actually wanted. You can do different and when you are lucky you find some fans who declare it as art since its so different but you won't reach the masses. These are limits people like Stephen King or Steven Spielburg would never cross since they want to please the masses.
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 3:53pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | I think it's a good thing for the developer to get involved within reason. You definitely don't want to get into fights or arguments. It probably helps to know the personalities involved so you can take things in stride.
I think it doesn't help when you get a big fan of your game in their attacking people who gave some criticisms. I've seen that happen with Other Worlds, Tears of Betrayal, and most recently with Al Emmo. All of those games did have some obvious short-comings and that's fine, but when some posters get ripped on for critiquing those things then things can get out of hand. I don't see that as the developers fault unless its the developer doing the attacking.
The only time I think the developer brings it on themselves is when they over-hype their game. People do read your websites and you should be pretty careful about what you say. Some indies pump their games (and themselves) up with such huge promises that even large commercial developers wouldn't even say. When you do things like that, people are going to be less forgiving about little quirks in your game and make it a point not to overlook certain aspects.
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| 23 JUL 2006 at 6:22pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6694
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
I've been involved in numerous online game developer chats that never turned the least bit nasty. But those were well organized, announced in advanced and properly moderated by the hosts. They were not free-for-alls nor were they the result of a gamemaker just surfing the net and randomly dropping into forum discussions unannounced.
The latter is a dangerous habit IMO, especially if a developer chooses to engage in mudslinging (no matter the cause) with his own potential fans because he is doing himself a lot more harm than good. First, he is acting very unprofessionally and second, he is adding to the problem in a very counter-productive way.
I think controlled discussions, surveys / polls and focus group testing are a great deal better for all concerned. The same gripes are heard and noted as are the positive suggestions and constructive criticisms. But this should (mostly) be done behind the scenes in a way that allows the developer or his representatives to qualify the participants in advance or at least set an agenda to frame and guide open discussions.
On the importance of identifying and qualifying respondents - It is vital to know who the they are, what demographic / psychographic profile they fit and whether or not they are even potential customers before making any judgements about the specific relevance of their answers. However, a certain amount of open (blind) polling is also a good method of gathering raw data. But the results must be viewed with the proper perspective, then objectively analyzed and translated into useful, reliable information that decisions can be based on.
In the end, those decisions simply cannot be influenced unduly by personal issues or emotional reactions on the part of the developer. If they are, the results will almost always be bad.
Cheers, Terry
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| 24 JUL 2006 at 3:14pm |
anthonyJourneyman
Posts : 1270
Joined: 11 JUN 2003
Status : Offline | If I were a developer I would not participate in threads discussing my game except to drop in (once or twice) to introduce myself and to thank people in advance for their comments.
Once you start addressing constructive criticism by explaining why you did things a certain way, you will begin to sound defensive. You will see destructive criticism and you will start to get angry. You will see criticism with which you disagree and you will come off as argumentative. Pretty soon, posters will start coming out of the woodwork, even those who liked the game, to say that the game is dogshit just to get a rise out of you.
I would also ask my friends not to post on the thread. I already know what they think and they arguing in favor of my game would make it seem as if they were carrying water for me. It will build resentment.
Alkis, Aya's advice won't work either. There is no amount of mental gymnastics that will allow you to eliminate your cultural nature and temperment while reading posts. You are not, and never will be, Norwegian. Don't even try. Just be patient. Over time, even a person with strong Southern European traits can learn to deal with the harshest of criticism without it affecting his confidence. This, I know.
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| 24 JUL 2006 at 6:40pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | I was leaning towards that decision myself.
From now on, I will refrain from entering any discussions on our company or our upcoming game, unless I'm asked a direct question or unless I have some work in progress to report.
Feel free to rant everyone.
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| 24 JUL 2006 at 6:53pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | LOL, I guess this explains why you rarely see Chris Brendell, Jonathan Boakes, Matt Clark and Bryan Weigele on the forums, and Agustin seems to have disappeared too!
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| 24 JUL 2006 at 6:59pm |
percyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 9
Joined: 20 JUL 2006
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ogre (23 JUL 2006 3:10pm)
For me it happend with Diablo 1 and 2, I think "Record of Lodoss Wars" on Dreamcast is much, much better - better story, better graphics, more interesting levels and so on. So whenever someone says Diablo is the BEST I say, sorry it has so many glitches it simply isn't since it has bad graphics, automatically generated levels who look all the same and so on... most fans don't want to hear that and become hostile in an instant even though they never even heard about the other game I compared Diablo with.
:-/ this is what happens when people who don't know what the are talking but tries to sound clever anyway.
i didn't actually know of the existence of the game, record of lodoss wars. however, i have seen the anime series. i searched a bit round for it, and i must say you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
considering the fact that record of lodoss wars is just a complete IMITATION of diablo 2 in almost every possible detail. record of lodoss wars has terrible cgi scenes (one area where blizzard beats everyone), and remember, diablo 2 cutscenes was done, what, 9-10 years ago. im still waiting for a blizzard cgi movie. not only that, but the graphics of lodoss wars is dull and bad use of colours, you cant even play with the main character of the anime series (parn), and you have only ONE playable character against SEVEN of diablo 2. diablo 2 certainly has great graphics (if you compare it to the time it was released). the 'automatically generated levels who look all the same' is only a problem in diablo 1 (and i didnt like that either), but definetely not in diablo 2. the worlds are rich with detail.
i dont know the story of the game, but i do know the story of the anime series, and if the game is anything like that, then even in this department diablo has the upper hand. (though, the game's story might be different). add to that the great history blizzard always creates for their games (included in the manuals)
there is one thing you falied to mention. and that is gameplay. that is the main reason so many people are in love with diablo. no diablo-clone has come close to it.
lastly, you are comparing different consoles. :-/
i think you are mistaking people's frustration-with-your-lack-of-knowledge with them becoming hostile. its very easy to say something "has bad graphics", but please explain to me why it has such bad graphics. what was the glitches. and what made lodoss wars so much better in these aspects. because i dont see it. i wonder if you've even seen diablo 2.
next your going to tell me monkey island 1 has bad graphics just because it has a low resolution.
sorry for going of topic. :-X
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