| 19 JUL 2006 at 6:08pm |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Well, I never understood why a walkthrough - official or otherwise - was desirable or necessary before the game was released. The reason given here on the forum for posting it on JA seemed to me flaky, at best.
Similarly for a 'review'.
If the game isn't finished yet, then how can it be reviewed?!
Surely, all you're reviewing is concepts not actual gameplay?
Isn't it more correctly a preview? Sure, you can get a taste of the overall game, but how can you review something that got changed two days ago and days/weeks after the review?
Some of the changes that were mentioned to the GUI here on the forum by the developers, suggest that that would make the game likely to reviewed in a more favorable light (later, when the game's actually released). That must be good for the developers?
As an Internet site doesn't have printing deadlines like magazines, why the rush anyway?
Seems all round that the decisions you made - or were forced to make - would suit the majority of gamers... and developers alike.
It's a shame there are a few people in the adventure community who think their time and efforts are more important than everyone else's. Mentioning no names of course and I do NOT mean your good self Randy.
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| 19 JUL 2006 at 8:07pm |
Randy-JAJourneyman
Posts : 1351
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Wanderer
We supposedly received a final version of the game, we do not knowingly post reviews of betas. We were also under the assumption that the game was near release.
Be that as it may, it has nothing at all to do with the posting of the w/t. I have seen strategy guides for sale a month before a game's release. As far as I know, no one has ever been forced to purchase a strategy guide and read it before the release of the game, nor, as far as I know, did JA point a gun to anyone's head and force them to read the Al Emmo w/t. Unfortunatley, this is just a matter of who can cry boo hoo the loudest, but I don't want to play so I capitulated.
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| 19 JUL 2006 at 9:32pm |
anthonyJourneyman
Posts : 1270
Joined: 11 JUN 2003
Status : Offline | I don't get it. This is journalism. Writing review and walkthroughs are components of journalism. Journalists try to get the scoop on other sources by being the first to publish something. When that occurs, you get rewarded with notoriety. The risk is that you rush too much and you get things wrong. But that's the nature of the trade.
Who is harmed by a premature review or walkthrough? As I understand it, people write these things for gratis. If they get a bit of pleasure on being the first to do something, why should we begrudge them for that?
Now, if the review or walkthrough sucks, that is entirely another matter.
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| 19 JUL 2006 at 10:41pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By anthony (19 JUL 2006 9:32pm)
Now, if the review or walkthrough sucks, that is entirely another matter.
..or if the game is going through some major changes based on feedback and makes the reviews and/or walkthroughs incorrect. [smiley=shrug.gif]
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 1:41am |
| Deleted User | ~~ Randy ~~
I’m sorry you got your fingers burnt over this.
I explained very clearly on this thread the unusual & unique circumstances which lead to the posting of the Al Emmo full game walkthrough, leading to it being the first time (out of 36) that one of my walkthroughs (in this particular case, also for the first time in association with a better walkthrough writer than myself) has ever been posted before the game has been officially released.
I am most surprised that this trivial kafuffle seems to have been caused not by anybody who has beta-tested the game & supported it FULLY & WHOLEHEARTEDLY (despite certain drawbacks), but by folk who have had some quite negative criticisms to make (under a wafer thin guise of being constructive & helpful).
I did not intend to reply to some childish remarks that the walkthrough was released for “bragging” purposes. It had nothing whatsoever to do with wanting to be the ‘first kid on the block’ (at 82 y.o. I’m quite a bit past that anyhow).
The reason is simple & crystal clear. I have NEVER EVER posted a walkthrough after somebody else has done so for fear of consciously or subconsciously being influenced, and copying somebody else’s original work. Being first to post means that I could not possibly have plagiarized anybody else’s efforts… which incidentally has been done to me on some occasions. Others who post afterwards frequently produce far better walkthroughs than mine… but at least I know that mine is **ORIGINAL**, “warts & all”.
*** If that is 'bragging'… so be it. I’m not prepared to argue!
Finally:- it is an indisputable fact that my walkthroughs (and others I’m sure) have been copied without informing me, let alone asking my permission.
In the case of the full Al Emmo walkthrough, apart from one other Site that we DID give permission to post, I have already seen TWO other unauthorized copies on the Net. There are almost certainly more! (… since I surface the Net a lot, I am continually shocked by stumbling quite by chance upon Sites that I have never ever even heard of, let alone been in any contact with, who have uploaded my walkthroughs without ever consulting me).
So the net result of whoever has precipitated this temporary removal of the walkthrough has simply affected JA+ whilst leaving the walkthrough available to some other Sites who have not been subject to presures for whatever motives!
I don’t know whether that is/was a perspicacious move.
I explained ALL the above even more fully to the Developers, and added that that ‘premature’ posting was likely to lead to MORE interest & sales for the game, and cannot possibly cause any financial or other damage... in fact the exact opposite!
This is the very last word I intend to write on the subject.
I may be right, or may be wrong, but I haven’t got the time, energy or 'stomach' to enter into further argumentation on this pure storm in a teacup!
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 3:36am |
GameDevBritIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 15
Joined: 9 APR 2006
Status : Online | Hi guys,
Thanks for removing the walkthrough and review temporarily, Randy. I appreciate your quick action regarding this matter.
It seems that everybody has differing opinions on the matter. I personally feel that reviews and walkthroughs should be available near the game's release time, as it could provide a purchaser with the information necessary to decide if it's a title he or she will be looking forward to. I would assume we're all mature enough to know whether or not the walkthrough is something that will spoil the game for us, and if it is, either wait on reading it or only read portions of it.
It is a shame that this became such a big issue, but again, I appreciate your quick action. We had to request that everyone take down their walkthroughs to be fair. If anyone knows of any other walkthroughs that are available online, feel free to email us at contact@himalayastudios.com and we'll go ahead and look into it.
The good news is, the walkthroughs should be available for posting again soon since we're nearing the shipping date. It shouldn't be too much longer now, and you'll all have the chance to read Len's fantastic walkthrough once more (thank you Len for all your hard work!!), and read the great review.
Britney Brimhall&&Chairman & CEO&&Himalaya Studios, LLC&&http://www.himalayastudios.com
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 10:09am |
| Deleted User | I promised not to add anything to my previous post.
However (and this may sound smug on my part) I cannot refrain from congratulating Britney on the mature & diplomatic way in which she has reacted to this affair!
The 2 totally freeware King’s Quest games were a delight and the work put into them was superb. They are both pure free **gifts** to all Quest/Adventurers.
Al Emmo is Himalaya’s first venture into the commercial world. Of course there are some details which are open to criticism (WHAT GAME ISN’T ?) depending upon personal subjective likes & dislikes. There are also some aspects which I’m pretty sure that many players will love and others dislike.
However, overall IMHO, this is a thoroughly enjoyable humorous romp which fully deserves great success as a springboard for further entertaining games.
Their (hopefully) next game may not necessarily be a lighthearted masterpiece. But, as a counterweight to the vast majority of heavy, Gothic, Sci-Fi, dramatic games which are released one after the other in different shapes & forms, a good healthy belly laugh is like a breath of fresh air.
All in all, I wish Al Emmo the very best of commercial success which I am truly convinced it fully deserves!
***** P.S. ***** (later on)!
I would like to thank all parties concerned who contributed to solving this completely minor shindig with the minimum (or zero) acrimony, and those who refrained from purely personal diatribes.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 10:20am |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | GameDevBrit
It was really refreshing to see the points made by Ivinia, Wimli and others which were singly and unjustly written off as negative criticism, perceived in their true light by the developers and resulting in what would appear to be beneficial changes for the game.
Also, it's very refreshing now, to see your actions in this matter appearing to be motivated by ethical considerations and principles which apply across the board, rather than those of certain individuals who appear motivated by principles of self-importance and paranoia.
May I wish you every success with the game.
I for one am very much looking forward to its release after reading some of the previews.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 1:28pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | i don't see anything wrong in posting a review before a game is released, as long as the review is based on a review copy, or any other kind of full version of the game, that will not go under serious changes between the review and its release... correcting some spelling errors in the meantime doesn't invalidate the review, as long as the review doesn't mention spelling errors as a negative of course! actually, there are lots of ppl who are waiting to read reviews before buying a game, and posting reviews before the release date can help them decide soon and maybe even preorder (and be part of any benefits preorders offer)
as for w/ts, imo they can be posted months before a release date, as long as there are no changes in the game that will affect the w/t... as mentioned above, nobody forces anyone to read a w/t, so what is wrong with it being there beforehand? actually, there may be ppl who like that... they may want to print it, and have it ready to play using the printout
in a nutshell, as long as there are no changes, reviews and w/ts are fine when they're posted before a games release date, so i do not understand why all the fuss
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 2:23pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (20 JUL 2006 10:09am)
I promised not to add anything to my previous post.
However (and this may sound smug on my part) I cannot refrain from congratulating Britney on the mature & diplomatic way in which she has reacted to this affair!
The 2 totally freeware King’s Quest games were a delight and the work put into them was superb. They are both pure free **gifts** to all Quest/Adventurers.
Al Emmo is Himalaya’s first venture into the commercial world. Of course there are some details which are open to criticism (WHAT GAME ISN’T ?) depending upon personal subjective likes & dislikes. There are also some aspects which I’m pretty sure that many players will love and others dislike.
However, overall IMHO, this is a thoroughly enjoyable humorous romp which fully deserves great success as a springboard for further entertaining games.
Their (hopefully) next game may not necessarily be a lighthearted masterpiece. But, as a counterweight to the vast majority of heavy, Gothic, Sci-Fi, dramatic games which are released one after the other in different shapes & forms, a good healthy belly laugh is like a breath of fresh air.
All in all, I wish Al Emmo the very best of commercial success which I am truly convinced it fully deserves!
***** P.S. ***** later on)!
I would like to thank all parties concerned who contributed to solving this completely minor shindig with the minimum (or zero) acrimony, and those who refrained from purely personal diatribes.
Of course you want them to succeed.. that's why you posted a glowing review to the forums of EVERY adventure site... it looks forced as a marketting ploy btw...
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 3:20pm |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya (20 JUL 2006 1:28pm)
...
as for w/ts, imo they can be posted months before a release date, as long as there are no changes in the game that will affect the w/t... as mentioned above, nobody forces anyone to read a w/t, so what is wrong with it being there beforehand? actually, there may be ppl who like that... they may want to print it, and have it ready to play using the printout
in a nutshell, as long as there are no changes, reviews and w/ts are fine when they're posted before a games release date, so i do not understand why all the fuss
I'm not sure why people want to keep stating the obvious, in that nobody is forced into reading... anything. How would you implement that practically anyway? A pop-up window or something?
Perhaps - I'm not certain - the 'fuss' could be explained by trudysgarden's comments which were:
Spyglass Guides was asked by Himalaya to write the "Official Al Emmo and the Lost Dutchman's Mine" guide. And we did. It has a ton of exclusive history and content and will be released after the game itself is released. We patiently awaited the green light from Himalaya before we even announced the fact that we would have it on the site.
It was very disappointing to us to see this whole situation unfold. I don't pretend to understand any of the reasoning behind the release of any walkthrough before a single game has been sold. And I'm sorry but I believe it was stictly an egotisical move.
happy trails,
Carolyn
If, that's the case then it's one of principle?
Otherwise, who cares whether the walkthrough is here or not? To state the obvious again, it would have been useful for those who found it useful.
As regards the review... it wasn't. At best it was a preview. As Randy said, he was under the impression that it was a final version of the game, but apparently not.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 4:04pm |
anthonyJourneyman
Posts : 1270
Joined: 11 JUN 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Wanderer (20 JUL 2006 3:19pm)
Perhaps - I'm not certain - the 'fuss' could be explained by trudysgarden's comments which were:
Spyglass Guides was asked by Himalaya to write the "Official Al Emmo and the Lost Dutchman's Mine" guide. And we did. It has a ton of exclusive history and content and will be released after the game itself is released. We patiently awaited the green light from Himalaya before we even announced the fact that we would have it on the site.
It was very disappointing to us to see this whole situation unfold. I don't pretend to understand any of the reasoning behind the release of any walkthrough before a single game has been sold. And I'm sorry but I believe it was stictly an egotisical move.
happy trails,
Carolyn
If, that's the case then it's one of principle?
Okay, so what's the principle?
Maybe I'm missing something, but, as I see it, the developer owns the rights to the game, not the rights to create walkthroughs or write reviews. It's nice that Himalaya entered into this arrangement with Spyglass Guides, but email states Spyglass was granted the right to produce an "Official" guide, not the right to release the first guide or walkthrough or the only guide or walkthrough. Those rights cannot be granted by a developer because they do not belong to the developer in the first place.
Here, the developer requested a site to pull a walkthrough because it would prefer that it not be released just yet. What's next? A developer requesting a site to pull a review because they would prefer that it be more positive about the game?
Well, what's done is done.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 4:42pm |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Perhaps common courtesy?
If it had been me that had written the walkthrough and I was given that information, knowing that that they were disappointed with the situation, I would have asked Randy to withdraw it without having to be requested to do so by the developers.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 6:43pm |
| Deleted User | I know that I promised not to write anything further on this subject … but I guess promises are made to be broken!!
I can’t possibly resist the following… it’s too too rich, and I feel duty bound (ethically, as was mentioned) to own up to my dirty little secret!! [smiley=sorry.gif]
~~ Shadow9d9 ~~ Of course you want them to succeed.. that's why you posted a glowing review to the forums of EVERY adventure site... it looks forced as a marketting ploy btw...
Yet again I mention that I’ve beta-tested over 2 dozen games and at present am testing 5 more (in different stages) simultaneously. Also I’ve written over 3 dozen (‘original’ he-he) walkthroughs.
For ALL the above I have not requested nor received a Cent, Penny, Euro, Yen, Shekel, whatever, in cash or kind (this can easily be substantiated in a Court of Law).
But when it comes/came to Al Emmo (not sure why THAT particular game) !!??#$%^&??!!
I made a private arrangement with Britney Brimhall to receive a 25% cut on every game sold. [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
So naturally “Of course I want them to succeed.. that's why I posted a glowing review to the forums of EVERY adventure site... it DEFINITELY IS forced as a marketting ploy btw...”
Wouldn’t you ??? [smiley=silly.gif]
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 7:04pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (20 JUL 2006 6:43pm)
I made a private arrangement with Britney Brimhall to receive a 25% cut on every game sold. [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
Well, so much for 'private', eh?
Not only were you responsible for creating animosity with potential customers by fighting with them but you are also taking a share of the profits...nice.
My interest in purchasing Al Emmo has just officially reached ZERO.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 8:00pm |
trudysgardenSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 312
Joined: 19 JUL 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By anthony (20 JUL 2006 4:04pm)
Originally Posted By Wanderer (20 JUL 2006 3:19pm)
Perhaps - I'm not certain - the 'fuss' could be explained by trudysgarden's comments which were:
Spyglass Guides was asked by Himalaya to write the "Official Al Emmo and the Lost Dutchman's Mine" guide. And we did. It has a ton of exclusive history and content and will be released after the game itself is released. We patiently awaited the green light from Himalaya before we even announced the fact that we would have it on the site.
It was very disappointing to us to see this whole situation unfold. I don't pretend to understand any of the reasoning behind the release of any walkthrough before a single game has been sold. And I'm sorry but I believe it was stictly an egotisical move.
happy trails,
Carolyn
If, that's the case then it's one of principle?
Okay, so what's the principle?
Maybe I'm missing something, but, as I see it, the developer owns the rights to the game, not the rights to create walkthroughs or write reviews. It's nice that Himalaya entered into this arrangement with Spyglass Guides, but email states Spyglass was granted the right to produce an "Official" guide, not the right to release the first guide or walkthrough or the only guide or walkthrough. Those rights cannot be granted by a developer because they do not belong to the developer in the first place.
Here, the developer requested a site to pull a walkthrough because it would prefer that it not be released just yet. What's next? A developer requesting a site to pull a review because they would prefer that it be more positive about the game?
Well, what's done is done.
Actually I am not a party to this witchhunt. I asked Len about it in private correspondence and we discussed it in a civilized non hostile way. Neither did we demand any actions be taken by anyone towards anyone else. Yes, I used the word 'disappointed' here - pretty strong stuff compared to some of the words tossed around on this thread, eh? We are/were 'disappointed' but not outraged, incensed or otherwise foaming at the mouth about anything. We are aware of the difference between "Official" and "first to print" and even the word 'exclusive' - no worries.
Look for the witches in black/grey. At Spyglass we all wear pink/white. We are the good witches and we have never asked anyone to shut up yet
happy trails,
Carolyn
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 8:32pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (20 JUL 2006 6:43pm)
I know that I promised not to write anything further on this subject … but I guess promises are made to be broken!!
I can’t possibly resist the following… it’s too too rich, and I feel duty bound (ethically, as was mentioned) to own up to my dirty little secret!! [smiley=sorry.gif]
~~ Shadow9d9 ~~ Of course you want them to succeed.. that's why you posted a glowing review to the forums of EVERY adventure site... it looks forced as a marketting ploy btw...
Yet again I mention that I’ve beta-tested over 2 dozen games and at present am testing 5 more (in different stages) simultaneously. Also I’ve written over 3 dozen (‘original’ he-he) walkthroughs.
For ALL the above I have not requested nor received a Cent, Penny, Euro, Yen, Shekel, whatever, in cash or kind (this can easily be substantiated in a Court of Law).
But when it comes/came to Al Emmo (not sure why THAT particular game) !!??#$%^&??!!
I made a private arrangement with Britney Brimhall to receive a 25% cut on every game sold. [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
So naturally “Of course I want them to succeed.. that's why I posted a glowing review to the forums of EVERY adventure site... it DEFINITELY IS forced as a marketting ploy btw...”
Wouldn’t you ??? [smiley=silly.gif]
By saying yet again, I assume that it's been suggested before... Spamming forums with a glowing review just seems crooked... How bout putting it in the "reader review" sections instead of the general forums at least... then it would at least LOOK like you were impartial...
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 9:08pm |
BazzaLBPrivate Detective
Posts : 512
Joined: 27 AUG 2005
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (20 JUL 2006 7:04pm)
Originally Posted By LenG (20 JUL 2006 6:43pm)
I made a private arrangement with Britney Brimhall to receive a 25% cut on every game sold. [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
Well, so much for 'private', eh?
Not only were you responsible for creating animosity with potential customers by fighting with them but you are also taking a share of the profits...nice.
My interest in purchasing Al Emmo has just officially reached ZERO.
Hmmm, I thought Len's comments were tongue in cheek
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 9:09pm |
| Deleted User | ~~ Ivinia ~~
Quote from LenG on Today at 2:42pm:
I made a private arrangement with Britney Brimhall to receive a 25% cut on every game sold.
*************************************
Well, so much for 'private', eh?
Not only were you responsible for creating animosity with potential customers by fighting with them but you are also taking a share of the profits...nice.
My interest in purchasing Al Emmo has just officially reached ZERO.
I can't POSSIBLY believe this! [smiley=doh.gif]
Surely you jest !! [smiley=rofl.gif]
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 9:22pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | The moment I read Len's post, I knew some people would take it literally... :
Care for a cut on Diamond's profits, Len? I can use some glorious reviews on every site in the world when the time comes. [img]http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/animated/duck.gif[/img]
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 9:29pm |
BazzaLBPrivate Detective
Posts : 512
Joined: 27 AUG 2005
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Can we please move the Al Emmo threads to the P&R forum where they will feel more at home
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 10:13pm |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Lay down a proverbial banana skin, then laugh when someone falls flat on their face from it.
Lame joke, even more lousy attitude for gloating about it afterwards. [smiley=shaking_head.gif]
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 10:19pm |
percyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 9
Joined: 20 JUL 2006
Status : Online | well, reading leng's nonsense in this and the other al emmo threads, he is doing much more harm to al emmo than helping. (i know he wasnt serious about the 25$) but he is giving al emmo a very bad image.
i dont see why himalaya are patrolling the internet to search for al emmo threads, and then trying to convince people to think what they want them to think of the game. i dont see any other companies doing this.
and king's quest 1 and 2 being free "gifts". i dont know if you know this, but there are thousands of freeware games out there. a lot of them with much more work put into (and technical know-how.) which looks much better. stop bringing up this stupid point.
and as to "lighthearted", more forced humour which isnt funny.
oh, and alkis, poser is a no-no.
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| 20 JUL 2006 at 10:34pm |
| Deleted User | The moment I read Len's post, I knew some people would take it literally...
Care for a cut on Diamond's profits, Len? I can use some glorious reviews on every site in the world when the time comes.
He-he! [smiley=angel_smiley.gif]
You know what Alkis ... since we've known each other longer, I'll only take a 20% cut from EVERY sale of Diamonds in the Rough!
Actually between you & me, although I've known her (not in the Biblical sense) for a much shorter time, unless I'm much mistaken she's a lovely lady.
She seems pretty brilliant & very attractive also. Pity I'm so long in the tooth! [smiley=shrug.gif]
Actually... I wouldn't have stood a chance even 60 years ago.
I'm not certain that my facts are correct, but I think that her (Himalaya) partner, Christopher Warren, is a handsome 6 foot Aussie, who apart from being a superb computer-games guy, was also once an actor and took the part of Al Emmo ... a more unlikely role one could hardly imagine! [smiley=umbrella_grin.gif]
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